T773ER From United States, joined Dec 2006, 273 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10212 times:
Boeing sees demand for bigger 787
Tuesday November 13, 12:24 pm ET
By Jason Neely, European Aerospace & Airlines Correspondent
"DUBAI (Reuters) - Boeing Co (NYSE:BA - News) is close to defining the market for a bigger version of its new 787 Dreamliner aircraft and is in talks to sell some 200, the chief executive of Boeing Commercial Airplanes told Reuters on Tuesday."
"We're within a few months of defining the centre of the market," Scott Carson said in an interview at the Dubai Air Show."
"There are six to eight (sales) campaigns around the world (for the planned stretched 787-10) and each one wants a different thing," Carson said, adding that customers were looking for about 200 planes.
Scbriml From United Kingdom (England), joined Jul 2003, 8897 posts, RR: 50 Reply 2, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10065 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quote: He said some would-be customers want as many as 425 seats and a plane that can fly perhaps 5,000 miles, while others are looking for 380 seats as long as it can fly 7,500 miles.
Given that range of requests, it will be very interesting to see where Boeing targets the -10.
There will be plenty of time. First, they get the current models into service. Then, most of the serious problems with the -10 will also be solved. After all, they are actually, at this moment, already producing most of what will also be the -10 model.
In almost every important aspect, they are years ahead of the competition. The only area where they are second is sales. As Airbus has shown with the 350, that can change at any time.
TWFirst From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Apr 2000, 6024 posts, RR: 57 Reply 5, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9803 times:
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2): Given that range of requests, it will be very interesting to see where Boeing targets the -10.
Sphealey From United States, joined May 2005, 296 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9768 times:
Impossible - we have been _assured_ that the 787 will explode into shards of toxic plastic on first flight and that Boeing are fully aware of this. No way would they spend money on engineering a 787-10.
sPh
Hmm - no "sarcasm off" tag in the a.net easy editor...
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 8518 posts, RR: 33 Reply 7, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9644 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 4): In almost every important aspect, they are years ahead of the competition. The only area where they are second is sales. As Airbus has shown with the 350, that can change at any time.
That's quite an exception; I had a friend who was better than me in almost every subject at school, the one exception being that I scored higher marks than he did. I'm just using that as an illustration: being ahead of the competition means selling more than them. Boeing has just lost a major potential 787-10 customer because of its delays. It may not be the last one. Airbus has recovered from the dog's dinner that was the launch/re-launch of the A350/XWB and is now seen as a credible competitor; it has a good list of customers and that can only help confidence.
I really do look forward to the 787-10 and hope it's a huge success for them, just as the other models have been, but I do think they lost valuable time.
"What are we going to do tonight, Brain?" "Same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world".
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 15826 posts, RR: 63 Reply 9, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9474 times:
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2): Given that range of requests, it will be very interesting to see where Boeing targets the -10.
My guess is ~7500nm at ~300 seats with a ~550,000lb MTOW.
That slots in between the A350-800 and A350-900 in terms of capacity and within 600nm of the A350-900's range (assuming that doesn't shrink any more, and Randy Baseler felt it would).
Quoting Starrion (Reply 3): A little late methinks. They really need to get more engineering in place. Important campaigns will be lost and some have been lost because this wasn't done sooner
The reality is that it is not as simple or as quick as some people think to engineer...
JayinKitsap From United States, joined Nov 2005, 649 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9424 times:
Gees!
So Boeing has sold out production for over 5 years and could probably keep the 787 line running at max capacity just doing the 787-3,8, & 10. But no, they should jump into the fray because the 787 is selling so poorly it should spend piles of cash just a year or two before getting a treasure trove of actual performance data on the CFRP, the barrel approach, the bleedless engines, the new APU, the new power and control busses.
It is so incredibly urgent that Boeing launch today the 787-10, the 787-11, the 787-9ER, and the 787-10ER, etc. The 787 sales are so miserable this year only 288 so far.
I think Boeing would rather be methodical to have any added models to be a real winner, not necessarily first to market. Oh wait, if they EIS the -10 in 2014 it is likely first to market.
That is also not to mention that the current spike in oil costs may be temporary or may be permanent. If permanent, the simple stretch to have the lowest CASM on flights under 6,000 nm might be the best.
I would think the Airbus camp should be just smugly happy that Boeing hasn't done the -10, et al yet. Maybe they are worried that a carefully thought out design that takes in the latest technology might be very hard to beat.
Shenzhen From United States, joined Jun 2003, 1661 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9250 times:
Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 10): t is so incredibly urgent that Boeing launch today the 787-10, the 787-11, the 787-9ER, and the 787-10ER, etc. The 787 sales are so miserable this year only 288 so far.
Any serious airline discussing the 787-10 with Boeing probably have just about as much info on it as they would on the A350, An airplane doesn't need to be "official" to be discussed in a serious manner.
I tend to agree with your post..... 48 customers thus far for the 787
FCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2113 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9196 times:
Probably the first airline to be courtised by Boeing for the dash 10 would be Qantas, which is rumoured to be on the verge to place an A350 order. The second one should be BAW.Lufthansa should also be in the target.
I believe with the dash 10 , this is really the beginning of the battle between A350 and 787.
Both 787-10 and A350 are very similar.
Why Boeing has waited to lose the EK order to react ?
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9765 posts, RR: 51 Reply 15, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9211 times:
I think Boeing has been discussing the 787-10 with airlines like EK for two years now.
I guess we can forget the perception the 787 can be easily stretched.
I think Boeing will end up launching a 787 HGW variant just like they did with the 777.It's a significant investment & needs a lot of attention. Getting the 787 meet its specifications, getting the production up to steam and delivering the first 200 airframes is priority #1 I guess. It provides the slightly larger XWB to claim marketshare, even if it will EIS in 2013.
AndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8956 times:
Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 10): So Boeing has sold out production for over 5 years and could probably keep the 787 line running at max capacity just doing the 787-3,8, & 10. But no, they should jump into the fray because the 787 is selling so poorly it should spend piles of cash just a year or two before getting a treasure trove of actual performance data on the CFRP, the barrel approach, the bleedless engines, the new APU, the new power and control busses.
Indeed! Makes it sound as if the 787 sales are poor. May I remind readers that Airbus has provided no competition for the low end of the 787 market. And we have seen great success in how the 787/A350 can easily split the market. The 787 has almost 1000 sales, w/o having major 757/767 operators ordering the 787, yet.
Quoting FCKC (Reply 14): Why Boeing has waited to lose the EK order to react ?
Frankly, I wouldn't place much importance in an EK order. But my reasonings are for another thread.
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15): Getting the 787 meet its specifications, getting the production up to steam and delivering the first 200 airframes is priority #1 I guess
It better be priority #1. NOBODY has experience with this type of airframe, and to commit into further unknowns can lead to severe trouble. There is a learning curve with CFRP airframes that will take years to figure out. No doubt there are many airlines willing to let others be the guinea pigs first. And I wouldn't doubt that Airbus will take whatever lessons Boeing learns with the 787 and apply these lessons to their products.
Chiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 401 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8914 times:
Quoting FCKC (Reply 14): Why Boeing has waited to lose the EK order to react ?
I think that if Boeing will announce this now, then they already had the specs two days ago when EK made the A350 order.
In other words ... the proposed B787-10 was not what EK wanted.
And I could only guess that Qantas also had these specs when they claimed they were close to order the A350.
But this is only specualtion.
DL767captain From United States, joined Mar 2007, 1678 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8825 times:
good move by boeing, if EK really wanted this plane they would have waited for it, it will be launched soon, but they might still want it. We dont know what it will offer, it could compliment the A350
I start to wonder if all those predicted sales will come from the US carriers, for DL CO AA and maybe UA it could be a great 772 replacement
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 31 Reply 19, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8789 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 4): There will be plenty of time. First, they get the current models into service. Then, most of the serious problems with the -10 will also be solved. After all, they are actually, at this moment, already producing most of what will also be the -10 model.
Boeing did the same thing with the 773, IIRC.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 15826 posts, RR: 63 Reply 20, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8647 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15): I guess we can forget the perception the 787 can be easily stretched.
It can be, but their are trade-offs. The plane wasn't designed to go bigger because it didn't need to at the time it was being seriously developed.
The original A350 was going to be offered in sizes similar to the 787-8 and 787-9 and there was talk that an A350-1000 the size of the 777-200 might happen. But Airbus was also planning to launch the A340-500E and A340-600E to try and take the fight back to the 777-200LR and 777-300ER.
It is quite clear now, with 400 orders and commitments, that Airbus was very fortunate that the original A350 was rejected in the marketplace because the 787 would have had too much of a head-start in the ≤250 seat market. To Airbus' credit, they shifted up-market and are reaping the benefits of that decision in in the ≥250 seat market.
And yet, both companies are not really hurting in the near-term for their decisions. The A330 is having a banner sales year and the 777 continues to sell by the shed-load now and will do so in the near future.
And best of all, down the road, larger 787's and lighter A350s will help expand each model's sales appeal beyond their current domains.
Dank From United States, joined Jul 2006, 793 posts, RR: 24 Reply 21, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8620 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15): I guess we can forget the perception the 787 can be easily stretched.
I don't doubt that the 787 can be easily stretched. Now whether it can easily be stretched in a form that fits the market and competes well with the 350... They still have plenty of time to figure out what they need to do. i.e. a less capable -10 may be a good compromise in that they know they may lose some orders at the top end, but those might be the orders that they'd have the most trouble grabbing, anyway. Similar to Airbus giving up some of the low end where they may have had the most trouble competing anyway. What is clear is that no matter how great composites are, you still can't make a plane that is all things to all people.
BlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1176 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8548 times:
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 7): Boeing has just lost a major potential 787-10 customer because of its delays.
Assuming you're talking about the EK order for A350, Boeing didn't lose it because of the delays. They lost it because -10 as currently defined isn't the 8,500nm plane - which is what EK was asking for right from the beginning. Boeing should and probably will shoot for bringing the -10 as close to that figure as possible. With its past engineering experience I'd expect the 640,000lbs MTOW plane with the "paper" range around 7,800nm with 330 "standard" passengers, which later could increase to 7,900 - 8,000nm the same way the range of 777-300ER keeps growing as a result of continuous improvements.
Quoting FCKC (Reply 14): Probably the first airline to be courtised by Boeing for the dash 10 would be Qantas, which is rumoured to be on the verge to place an A350 order. The second one should be BAW.Lufthansa should also be in the target.
My educated guesses for 787-10 launch customer list:
- UA
- QF
- BA
- NH,
- some Chinese carrier.
Lufthansa will IMO go for A350-900/-1000 mix.
Quoting DL767captain (Reply 18): I start to wonder if all those predicted sales will come from the US carriers, for DL CO AA and maybe UA it could be a great 772 replacement
I expect AA and DL order -10 "later" for delivery around between 2015 - 2020. That's when their 777-200ERs will start getting old. Same for CO. Since UA has the oldest 777s around (along with CX and NH), I expect them to be the first US-based carrier to go with its direct replacement.
On other note... I'm still hoping for 777-8 and -9... :/
You can bash me all you want, but I consider the 747 and A380 equal... in their ugliness!!! Signed: 777 fanatic.
Lumberton From United States, joined Jul 2005, 4088 posts, RR: 23 Reply 23, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8493 times:
I'm curious as to to what sales campaigns Carson is referring?
Quoting FCKC (Reply 14): Probably the first airline to be courtised by Boeing for the dash 10 would be Qantas
Well, that's definitely one! How about CX? SA)">UA, SA, BA, LH, AF, AA ?
Quoting DL767captain (Reply 18): if EK really wanted this plane they would have waited for it, it will be launched soon,
This never was Boeing's to win. If I had not posited this view since last summer when Dubai took their investment stake in EADS, I'd refrain from making comment, but since I didn't restrain my opinion then, I won't now. IMO, they could have promised Dubai Inc. that the 787-10 would run on sand and EK would have chosen the A350!
[Edited 2007-11-13 14:41:31]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
AirbusA6 From United Kingdom (England), joined Apr 2005, 1129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8231 times:
I'm assuming the cheap stretch option would be the equivalent of producing the 773A out of the 772ER, i.e. extra volume, but at the expense of payload/range. What the airlines seem to be after would be more like the 77W, i.e. a much more capable aircraft, but one much more expensive and resource hungry to develop.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
Sh0rtybr0wn From United States, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8047 times:
I think Boeing should define the 787-10 as near to the 777-300ER as it can. 8500 nm and 300+ seats with bigger landing gear, wings, and mega GEnx engines.
Do it once and do it like they mean it. Don't do a half hearted stretch.
I also see UA and AA and CO and NW taking a few hundred of the 10s, plus all the other -8 and -9 owners order many of them too.
26 DL767captain: what would this be? a scaled up 787 (in all dimensions)? QF was one of the other major airlines pushing for a larger 787, especially with their large
27 9252fly: This is an interesting and developing story. It was suggested earlier this year the reason for Boeing delaying a potential launch,was to see what Airb
28 SirOmega: I thought that Boeing wouldnt finalize a -10 until they got first flight and test data out of the way so they knew what they had to deal with. The pro
29 Stitch: Well the A350-900's sales have shown that there is a market for a next-generation 300-seater, so I think Boeing is better off with a 787-10 that cove
30 Stitch: But that is the trick, isn't it? Airbus had the benefit and the advantage of completely re-doing the plane because they had not already committed to
31 AndesSMF: 787 for the low end (capacity-wise), A350 for the high-end, and the real selling fights in the middle of the pack.
32 AerLingusA330: The 787-10X somewhat resembles the 777-300ER, a nice looking a/c.
33 BoeingFever777: Examples? EK was just looking for reasons not to buy the 787 long ago.
34 Aerokiwi: The approach by both manufacturers has been different. Boeing has opted for an aircraft in the 230-300 seats range as the basis of its mid-size twinje
35 Ikramerica: I assume the numbers Carson is talking about are 2 class, not 3 class. Boeing does not stake it's future on the astronomic growth predictions of ME ca
36 ER757: Am I the only one that read the article and came to a different conclusion that the title of this thread? It sounded to me like Carson was just statin
37 Sh0rtybr0wn: Airlines bought the 777-300 because it was what existed, but how many would have been sold if the 300ER was available at the same time? I just think
38 JoeCanuck: Well, not really. There are over 700 orders for the smaller ones. Presumably, those customers are happy with their orders. What seems to keep getting
39 Stitch: I don't think you are wrong, ER757. Boeing has a bit of a conundrum driven not by the desire to keep the 777 going nor by some obligation to/contract
40 Hloutweg: I don't think that we'll be hearing specifications soon. They are close to 'defining the market' which will then go to define what is the kind of spe
41 KhenleyDIA: Maybe it is just me, but I think some people put far too much weight on EK's orders and comments. Do you really think EK was going to have an airshow
43 JoeCanuck: ...unless Boeing decides it will be. As the clip says, Boeing is yet to decide where they wish to position the -10. Nothing about it is etched in sto
44 BlueSky1976: Making 787-10 the direct A350-1000 competitor does not and will not make economic sense. Boeing would then skip the direct 777-200ER replacement capa
45 Columba: QF and BA are the first that come to my mind, they have said more than once that they want a bigger version and they have already ordered the 787. Se
46 Stitch: It's is hard to argue the sheer size of their Airbus A350/A380 and Boeing 777 commitments... I am quite confident LH will choose the A350. Their flee
47 Parapente: I think even Boeing have stated.Its all about range/weight. At present all the calculations seem to state that the -10 using the existing double bogie
48 Columba: Again two reasons that make me wonder, LH has placed an order for additional A330 for LX and new A320s just recently if they want the A350 why didn´
49 Columba: http://gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10167664.html Okay we know that EK is still interested that leaves 7 other airlines of which we know that 2 are
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Dec 2006, 273 posts, 
.gif){kind=small}
From United Kingdom (England), joined Jul 2003, 8897 posts, 
From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 1601 posts, .gif){kind=small}
From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Apr 2000, 6024 posts, 
From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 8518 posts, 
From France, joined Nov 2004, 2113 posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9765 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Norway, joined May 2006, 401 posts, 
Boeing did the same thing with the 773, IIRC.
From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1176 posts, 
This never was Boeing's to win. If I had not posited this view since last summer when Dubai took their investment stake in EADS, I'd refrain from making comment, but since I didn't restrain my opinion then, I won't now. IMO, they could have promised Dubai Inc. that the 787-10 would run on sand and EK would have chosen the A350! 
Printer friendly format 
