Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Global Pilot Shortage  
User currently offlineHagic From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

On the Canadian news today:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/11/21/pilot-shortage.html

"The shortage of commercial pilots flying the skies above Canada and the world over is so serious that the International Civil Aviation Organization predicts at least 15,000 new pilots will be needed every year in the next two decades. Canada and the U.S. will need at least 60,000 new pilots by 2020.".


I wonder if the ICAO, the governments or aviation authorities will have to modify the standards and qualifications for new pilots so they can get more new pilots into the job market. At least, they would have to make the certification more affordable for new pilots. In any case, I don't think the pilots will ever have the status they once enjoyed up to some years ago.

On that regard, I particularly like the featured sentence in the article:

"'With the advent of low-fare airlines, really [a pilot has] just become a glorified bus-driver."


There's only one freedom of the press: That of the survivors - (G. Arciniegas)
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2877 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3074 times:

This is sad, but very true. The cost associated with becoming a pilot through colleges/universities is amazing. Even for state schools where the tuition can be low, the flight fees are so high that students will be in debt for many years to come. The flight costs will continue to skyrocket with the price of gas which I don't see going significantly lower anytime soon, which not only puts a damper on the pocket for those who are flight training, but the rest of the GA community as well since the $100 burger is now a lot more or a much shorter flight away.

 cry   cry 



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3064 times:



Quoting CBC:
Corriveau said that an airline in the U.S. last month had to cancel four per cent of its flights because no flight crews were available.

Now that has nothing to do with a shortage. If the airlines were willing to hire more pilots they wouldn't have this issue.
Until salaries go up, we are going to see this shortage become more of a problem.
This is a good thing for me though... Less applicants to compete with  Wink


AF340


User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3044 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Not only is cost an issue so are the requirements for an FAA medical. We are becoming a very medicated society and many drugs are a no no to the FAA. The conditions many young people are diagnosed with and medicated for when they are teens could disqualify them as pilots later in life.

I took a drug that was off limits according to the FAA. I stopped taking it and passed my class 3 exam. I could have lied and said I didn't take it and the doctor would not have known. After seven months off this particular drug I needed to go back on because things were not working out well without it. If I were to try to get my medical again I would be denied. The drug I take is for a non life threatening condition. When I took ground school classes our instructor talked about avoiding the doctor at all costs.

The FAA's draconian rules against prescription drugs needs to be reviewed.

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 1):
The cost associated with becoming a pilot through colleges/universities is amazing

Yes it is. That huge cost is on top of regular University fees and credit hour costs.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3028 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting AF340 (Reply 2):
Until salaries go up, we are going to see this shortage become more of a problem.

I think this shortage is going to make pilots a much more mobile workforce (no pun intended), which will definitively force carriers to raise wages in order to avoid being permanently understaffed and low on new hire and FOs. Countries such as China are lifting restrictions on foreign pilots to address the expected shortage, and new, adventurous pilots without spouse or kids may look at options beyond North America or Europe where they could find better wages, faster upgrade possibilities, more challenging environments or all of the above. A certain number of experienced pilots may be tempted too, especially the ones flying for legacy carriers in the US where they seem to be flying more hours than most for less pay than most (or so say their union anyhow).

Lufthansa has just ordered a few Citation Jets. I think the purpose is to speed up the training process for newly licensed pilots and get them straight into a regional jet, bypassing the traditional hour-building, experience-gaining in a turboprop.

In Indonesia, the air force is looking into loaning out its pilots to local carriers on short rotations to relieve the lack of local pilots while letting their jet fighters build up hours faster. This kind of solution could also be adopted in other countries with cozy relations between the army and the local carriers.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13039 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3007 times:

Over the last 30-40 years, many things have changed to limit the ability to attract young people to becoming pilots.
One critical issue is exposure. Years ago, a kid could hang around a local GA airport, do various tasks on the property and in the hanger and in turn get to rides and maybe some free lessons. Now security, labor laws, liability and conditions of liability insurance all limit being able to do that. Too many young people dont' have the time to just 'hang around' and have too many distractions of their interest.
Our basic educational systems far too often encourage people not to do jobs that require great personal responsibility or any risk. They are encouraged to do business jobs, to get into college, nothing that requires getting their hands dirty.
As noted above, the high costs of becoming a pilot outside of military service, even in a college environment (as noted) limits opportunities and toward less expensive educational and careers.
You don't have to join the military to get decent jobs or employment training, having to make a multi-year commitment to qualify to become a pilot if you can and you also have the risks of if joining of going into combat in Iraq or Afghanistan. Even becoming a military pilot has long odds and so-so pay for years. Then you also have the greater difference between most military aircraft and civilian aircraft.
The low pay of starting pilots, despite the huge responsibilities, is also a deterrent. One could get a college degree for a lot less and get a better paying job than a regional pilot with a lot less responsibility out of school.


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2969 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
One could get a college degree for a lot less and get a better paying job than a regional pilot with a lot less responsibility out of school.

Agreed. As long as there are low-paying jobs though, there will always be some clown who agrees to work for next to nothing just so he or she can gain hours. That is the single largest barrier to employers reacting to the so-called shortage by providing financial incentives. I'd have double or triple my current hours if I accepted every job offer given to me. But my license cost lots of money, hence I do not work for free.

You want to pay peanuts? Expect monkeys.

Quoting AF340 (Reply 2):
This is a good thing for me though... Less applicants to compete with

Don't you dare work for slave wages, my young friend. I don't care how much you love flying. Demand a living wage initially, and you will in the long run, be paid much better over your career.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1983 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2957 times:



Quoting Hagic (Thread starter):
In any case, I don't think the pilots will ever have the status they once enjoyed up to some years ago.

I think to the con-tray that some respect might be given back to the pilots as they are more sought after and become more and more scarce.

Quoting AF340 (Reply 2):
This is a good thing for me though... Less applicants to compete with

Well I was about to say something along the lines that Threepoint said. What ever you do, do not work for hours. Demand respect where ever you work, not only in pay but working conditions as well.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 6):
Don't you dare work for slave wages, my young friend. I don't care how much you love flying. Demand a living wage initially, and you will in the long run, be paid much better over your career.

Threepoint, I could not have said it better myself. I think this is a good opportunity for us as pilots to get the ball back in our court. Welcome to my RU list!



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineHagic From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2913 times:



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 7):
Quoting Hagic (Thread starter):
In any case, I don't think the pilots will ever have the status they once enjoyed up to some years ago.

I think to the con-tray that some respect might be given back to the pilots as they are more sought after and become more and more scarce.

I agree with you ZBBYLW. I probably said it wrong. By status I meant wages, benefits, compensations, off-duty hours, etc.



There's only one freedom of the press: That of the survivors - (G. Arciniegas)
User currently offlineItsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2892 times:



Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 1):
the flight fees are so high that students will be in debt for many years to come

this has been claimed many times. There is an obvious oversupply of pilots in the US still, with some regionals paying poverty scale.

Until F/O'sat regionals are earning 50K a year, there is really no shortage.


User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2884 times:



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 7):
Quoting Threepoint (Reply 6):
Don't you dare work for slave wages, my young friend. I don't care how much you love flying. Demand a living wage initially, and you will in the long run, be paid much better over your career.

Threepoint, I could not have said it better myself. I think this is a good opportunity for us as pilots to get the ball back in our court. Welcome to my RU list!

No, the way to get is to give. Learn to do something well and people will pay you well for it. But don't demand it. Let it happen naturally. I have always believed that if you put your trust in the lord, and act unselfishly, this is the way to make a living. I got rejected by airline after airline out of dispatch school, then ended up being hired at what I considered was the cream of the crop, because I never lost faith. I am still at the regional level, but I am making good money, doing something that I love, and I don't demand a lot, just that we get treated like humans. But if you treat others like humans, they will treat you as such. If you start demanding right away, its going to cause a red flag right away with no experience at all, and will give your employers a bad first impression that could haunt you for a while.

Of course, my prior statement is based largely on my Catholic Beliefs as a Devout Catholic. Even if you aren't a catholic, I still think its good advice. But take it as you will.


Back to the OT, people have always talked about the need for mergers and stuff, but its always among the Majors. Where the pilot shortage is going to have an impact is at the regional level. The way this is going, and with the washout rates I am seeing at some of the regionals, the regionals who have the contracts with the majors are going to find it increasingly difficult to maintain schedules, and eventually you will see more and more cancels due to crew, which is really going to screw the mainline carriers. The biggest problems with shortages right now are Air Wisconsin, Mesa, Pinnacle, and the Republic Air Group. Because of this, Northwest, United, and USAirways are probably the most prone to this problem. If this causes these guys to start losing money (Acutally US may be a blessing in disquise since it may help ease congestion at PHL), this could be where any merger talks come from.


User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2790 times:



Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 1):
The cost associated with becoming a pilot through colleges/universities is amazing.

And many people who start their training never finish due to money issues. At my particular school the dropout rate is around 90%. Couple the low wages with only 1 in 10 flight students actually finishing up and going to the work force you get our current situation.
I'm hoping supply and demand from business 101 takes over the industry and if hourly wages arn't raised, at least give me a good signing bonus to help pay my loans.
Fewer available pilots in ever increasing demand, money has to go up sometime.


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 673 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2684 times:

At the risk of redundancy I'm not going to beat to death some extremely valid points made on this thread. But beyond cost for education and training vs. the return on investment, never have we seen an airline career portrayed as an unattractive second-rate white collar profession. Thanks to Jonathan "Rodney Dangerfield" Ornstein over at Mesa and a few other Regionals, airline pilots have taken it on the chin to the point many are saying take this job and shove it. Highly intelligent and trained people cannot be treated as dispensable slave labor.

In times past the Regional pilot could assume his position was akin to being in a major league AAA farm club waiting for the call to the majors. This is not occurring at the same rate these days, and in many cases as the pilots age well into their thirties and forties stuck in the cockpit of a CRJ, the clock runs out for a shot at the big time. Which brings up my last point: What is an acceptable salary for a twenty-something, single without family commitments, is entirely unacceptable for a forty year-old with a family of four. In that case, the love of driving to the airport in the wee hours of the morning and bursting through that top alto-stratus cloud deck to meet the morning Sun takes a back seat to your kids braces.

That's why there is a pilot shortage.


User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2624 times:



Quoting Hagic (Thread starter):
I wonder if the ICAO, the governments or aviation authorities will have to modify the standards and qualifications for new pilots so they can get more new pilots into the job market.

ICAO does have an easier way into the right seat.....(The USA FAA has not adopted this method yet and it doesn't look promising in the near future.) My personal feelings are not favorable. While for normal operations I think this will suffice but not sure about irregular operations/emergencies with out hours of "stick flying" under your belt. I do feel the quality of your time is more important then reaching a pre-determined number.

Once again is outsourcing good in the long run? How did Mesa grow so big so fast? By paying such low wages while still making huge profits. (relative to the industry in general) More $$ in JO's pocket and less to the employees.

I would love to fly but I can't afford the pay cut. I do have a CPL/SEL/Instrument with 500 hours. All I would need is to get current and obtain a Multi. But with the wages at a regional I wouldn'[t be able to pay my bills.

http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/multicrew/index.htm

Multi-crew pilot licence (MPL)
A new pilot qualification has been established by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) specifically for airline co-pilots.

The new licence was incorporated into ICAO Annex 1 (Personnel Licensing) in November 2006. It is based on the recommendations of ICAO's flight crew licensing training panel (FCLTP) which held a series of meetings on MPL during 2004 and 2005. The meetings were prompted by calls from industry for better ways to train co-pilots amid mounting evidence that deficits in teamwork were major contributors to airline accidents.

The MPL is designed to develop the abilities needed to fly multi-crew airline aeroplanes. Compared to traditional training pathways it makes greater use of simulators, adopts competency-based-training methods and further applies human factors and threat and error management in all phases of training.

Traditional training methods emphasise independence and individual skills. While appropriate for single-pilot operations, they can impede the transfer to multi-crew operations. Pilots moving to work in airlines have needed bridging training.

ICAO has also issued a new set of procedures for training, and has set them out in its PANS-TRG (procedures for air navigation services – training) document, which shifts the focus from prescriptive flying hour requirements to competency-based training and assessment.

The new procedures put more emphasis on simulator training including the use of simulated air traffic control. Pilots will still be able to take the traditional pathway to qualifying to fly as co-pilot, progressing from the private pilot licence through the commercial licence to the air transport pilot licence.

The MPL was incorporated into the European pilot licensing regulations on 1 December 2006.


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2575 times:

Quoting Apodino (Reply 10):
If you start demanding right away, its going to cause a red flag right away with no experience at all, and will give your employers a bad first impression that could haunt you for a while.

I think perhaps you misinterpreted my post. Nobody is advocating a young, fresh-out-of-flightschool pilot begin demanding his or her terms to a company's chief pilot. One can't expect $60K for an entry-level C-206 driver or right-seat spot in a King Air. What I am saying is that the piot should not, in my opinion, accept the more traditional methods of securing that 'elusive' first job.

A pilot should not be too proud to sweep the hangar floor and fuel & wash the airplanes. A pilot should not be hired solely to sweep the floor and clean the airplanes. Too often this is used as an excuse by employers to see if the prospective flyer has 'the character' they're looking for. Actually, it's a way to dangle a carrot to a pilot long enough to entice him to stick around unti the next inevitable departure. I say inevitable because the conditions and pay are generally so inadequate that pilots leap at the opportuntiy to advance or simply turn to a more lucrative profession.

Nor should our budding pilots accept these ridiculous 'training bonds'. I can understand the position of the employer who is too often stung by investing the time and money into training somebody new on their equipment, only to have that person jump to a competitor a few months down the road. The jump is rarely due to betrayal or a lack of loyalty - the jump is made because the pilot can't survive on the low wages offered at their current workplace.
If you, as a pilot, agree to pay a bond (essentially, paying the employer's portion of your training) then you deserve the financial hit you'll take if the employer is less than honest or suffers bankruptcy. This has happened in scores of local charter operations and even on a large-ish airline scale (remember Jetsgo anyone?)
Why are so many regional and commuter airline pilots (you know, the type who are supposedly among the top earners in our society) living like rats in a dingy duplex in Mississuaga, ON or Rosemont, IL for a few weeks per month?

I appreciate your 'just let it happen' attitude and your encouragement to act unselfishly and place your trust in a higher power. But until the day that that trust is reciprocated and the Lord breaks a lot more bread to feed hungry pilots, I'm afraid that we are all going to have to band together and actively change our fates. I'm not suggesting a labour uprising or a stick it to 'em movement. I just think it's time pilots stopped being so passive and start to realize what they are worth. I do believe the mainline airline pilots are fairly compensated and that the employer doesn't have a bottomless pool of money with which to pay labour. But on the entry-level jobs, the adversary isn't the big bad management; it's your own fellow pilot happy to work for free to gain a thousand hours. We are our own worst enemies - as long as we're willing to undercut each other, the employers will happily acquiesce and wages will remain at $28K annually for a chump in an RJ. Will that qualify you for a mortgage in Mississauga or Rosemont?

[Edited 2007-11-22 09:09:46]


The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
EK - Serious Pilot Shortage? posted Sat Jun 30 2007 00:54:12 by Clickhappy
Pilot Shortage Will Cause Bad Holiday Season? posted Wed Jun 27 2007 20:54:59 by Flyf15
Union: NW Xld DC-9 Flights Due Pilot Shortage posted Mon Oct 9 2006 20:06:04 by Utapao
Pilot- Shortage Around 2010? posted Sat Jun 24 2006 20:51:11 by Clintoncutty
Pilot Shortage A Serious Prob For African Carriers posted Fri Apr 14 2006 15:01:18 by Ethiopian787
PR Pilot Shortage Causes Delivery Deferrals posted Mon Mar 20 2006 17:12:40 by Lumberton
Pilot's Shortage? posted Tue Jan 6 2004 05:16:26 by Piloto
Swiss Cancels 32 Flights: Pilot Shortage, A340s posted Fri Aug 29 2003 13:20:24 by Singapore_Air
737-200 CVG And Pilot Shortage? posted Wed May 21 2003 01:06:47 by COexpress
Pilot Shortage To Come? posted Wed Feb 20 2002 14:26:04 by Saab2000