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Varig: MAD Is Back!  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6225 times:
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Considering information now available on their website as well as Amadeus, VARIG will be back to MAD effective December 17th with 2 daily flights from São Paulo with Boeing 767-300ER:

First, an overnight GRU-MAD and daylight MAD-GRU

Eff. December 17
8714 GRU 0010 MAD 1330
8715 MAD 1455 GRU 2235

And a second plane will be added to the route producing an overnight MAD-GRU and the first daylight GRU-MAD.

Eff. December 21
8710 GRU 1050 MAD 2359
8711 MAD 0115 GRU 0855

With this, in a short period of weeks, GRU-MAD come from a 14x weekly route (IB 12x plus CA 2x) to an amazing 38x weekly route (IB 14x CA 3x JJ 7x RG 14x) or almost 3 times higher.

Considering additional services to FRA (TAM and also now LH flies GRU-FRA and EZE-FRA), LIS (TP GIG-LIS +5x weekly, TP GRU-LIS +2x weekly and TP BSB-LIS 5x weekly new service), CDG (AF GIG-CDG +7x plus new service RG GIG-GRU-CDG-FCO daily), LHR (seasonal BA +3x weekly), as well as upgrades like LH (MUC to A346 from A343), KL (77W from 772), LX (+1 weekly flight), seems that fares will really become lower after January.


Felipe


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6130 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
seems that fares will really become lower after January.

Felipe, I already observe this. When I quote AMS-GRU or BRU-GRU for March I get fares for 600€ all-in. Never saw that before.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32686 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6112 times:

Good to see them in Madrid, but 2x daily is overkill. Better use of planes, I guess. Supposedly, when they resume MIA and JFK in March, they will both be 2x daily as well.


a.
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6022 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Considering information now available on their website as well as Amadeus, VARIG will be back to MAD effective December 17th with 2 daily flights from São Paulo with Boeing 767-300ER:

Something tells me these won't last much longer. I can see RG trying to make 1 daily flight work, but 2 is totally over capacity for them. I wonder how low would they sell it??

Why don't they go for non-stop GIG-MAD instead??? I guess they have to secure their frequencies, after all, profitability is not a GOL/RG priority.


User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5984 times:



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 3):
Why don't they go for non-stop GIG-MAD instead???

If IB doesnt even fly a daily GIG-MAD how come RG could sostain that service?


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3694 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5935 times:



Quoting PU752 (Reply 4):
If IB doesnt even fly a daily GIG-MAD how come RG could sostain that service?

IB not flying GIG-MAD daily led UX to fly to GIG as well...

The thing is that IB is playing around, since TP flies 15x weekly to GIG and AF 14x.

[Edited 2007-11-19 18:11:45]

User currently onlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5924 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5890 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Eff. December 17
8714 GRU 0010 MAD 1330
8715 MAD 1455 GRU 2235

And a second plane will be added to the route producing an overnight MAD-GRU and the first daylight GRU-MAD.

Eff. December 21
8710 GRU 1050 MAD 2359
8711 MAD 0115 GRU 0855

will they have any interline agreements ex MAD to onforward passengers... ?? well the 8710 is very limited for conecting passengers...



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5813 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Good to see them in Madrid, but 2x daily is overkill. Better use of planes, I guess. Supposedly, when they resume MIA and JFK in March, they will both be 2x daily as well.

Right, MIA should return on March and EWR (not JFK) on April. Seems that they should face some problems with JFK (connected with old-RG or even excessive congestion).

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 3):
Why don't they go for non-stop GIG-MAD instead??? I guess they have to secure their frequencies, after all, profitability is not a GOL/RG priority.

Good question, but i don't have a reply. Seems that they like to waste money.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3694 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5787 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
Right, MIA should return on March and EWR (not JFK) on April. Seems that they should face some problems with JFK (connected with old-RG or even excessive congestion).

I don't think there are any problems with JFK, since either JFK and EWR are run by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32686 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5757 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):

Right, MIA should return on March and EWR (not JFK) on April. Seems that they should face some problems with JFK (connected with old-RG or even excessive congestion).

Do you know if VARIG will be smart and serve MIA from GRU and GIG (GRU redeye/GIG daylight), or will both flights be from GRU?



a.
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4003 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5718 times:
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Will RG reinstate LAX service or is it still undecided who will pick up this route they used to fly?

LACA773


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32686 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5667 times:



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 10):
Will RG reinstate LAX service or is it still undecided who will pick up this route they used to fly?

VARIG has no plans to resume to LAX. If a Brazilian airline flies to LAX, TAM is more likely.



a.
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4003 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5628 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
VARIG has no plans to resume to LAX. If a Brazilian airline flies to LAX, TAM is more likely.

That's what I was thinking as well. Any thoughts as to when JJ might start service to LAX? What a/c would they use?

LACA773


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5571 times:



Quoting PU752 (Reply 4):
If IB doesnt even fly a daily GIG-MAD how come RG could sostain that service?

It will be as of Jan 08.

Also there were rumors of Air Europa increasing their flights to GIG.

I think it would be much better if they offered GIG-MAD. Or else, they could use the aircraft for non-stop GRU-FCO.


User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5453 times:

Isn't TAM also starting GIG/GRU-MAD (DEC 07)?

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5405 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Do you know if VARIG will be smart and serve MIA from GRU and GIG (GRU redeye/GIG daylight), or will both flights be from GRU?

Both from GRU by the first moment. RG GIG-MIA service is expected for July or August/08 with 1 or 2 flights, but not decided yet. TAM is also focusing to begin GIG-MIA by October 2008 and GIG-JFK between the end of 2008/begin 2009.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
VARIG has no plans to resume to LAX. If a Brazilian airline flies to LAX, TAM is more likely.

Correct ! RG destinations in US will be limited to EWR and MIA. The one with plans for LAX is JJ.

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 14):
Isn't TAM also starting GIG/GRU-MAD (DEC 07)?

Yes, will begin by December 07 (also) with a daily service.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineSAOAP From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 170 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5405 times:



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 13):

As far as I know the reason VRG has decided to start GRU-MAD double daily is simply so that they wouldn't loose the slots. Italy will be served non-stop in the future though it'll have to wait until more planes become available - for now, the slots have been secured and I suppose that there could be some local traffic between Paris and Rome which VRG could use for their advantage.

Right now Varig needs to re-establish itself in São Paulo before moving on. Once that's done, I'm positive they will turn their attention to Rio again. While the yield might not be that interesting as the yields in São Paulo (though I suspect we'll be seeing a major drop due to the extremely agressive capacity increase), the volume is certainly there and in a time where volume could make the difference at the end of the day, it could be just what they need.

Cheers,

Marcelo



"When it's dark enough, you can see the stars" - Charles A. Beard
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4006 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5311 times:



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 3):
Something tells me these won't last much longer. I can see RG trying to make 1 daily flight work, but 2 is totally over capacity for them. I wonder how low would they sell it??

Why don't they go for non-stop GIG-MAD instead??? I guess they have to secure their frequencies, after all, profitability is not a GOL/RG priority.

The new Varig is going against another Brazilian competitor - TAM - which has several handicaps. It has expanded slowly into international markets to fill the void of the old Varig. TAM is hardly established in service to Europe and has a culture of risk aversion. Service to Paris was started in June 1999. In 2001 it tried GRU-FRA-ZRH but that service lasted for only a few months. When it decided to expand again, it added more Paris service. It was not until October 2006 that TAM added a second destination in Europe, London. The market is up for grabs and Varig/Gol wants to be the largest airline in the market.

Step #1 is to secure frequencies in the environment of restrictive bilaterals. This is difficult with a fleet that cannot be expanded quickly enough. Varig then ends up bizarre schedules because it has to keep airplanes in the air pretty much all the time. After Varig is done with securing frequencies where it risks losing them to competitors, it will move on to step #2, which is to offer an attractive schedule to business travelers, especially in nonstop markets like GRU-MAD. Then Varig will focus on building connections between domestic and international services.

As for GIG-MAD, Iberia already has service there and GRU-MAD is a very large market.

Then TAM has an issue of costs and fleet flexibility. A330s, a couple of A340s, three MD11s, 777-300s for delivery next year and A350s down the road. The cost of keeping spare parts and trained personel for all those fleet types is going to be very high. Varig on the other hand is setting up a poor man's fleet of widebodies with 767s. As long as the interiors are new and standard, passengers will not care. Actually the 767 is great in coach because only 1 out of 7 seats is a middle seat. Varig will likely have a considerable cost advantage over TAM.


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2158 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5242 times:

Has RG started using the B767-200ER yet? If not, when?

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32686 posts, RR: 72
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5189 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
Both from GRU by the first moment. RG GIG-MIA service is expected for July or August/08 with 1 or 2 flights,

So are you saying that Varig might be offering as many as four daily flights to MIA? Wow.



a.
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3694 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5186 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):

All what you said makes perfect sense, but the problem is the fleet. VARIG's fleet will grow very slowly and there is no way that will be able to expand domestic services like you are saying. They will either have to rely on GOL for the connections at GRU or they will have to decrease service at CGH. The other problem is the small widebody fleet. They will not be able to run so many frequencies with good schedules, if they are planning so many routes. RG is expected to have only 14 767 and only 22 737 frames in 2008.

What can be flown with the 767?

2x MAD - 2 frames
1x CDG - 2 frames
2x FRA - 4 frames
1x LHR - 2 frames
1x FCO - 2 frames
1x EWR - 1 frame
1x MIA - 1 frame

I guess that they can use the returning planes from FCO and CDG to run flights to MIA and leave the dedicated frame to have EWR twice daily. The thing is that the aircraft utilization will be high and there will be no spare.


User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5065 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
2x MAD - 2 frames
1x CDG - 2 frames
2x FRA - 4 frames
1x LHR - 2 frames
1x FCO - 2 frames
1x EWR - 1 frame
1x MIA - 1 frame


+ MEX 1 Frame, though 762



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4006 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4855 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
What can be flown with the 767?

Your schedule will return about 14:30h daily utilization, which is not out of the ordinary.
If Varig flies all overnight sectors where it can, this schedule would likely generate a maintenance problem because no aircraft would be on the ground long enough to go through a long check. But, all it takes is to schedule a daylight out of FRA and the problem is solved. It is unlikely Varig can run two flights to FRA profitably, but hogging that market is a good way to pester TAM.

Varig may be able to use new 737s to add service to the US as well, in markets like BSB-MIA and MAO-EWR.


User currently offlineFCFONTESTORRES From Portugal, joined Apr 2006, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Finally!!! Next time...BRAZIL by VARIG, VARIG, VARIG!! Thanks GOD!!! I'm sick of flying only TAP and IBERIA!! It will be cheaper take an EasyJet to Barajas and than take a VARIG plane to Brazil rather than go by TAP or IBERIA!! Thanks God!!

Although VARIG planes are older by the moment, their pitch are good and their service much better than those two European carriers.

Nice ladies as well

Best Regards,

Fernando C. Fontes Torres


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3694 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4335 times:



Quoting LH506 (Reply 21):
+ MEX 1 Frame, though 762

Oh yes! I forgot! It gets even worse.


25 JJMNGR : Sorry to some of you but some things really makes me laugh...... This fantastic company is using fantastic B763s and they have plenty of them to opera
26 Dellatorre : While RG is trying to come back to Europe, TAM has already established itself in the main markets, which are CDG & LHR, apart from MXP. There is no w
27 C010T3 : I think your mixing up old RG with new RG. I do not see a reason for the sarcasm here. If you think RG+G3 doesn't pose a threat to JJ, why did you wa
28 JJMNGR : Sorry but your thoughts are wrong. First I don´t think they are a threat to JJ nor to anybody else. To me there is no difference between the
29 AwysBSB : I wonder if G3 will operate interlines for those RG's international services.
30 WFM : The competition is big between Europe and Brazil. When I make a search for tickets from CPH to somewhere in Brazil I usually get TAM as the cheapest.
31 G-CIVP : That's if the flight operates. The Varig flight into LHR has been very hit and miss of late.
32 Dellatorre : Very well said!!! Some members think that with RG relaunching all of those flights just over 4-6 months, they are going to rule the skies and become
33 C010T3 : Some people cannot live with criticism. I don't know why Incitatus' comments led to these harsh posts with indirect but personal messages.
34 Post contains images Incitatus : Isn't it great to have such thoughtful comments from an unbiased source? Now if you cared to comment on the difficulty at TAM about running a mish-ma
35 LipeGIG : Well, a single flight to GIG (a place where MAD is serviced just 11 weekly) makes more sense to me than add 2 new flights to a destination already se
36 Glennpower : LipeGIG/JJMNGR, What can i say,you two have always made constructive comments that as a frequent flyer to Brasil over the last 17 years,i almost total
37 C010T3 : The fact that people ignore the fact that the 767's interiors will be retrofitted just amazes me. I'm not defending their current situation, but the f
38 SJOtoLIR : Despite the fact posted out previously, those flights to New York City area may involve JFK instead EWR due merely to marketing reasons, based on the
39 Brasuca : How can you comfortably mock VARIG’s fleet whereas TAM is flying old MD11s from the old VARIG to top markets Paris and Milan? How dare you jeer VAR
40 Post contains images C010T3 :
41 Post contains images Copacabana : As of 2008 TAM will be flying brand new 777-300ER, while Varig will still operate a bunch of old 767s. I f you mean the quality of service offered by
42 Post contains links Glennpower : Quoteing Brasuca,,,, How can you comfortably mock VARIG’s fleet whereas TAM is flying old MD11s from the old VARIG to top markets Paris and Milan? E
43 Brasuca : Copacabana, If we lean against something with passion or fundamentalist thoughts, we will hold nothing else than a biased view thereupon. That's what
44 Incitatus : FACT: Most passengers have no clue what kind of aircraft they are flying on. FACT: Most J class passengers are traveling for business and have limite
45 LipeGIG : SJOtoLIR, the reason i heard is that JFK is now under FAA discussions to cut flights during the peak times. Slots are not available and as the flight
46 Brasuca : IIRC, the aforementioned losses of TAM and GOL are referred to before TAM's fatal accident, thus before their flights cutback in CGH.
47 Incitatus : But is it not the correct business logic? Holding rights (not slots) should be first priority. Without the rights, there is no Varig service, good or
48 LipeGIG : If you're looking for business customers, i don't think so. And the strategy seems to be wrong because ANAC managed to increase bilaterals with Franc
49 Post contains images Dellatorre : This is what I've been saying for quite sometime...... FRA is the best example!! I don't understand why are you using this as an comparison. RG will
50 Incitatus : When it comes to A330/340/767/777/MD11, a better aircraft is a question of personal preference which the majority of travelers do not have. Most attr
51 Incitatus : There is also no guarantee that OceanAir will not apply for rights that Varig can get currently, which would make Varig's situation more tricky. Espe
52 LipeGIG : Yes, and we saw that in the case of France, AF managed also to increase their flights and now is using 28 weekly frequencies ! Italy is looking to in
53 Dellatorre : To be honest, I believe most regular pax in Brazil don't even know what Oceanair is. Maybe after their BRA take over, which gave them some media cove
54 Cedars747 : Great news for Varig.As I said before VARIG WILL NEVER DIE.As a support for VArig ,I will fly RG on my next trip to Argentina Grande Varig ! Alex!!!
55 LH506 : Actually they use currently 17 and will use 18 for pax flights: 7x FRA-GRU LH 7x MUC-GRU LH 3x FRA-SSA DE (Mo, Wed, Sat) 1x FRA-REC DE not started af
56 Brasuca : I don't agree with you. Brazil policy towards air rights bilaterals has become quite liberal in recent times. The latest bilateral agreements signed
57 Post contains images EMB195ER : Hi guys, Once this topic moved to a RG x JJ fight I promised to myself that I would stop reading it, but here I am again ... not only reading but also
58 Incitatus : I regard India as ahead of the game in this point when compared to Brazil. Our bilateral with India basically states that India does not give a damn
59 JJMNGR : I continue with same opinion but to position the aircraft at GIG to operate JJ8054/55 this has to be done. If the leg GRU/GIG/GRU would not be done b
60 AF022 : I hate to ask again, but does anyone know when RG will start using the B762 they took from Malev? Atlhough I have read they will use it to MEX, it see
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