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US Military Opening Airspace For Holidays  
User currently offlineGregarious119 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 532 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071115/...;_ylt=Aox5DpGny0o8HW2Ue2RDP_4E1vAI

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071115/...;_ylt=ArG7FHRlCzBkD8BZek2mWSMGw_IE

Looks like the 5 days around Thanksgiving and around Christmas they'll use this to ease congestion.

Seems like a good idea!  airplane 

[Edited 2007-11-15 11:27:16]

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

Perhaps this is a dumb question, but if it's this easy to open the airspace for the holidays, why not do it more?


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5515 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

Will this help? Is it really airspace that is the problem anyway? Isn't it the airports that are just overwhelmed by the sudden increase (doubling?) of passenger traffic?

Tug



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3616 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Perhaps this is a dumb question, but if it's this easy to open the airspace for the holidays, why not do it more?

This may be an uneducated guess, but during the rest of the year, that airspace is often being used what it's reserved for- military training. However, in the days surrounding Thanksgiving and Christmas, it's likey the military is doing less flying as Thanksgiving and Christmas are official holidays for the government (doesn't mean Zero flying, but certainly less) and I'm sure many in the military already have plans to take leave an do whatever.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3550 times:



Quoting Tugger (Reply 2):
Will this help? Is it really airspace that is the problem anyway? Isn't it the airports that are just overwhelmed by the sudden increase (doubling?) of passenger traffic?

The ability to use the newly freed-up airspace will help, but that won't do anything to resolve capacity issues at either the departure or arrival airport. It's tantamount to building a new 6-lane bridge over the river, but keeping the lanes the lead to and from the bridge a 2-lanes

Depending upon exactly where these new "lanes" are within ZDC, you could also still have sector volume issues..


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3544 times:



Quoting Gregarious119 (Thread starter):
Looks like the 5 days around Thanksgiving and around Christmas they'll use this to ease congestion.

Seems like a good idea! airplane

Since its only between the Northeast and Florida, I doubt if will do much, just a PR stunt, as others as stated you still have capacity issues at the airports.


User currently offlineGMUAirbusA320 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 243 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

I'm sure proud our government is working on something like this. It seems that air travel is more important to Pres. Bush than finding a solution to our weakening dollar or foreign policy....or even an alternative and more updated ATC system. I'm glad the President is standing up against long delays during Thanksgiving...I'll be able to sleep better tonight.  Wink

User currently offlineSpoke2Spoke From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

We're not going to get LGA, JFK, EWR, BOS, and PHL additional runways and taxiways between now and Thanksgiving. But opening airspace may have a positive effect and ease some holiday congestion. Kudos to the government for attempting the solution. This is the kind of thinking we need to promote.

C'mon skeptics, let's wait and see if this has a positive impact. What's the hurt?



...carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks. - Wilbur Wright
User currently offlineBooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

I agree with Spoke. Let's wait until AFTER it makes no effect on delays before we bash it.  spin 


B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

This is nothing more than "eye wash"! In reality, the military doesn't use that airspace during that time period and it would be handed back to the respective Centers for them to route traffic through the airspace as they saw fit.

User currently offlineBigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3092 times:

How many days before an NJ ANG F16 shoots an airliner down in military airspace. I mean they shot up a school last year and then dropped a flare into the Pinelands that started the wildfire in summer, so anything is possible!

User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3037 times:

How many airlines can use this airspace anyway?

As I understand, aircraft not equipped with liferafts and vests can fly the overwater route from MIA-NYC.

I remember reading on this forum that Southwest was considering equipping some of its aircraft with rafts/vests to allow it to fly shorter routes and save fuel. Southwest is big in the Florida-Northeast market.

How may of the USA and JBU aircraft have overwater capability? If they do not have this, the new routes are not much use anyway.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2981 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 11):
How many airlines can use this airspace anyway?

As I understand, aircraft not equipped with liferafts and vests can fly the overwater route from MIA-NYC.

Maybe more than you think. Seat cushions along will get you as far as 50nm from the nearest shoreline; lifeVESTs will get you 50nm-162nm offshore, and life RAFTs will get you beyond 162nm.

Some of the ARs between MIA-NYC can easily (and legally) be flown with just life VESTs. NYC-Carribean destinations are another story...


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13011 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2960 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Perhaps this is a dumb question, but if it's this easy to open the airspace for the holidays, why not do it more?

Its a good question. You can't do certain operations with civilian aircraft anywhere close buy. (e.g., zoom climb in an F-16 or any other fighter, a standard drill to set up an 'emergency CAP'). In effect, some of the bases will be grounded. Oh wait, the F-15's are anyway.  Wink

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
This is nothing more than "eye wash"! In reality, the military doesn't use that airspace during that time period and it would be handed back to the respective Centers for them to route traffic through the airspace as they saw fit.

Actually, the military uses that time to do a lot of optional training. To keep a volunteer core of pilots around during the holidays, they lift quite a few of the normal restrictions (e.g., limits on afterburner use).  Smile Some bases see their heaviest flying during the holidays. Some... almost none. (exactly what restrictions can you lift on a B-52?).  Wink Every fighter pilot I know is excited about the 'holiday training.'

But a good thing. As others noted, until the airports are expanded, its just window dressing. The real restrictions are the airports. e.g., put a 3rd parallel runway out in the bay near JFK would do more on its own than this release of airspace.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2939 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 13):
Its a good question. You can't do certain operations with civilian aircraft anywhere close buy. (e.g., zoom climb in an F-16 or any other fighter, a standard drill to set up an 'emergency CAP'). In effect, some of the bases will be grounded.

Lightsaber, you seem to know something about this stuff, so perhaps you can poke some holes in this idea...

It sounds like training is planned relatively far in advance. After all, they know already that there won't be any training in the "express lane" over Thanksgiving, so they know more than a week in advance. Why have this airspace be open by default and only close it when it's needed? Default is maybe the wrong word, as it could be that it's only open 20 or 30 or 40 percent of the time, but if there's so much planning, why not open it more?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSJBOEING From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2914 times:



Quoting GMUAirbusA320 (Reply 6):
I'm sure proud our government is working on something like this. It seems that air travel is more important to Pres. Bush than finding a solution to our weakening dollar or foreign policy....or even an alternative and more updated ATC system. I'm glad the President is standing up against long delays during Thanksgiving...I'll be able to sleep better tonight.

People like you really irritate me. What do you want done? I'm not going to turn this into a forum about foreign exchange and foreign policy debate, but it seems like you're the type that is never happy with anything. This move, while not a solution, will help somewhat over this incredibly busy holiday period. It's not being marketed as a solution or some breakthrough idea. How much time do you think was spent on this? Don't confuse what you may deem to be problems with your own personal disagreements with the President and his policies.


User currently offlineMicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 778 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2898 times:



Quoting SJBOEING (Reply 15):
People like you really irritate me. What do you want done? I'm not going to turn this into a forum about foreign exchange and foreign policy debate, but it seems like you're the type that is never happy with anything. This move, while not a solution, will help somewhat over this incredibly busy holiday period. It's not being marketed as a solution or some breakthrough idea. How much time do you think was spent on this? Don't confuse what you may deem to be problems with your own personal disagreements with the President and his policies.

I think Bush's approval ratings speak well enough to answer the underlying question. But, you bring up a good point. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Worst case scenario is that it helps a little.



S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2130 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Reading the articles provided, I see some more proposed changes that will likely have more beneficial effects than opening more direct routing over peak holiday travel dates.
The monetary proposals (increasing the overbooking compensation and higher landing fees) may help, but the idea of fining the 'chronically late' scheduled flights may prove to be the incentive the airlines need to buck the consumer demand and offer slightly less frequencies with larger aircarft into key airports.
This is not a new sugggestion, and in fact has been discussed here before, but perhaps the airplnes and their premium customers can recognise that choice between 12 on-time daily flights bewteen X & Y vs 18 delayed daily flights is an easy pill to swallow.
Let's wait and see, for the sake of you Americans who see far more of the inside of an airliner than you would like.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineSJBOEING From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2820 times:



Quoting Micstatic (Reply 16):
I think Bush's approval ratings speak well enough to answer the underlying question. But, you bring up a good point. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Worst case scenario is that it helps a little.

That's all I'm getting at. Before we complain, let's see how this plays out.

Yes, the 'approval' ratings speak for themselves. In no way am I defending GWB. I get annoyed at the immediate complaining.


User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2805 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 12):
Maybe more than you think. Seat cushions along will get you as far as 50nm from the nearest shoreline; lifeVESTs will get you 50nm-162nm offshore, and life RAFTs will get you beyond 162nm.

Some of the ARs between MIA-NYC can easily (and legally) be flown with just life VESTs. NYC-Carribean destinations are another story...

I just wondered because I used to work for Continental and we had to have dedicated overwater aircraft on the route from IAH-CUN. If one of these aircraft had a maintenance, the flight could be delayed for hours.


User currently offlineSJBOEING From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2798 times:

GMUAirbusA320, I meant no disrespect. I may have come off hot-headed. That was not personal attack on you, but more of a generalization.

User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2781 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Perhaps this is a dumb question, but if it's this easy to open the airspace for the holidays, why not do it more?

This airspace give back is political self gloss. The airspace would be cold anyhow for the holidays.  banghead 

Quoting Tugger (Reply 2):
Is it really airspace that is the problem anyway? Isn't it the airports that are just overwhelmed by

You have the flick!  checkmark 

Quoting AirCop (Reply 5):
just a PR stunt

Absolutely!  checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 7):
Kudos to the government for attempting the solution. This is the kind of thinking we need to promote.

No.  no  No Kudos for anyone. This airspace is released anytime it's not in use anyhow. It's SOP. I'm speaking from experience, I didn't sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
This is nothing more than "eye wash"! In reality, the military doesn't use that airspace during that time period and it would be handed back to the respective Centers for them to route traffic through the airspace as they saw fit.

DING!  checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 10):
How many days before an NJ ANG F16 shoots an airliner down in military airspace.

Is this a serious inquiry/question? Seriously, I want to know.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2753 times:

well airspace is ok, parallel runways (and more pavement in general) are needed. Just my first thought.


The Ohio Player
User currently offlineEchster From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Bush Puts Lipstick On Blakey's Pig

Our hero the Decider Guy ambled up to the microphones yesterday and saved the day for stressed out, burned out, tired, underpaid, heading for retirement---travelers with his big Thanksgiving Eve turkey of an air traffic control announcement.

The Disaster-In-Chief showed just how little he knew about air traffic control when he declared that "flights are being delayed, sometimes with a full load of passengers sitting on the runway for hours." Not so fast there, Smirky. Those airplanes may sit at the gates or on the ramps or the taxiways for hours, but if you put them on the runways for more than a few seconds you are going to turn a flight-full of holiday revelers into a thin pink mist. Runways are for departures and arrivals there, Curious George, not for parking.



http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2007/11/the-decider-guy.html


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13011 posts, RR: 100
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2634 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
Why have this airspace be open by default and only close it when it's needed?

Then you have no training flexibility. What happens if the plan is a bombing training mission and plane #3 has a FOD incident? You couldn't just delay a day. Or... every military base has two periodic inspections. One planned... one not so planned. These inspections often require scrambles. Not something I ever want to happen with civil aircraft around.

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 22):
well airspace is ok, parallel runways (and more pavement in general) are needed.

My thoughts too! Build more runways!  bigthumbsup 

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
25 Luv2cattlecall : This should do wonders to all the lines of planes/RJs waiting to takeoff from JFK!
26 AAR90 : It happens REGULARLY. You're only reading about it now because it makes "good press." ANYTIME the US military knows it will not be using its reserved
27 ADXMatt : You needed an a/c with rafts.... currently at CO all the 737NG have rafts and only some of the B737-300's,
28 Cubsrule : Gotcha... that makes more sense.
29 PhilSquares : Lightsaber, after spending 10 years active and another 11 years in the guard, I dion't know who's giving your you facts but they're wrong. There is a
30 KevinSmith : It's no so much that they are opening it up for use so much as they aren't going to be there to use it.
31 Mirrodie : I'm not an ATC guru by any means, but I have to ask what does "east coast express' lane in the sky really do for us? In my way of thought, it seems th
32 AAR90 : Not much for as you note: Correct on the first count, only slightly on the second. Additional or more direct ENROUTE options will do little at conges
33 COSPN : ADXMatt, Don't all CO NG 737's have Rafts and HF Radios for International and Overwater flying ???? so for example can fly IAH-MIA overwater ???
34 OA260 : According to CBS this holiday season is going to be the worst in history !!! Hope it doesnt turn out like last year with people stuck on runways for h
35 OPNLguy : Couldn't that be viewed (within a "Sweeps" month, as November is) as just a little bit of self-serving hyperbole? "Worst" in exactly what way? That t
36 KevinSmith : Kind of what I was thinking. "The worst holiday music played over Thanskgiving"
37 Post contains links and images OPNLguy : This just in! The Holiday "Express Lanes" have been published, and are now in use! The Holiday travel season is SAVED! Thanks Georgie! http://www.skyl
38 AAR90 : True, but you know the press is going to be jumping all over virtually ANY delay. And it will ALWAYS be the airline's fault.
39 Mir : I don't know about USAir, but JetBlue's planes (at least the Airbi, not sure about the Embraers) are all equipped for extended overwater. -Mir
40 OPNLguy : That's probably the thing that's irritated me the most in the last year--that the backlash from the AUS/JFK events has back-driven a erroneous conclu
41 Post contains links and images OPNLguy : Let's take a look at Warning Area W-177A, one of the "freed-up" pieces of military airspace. W-177A being there isn't usually a problem, since you ha
42 Post contains images Mirrodie : Thanks for the visual. You know, in local NY area news, when they made the announcement, new crews went around the airport asking passengers for feed
43 Post contains links Sphealey : Some additional politically-oriented discussion of this plan can be found at Ezra Klein's site and also Matthew Yglesias of The Atlantic. James Fallow
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