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EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website  
User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6323 times:

Over half of Europe's airlines including Ryanair (RYA.I: Quote, Profile, Research) could be forced to close their Web sites next year if they fail to remedy problems shown by the EU consumer affairs watchdog in a probe carried out in September.
"over 50 percent of all Web sites showed irregularities, in particular relating to price indications, contract terms and clarity of proposed conditions".

Those airlines at fault were found guilty of practices including the following:
- The price of the ticket is first indicated without airport taxes and additional fees
- Offers promising tickets for free or at a low price, but such tickets are unavailable when the consumer wants to buy them
- Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.
- General terms of sales are not provided in the language version used by the consumer during the booking procedure - or not available at all in any language
- No information is given about the rights and procedures of cancellation, transferability and ability to change dates.

Belgium had the worst number of incidents, with 46 of 48 Web sites investigated found to be at fault. Of the 20 Web sites probed in Austria, none was found to break EU consumer rules.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...sNews/idUKL1361181820071113?rpc=44

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8567 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6288 times:

I just hope this is the beginning of the end for all those taxes and fees not in cluded in the advertised fares.
I understand the practice in the US (but don't approve of it), where almost nothing includes the tax in the listed price, but in Europe? That's just misleading advertisement.


User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6259 times:



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Belgium had the worst number of incidents, with 46 of 48 Web sites investigated found to be at fault. Of the 20 Web sites probed in Austria, none was found to break EU consumer rules.

This is a bit odd. Aren't the websites the same, or almost the same? Or do consumer protection laws only apply to offers made in the local language?


User currently offlineZTagged From Niger, joined Oct 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6266 times:

They should do what WN does. Put a really nice sized disclaimer that says "FARES DO NOT INCLUDE AIRPORT FEES AND A 9/11 REGULATION FEE OF UP TO $xxx", or whatever it says. That would save their skin, and it would dodge the consumer watchdog bullet.


Something awful.
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5259 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6242 times:



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

Are consumers blind, stupid, or both???? Before booking you go over the total amount, details, and then you have to press 'confirm' again..... not so difficult is it? Those people shouldn't be allowed to fly at all..

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- No information is given about the rights and procedures of cancellation, transferability and ability to change dates.

Every site makes you tick the general conditions button, with a link next to showing what it is. Those boxes are never 'ticked' but people are just to lazy to read them..


User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6215 times:



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- Offers promising tickets for free or at a low price, but such tickets are unavailable when the consumer wants to buy them

Sounds like they are going at FR here, but FR's site clearly states the blackout dates and that there are limited numbers of seats. People can't complain if they were too slow to act on the sale.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

*cough* Easyjet *cough*


User currently offlineIcarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 805 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6190 times:



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
The price of the ticket is first indicated without airport taxes and additional fees

Wrong with AF : the prices when you book are with taxes so no surprises

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Offers promising tickets for free or at a low price, but such tickets are unavailable when the consumer wants to buy them

Tickets for free on AF, IB, LH, BA, KL....?????

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

Wrong again, at least with AF.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- General terms of sales are not provided in the language version used by the consumer during the booking procedure - or not available at all in any language

Wrong again, at least with AF.And I've tried several sites.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
No information is given about the rights and procedures of cancellation, transferability and ability to change dates.

Wrong again, at least with AF.And I've tried several sites.



Flying is amazing!
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13745 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6171 times:

Ryanair's website being forced to close for a bit? Well, I'm not a fan of Ryanair so....

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Are consumers blind, stupid, or both

Not blind, but stupid and naive such is the average consumer. One cannot blame the European Comission or whatever for protecting the majority.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 5):
Sounds like they are going at FR here, but FR's site clearly states the blackout dates and that there are limited numbers of seats.

I think the problem is more FR continual to advertise when the seats have gone. Or the problem is that the advertising should be more specific, (Free seats to ABC, CBS, CNN but none left for KBBL and NBC - get yours now!") or similar.

[Edited 2007-11-13 11:28:39]


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6171 times:



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

that's the most annoying I believe
Easyjet.fr is a specialist for this trick: the box for 1 piece of bag is ticked by default - +9€ - and so is an insurance if memory serves me right.

also quite annoying is when everything is in your mother tongue except when a pop up opens in English in the middle of the transaction! this is not fair to EU buyers who don't master English

High Speed Train tickets (Thalys competing planes on CDG-AMS) sold on French top website voyages-sncf should be targetted too because they tick by default an insurance for train tickets (+5€)

Quoting Analog (Reply 2):
Aren't the websites the same, or almost the same?

it might sound odd to an American but the sites are quite different in most cases



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6027 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):

Are consumers blind, stupid, or both???? Before booking you go over the total amount, details, and then you have to press 'confirm' again..... not so difficult is it? Those people shouldn't be allowed to fly at all..

When buying X they don't expect to have Y added to their bill without requesting it. It's like when a supermarket price tag has small print under the price label for a piece of ham that they'll add insurance to your total at the checkout and people don't have the cashier take it off.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

Airline websites should show the TOTAL incl credit card fee on the very first page of the screen showing the flights and price. Aer Lingus seem to have 99% of theirs compliant as do BMI. Also airlines should not be allowed to advertise fares for EUR20 when the real price incl tax and fuel charges is EUR80. Its misleading to advertise such low fares .

When I book a ticket I want to know what is going to come off my credit card as soon as I put my dates in !!! With amedments to certain airlines websites if can be done easily so there is NO excuse.


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5259 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5764 times:

Ah well, whatever. I just booked my 20 euro return incl taxes ticket again. This time EIN-CIA .. No hidden fee's on that one..  Smile

User currently offlineGBan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5597 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Every site makes you tick the general conditions button, with a link next to showing what it is. Those boxes are never 'ticked' but people are just to lazy to read them..

Did you check every site?

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Are consumers blind, stupid, or both???? Before booking you go over the total amount, details, and then you have to press 'confirm' again..... not so difficult is it? Those people shouldn't be allowed to fly at all..

Disagree: Airlines not able or willing to follow some very simple rules (show full ticket price from the beginning etc.) should not be allowed to sell tickets at all..  Wink


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11819 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5566 times:

Some of this is, I suppose, good for consumers. But I just find it scary that the government is so tightly regulating the free (or not-so-free, apparently) conduct of business. We're rapidly moving towards an unelected European federal super-state, and I'm just concerned about what they are going to try to regulate next.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
The price of the ticket is first indicated without airport taxes and additional fees

This is the only point on here that I think has some merit. Developing an industry standard where either everyone only advertises fares with taxes, or only advertises fares without, is in concept a good idea. But I don't like that it's government-regulated. And, regardless of whether its voluntary or regulated, I think people are ultimately smart enough to figure things out on their own.

After all, if you go onto Ryanair.com and see an ad for £1 return, but then when you go to book, the total actually ends up being £70 with all the taxes and fees added in, you can end the booking process right there and go over to, say, EasyJet (just an example, not sure how they advertise fares) who is offering £65 return taxes included. It's not as if once you log onto the Ryanair website and your eyes catch sight of that £1 fare, a hand reaches out of the computer and holds a gun to your head to force you to buy the ticket. You know what you're buying before you give your credit card, or at least you should.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Offers promising tickets for free or at a low price, but such tickets are unavailable when the consumer wants to buy them

So what, now? Are we moving towards communism? Does everyone have to pay the same price for something, or are airlines now going to be responsible for changing ads - everywhere - each time a fare bucket fills up? This is just ridiculous - this is one of the fundamentals of modern business: if you had to change your advertising every time the price changed with supply and demand, you'd be changing ads every 10 seconds.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

Well, this one I find a bit confusing. If it's a "tick box" for insurance or additional services, that tends to imply - at least to me - that it can be un-ticked.

Again, what happened to personal responsibility? If you are stupid enough to buy something without ensuring that you know exactly what you're buying (insurance, additional services and all) that's your problem. Besides, even if airlines might try and "fool" you by automatically checking boxes to opt you into email lists, to buy insurance, etc., I don't know of any airline in the western world that doesn't have that "confirmation" page at the end before you book the ticket that lists all the charges that will go on your credit card. Perhaps I'm wrong, but every ticket I've ever bought on the website of any European airline has always given you that final "confirmation" page that itemizes the base far, taxes, additional charges, etc.

You're only "trapped" as a consumer if you allow yourself to be. Again, especially on the internet, it's not as if anyone is standing there holding a gun to your head: if you put your credit card number into the website, and press "go," and you aren't absolutely 100% sure of what you're buying, that's your problem, not the airline's, and certainly not the EU's.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5550 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
I understand the practice in the US (but don't approve of it), where almost nothing includes the tax in the listed price, but in Europe?

This is a myth. At most airline websites in the USA, the fare quoted contains most of the fees, other than segment/airport specific taxes that are included once you actually choose your flights.

At places like travelocity, the full price is quoted right off the bat as they price things based on your route before hand.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5407 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
Again, what happened to personal responsibility? If you are stupid enough to buy something without ensuring that you know exactly what you're buying (insurance, additional services and all) that's your problem.

might be cultural differences but I absolutely disagree
when you order a car does the dealer ticks automatically all the extra paying options for your F-150 or Honda accord waiting for you to untick them?
or is the CSA at Starbucks adding an extra 50 cent cream and 50 cent caramel by default to your beveradge waiting for you to react??
why should this apply to airfares then??



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11819 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5382 times:



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 15):
why should this apply to airfares then??

Because that's life. Businesses try and get whatever they can get out of people, and as such, some have now resorted to automatically putting passengers down for travel options they don't want/need.

It happens everywhere. I just recently tried to book a ticket on a low-fare airline here in Asia, and, just like with the examples cited in the article, the website automatically defaulted to charging me for insurance I didn't want.

But you know what? Rather than complaining or depending on the government to "protect" me, I just un-ticked the box and, once again, made sure - checked, double-checked and then rechecked again - that I knew exactly what I was getting before I inputted my credit card.

Personal responsibility. It's a good thing.


User currently offlineUTA_flyinghigh From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 6495 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5279 times:

[

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 6):
Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
The price of the ticket is first indicated without airport taxes and additional fees

Wrong with AF : the prices when you book are with taxes so no surprises



Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 6):
Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- General terms of sales are not provided in the language version used by the consumer during the booking procedure - or not available at all in any language

Wrong again, at least with AF.And I've tried several sites.

[quote=Icarus75,reply=6]Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
No information is given about the rights and procedures of cancellation, transferability and ability to change dates.

Wrong again, at least with AF.And I've tried several sites.

I quite like how you defend our national carrier /sarcasm.

Here are some screenshots from www.airfrance.ie (Eire is the EU, right?) :
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g220/UTA_flyinghigh/lying_pouh.jpg

Note how they advertise the "low" fare.

Also no information on the general terms of sales is provided; and info on the fare rules is not readily available, you have to search for it long and hard.

UTA  checkeredflag 



Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
User currently offlineRebelDJ From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5208 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
This is a myth.

I think what Airbazar was refering to was the practice of adding sales tax at the cashdesk for every regular purchase in stores in the US. I see this as no different to what the LCCs do with their websites.

However, regarding the rest of this topic, I also do not see how the including of taxes and charges can be done at the very start of a transaction (without making the whole process very unwieldy) - because what you pay will depend on what you buy. For instance, if you choose to buy the airlines insurance, there will be a tax on the insurance premium (at least in the UK). Also, fees and charges from airports may vary depending on travel dates. I recently booked several return flights on TUIFly at €25 return including taxes and charges on a route that regularly shows airport charges as being between €50 and €70. Obviously the airline struck a deal with the airport for my particular travel dates - but that would be such a difficule thing to put on page one of a website. People must accept some sort of personnal responsibility for what they choose to spend their money on - beware of too much government regulation.

Also, there are so many other fields where price comparison is left up to the individual - try comparing car insurance, computers especially any sort of service contract - what is included and excluded is often hidden away in the small print - well away from any check boxes! Yet people manage to choose which goods and services they want to buy every day without the government making these industries price their products in the same way.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5187 times:



Quoting RebelDJ (Reply 18):
Also, fees and charges from airports may vary depending on travel dates. I recently booked several return flights on TUIFly at €25 return including taxes and charges on a route that regularly shows airport charges as being between €50 and €70.

It is likely that the "airport charge" in question was actually an airline fuel surcharge, which appears as part of taxes and fees but is actually a cunning mechanism to charge more for the ticket. This is why this EU regulation is a good thing, airlines can no longer hide behing YQ surcharges to inflate their fares.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5181 times:



Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 17):
(Eire is the EU, right?) :

No but the ''Republic of Ireland'' Is  Wink


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5122 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
I just hope this is the beginning of the end for all those taxes and fees not in cluded in the advertised fares.
I understand the practice in the US (but don't approve of it), where almost nothing includes the tax in the listed price, but in Europe? That's just misleading advertisement.

I find it misleading when I walk into a shop in North America, when I try and buy something. I pay more than the listed price, they add tax ontop of the listed price. And because they don't pay their staff properly or at all, I then have to tip the people to prop up their wages.

I see a double standard here, a practice which stems from North America, is being called misleading advertising by a North American.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11819 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5110 times:



Quoting Zeke (Reply 21):
I see a double standard here, a practice which stems from North America, is being called misleading advertising

Woh, woh, let's slow down there.

This is hardly a "North American" phenomena at all. It's nothing of the sort. This "misleading advertising" is done all over the world, in virtually every place I've ever been - it's hardly an export from the U.S. or North America. In fact, I'd say it's far, far more worse (more misleading) in Europe, as it's a rarity in the U.S. to find $1 round-trip fares advertised, only to later find that there are actually $70 in taxes. That happens all the time in Europe, on the other hand. Just ask Ryanair.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5089 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
In fact, I'd say it's far, far more worse (more misleading) in Europe, as it's a rarity in the U.S. to find $1 round-trip fares advertised, only to later find that there are actually $70 in taxes.

Every time I walk into any shop in north america (except in ANC), I always seem to pay tax ontop of goods purchased, Canada and the lower 48 seem to be the same.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineBDKLEZ From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5063 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
No but the ''Republic of Ireland'' Is

Oh, I have these sorts of conversations, especially with a fellow countryman. But if we want to get to the nitty gritty, then although Éire is widely, and incorrectly used in reference to the Republic of Ireland, the term in fact refers to the island of Ireland as a whole and as such it can be argued that Éire (in geographical terms, not political) is within the EU, although separated by a land border between two member states of the EU.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Are consumers blind, stupid, or both???? Before booking you go over the total amount, details, and then you have to press 'confirm' again..... not so difficult is it?

I agree. Furthermore, I am very much of the opinion of supporting the carriers in this respect. Why should they in fact be required to advertise all-inclusive fares, when in certain cases the majority of the fees are not charged by the airline but are required to be collected by the carrier on behalf of national/regional governments, airport authorities etc.

Diligence when making a reservation on-line, is all that is required to ensure a full understanding of how much and why you are paying for the various elements which make up what will eventually appear on your credit card statement.



Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
25 Davescj : I agree. The best I've found for complete disclosure is ORBITZ. They give BOTH the price AND (under the base fare) the total cost with fees/taxes inc
26 BCAL : Why the EU regulators are singling out airlines, and not other service industries, is a case of double standards. Like it has been mentioned in an ear
27 Theginge : How are the EU going to force sites to close down? I think I can guess what Ryan Airs response to that would be. Begins and ends with F!!!
28 DistantHorizon : If it's illegal (and IT IS, at least in the EU), than a court order (or a simple administrative one) should end these "smart" practices. DH
29 Post contains images Varig md-11 : jeez, I never thought about this obvious answer yeah....you might call it "Personal responsibility" of the buyers I call it crookery attempt from the
30 SSTsomeday : In Canada as well... Zoom, on their Canadian website, can advertise fares from Canada to the UK which are about a third! of what the consumer actuall
31 Post contains images BHXFAOTIPYYC : The extent to which the EU sticks it's nose in absolutely everything never ceases to amaze me. We must be the most over legislated people on the plane
32 Varig md-11 : if the EU is sticking its nose in this, it is certainly because they received tons of complaints from people not as smart as you could be with your "
33 Analog : That's not so bad, since it's done for every taxable item and even the dumbest consumers know about it. OTOH it would be better to require advertisin
34 Post contains images Icarus75 : I gave AF example because I know it very well : I fly with AF every week ends. I find the site clear and before giving the examples, I've checked! If
35 Runway24R : From a customer's perspective, I don't really care one bit how much of my ticket cost is tax, security charges, fuel surcharges, etc. All I care about
36 BlueFlyer : I think the reason there is such an outcry against "hidden" fees and last-minute surchages for airline tickets is that, generally speaking, retail pri
37 VV701 : Consumers expect reputable companies like FR, BA and LH to operate on a level playing field. If they look at the first price on a web site for an air
38 SSTsomeday : But why should we be at the mercy of false advertising, which wastes our time and SEEKS to deceit consumers? Why should there not be accountability i
39 Viscount724 : In my experience, your statement is incorrect that the practice is more widespread in Europe. I find the opposite. Airlines in many if not most count
40 JGPH1A : Rubbish. It's the standard Navitaire product, isn't it ? It's a tweak to the pricing parameters, that's all. These are not complex pricing transactio
41 Ikramerica : That's just silliness. There is not one person in this country who is not fully aware that sales tax is not included in most prices. Not only that, i
42 Post contains images UTA_flyinghigh : Bonjour Just read yesterday's post and I may have sounded a bit agressive. Apologies from my part too. It's just that being a FB PE (and F+ rouge bef
43 BuyantUkhaa : That is quite an assumption! That's why regulators exist - that's life too. Absolutely, but this responsibility extends to airlines too - and that's
44 Post contains images OHLHD : The reason for that it a ruling by the Austrian highest court that it is by Austrian law forbidden to advertise any price without all taxes included.
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