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El AL To Purchase Used 744 From SQ  
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8686 times:

I guess all the specualtion that LY will stop using 744 as pax is not correct.

EL AL announced yesterday that they plan on purchasing a used 744 from SQ, and will use it as pax from end of 2008.

LY is also looking in purchasing used 744 and convert them to freighters to replace their "aging" 742 that are still used on cargo flights.

I am a bit diappointed with LY, instead of getting NEW planes (to replace the aging 767) they are getting older planes. I think those SQ are older then the oldest 744 EL AL currently has.

I hope its only an inbetween phase, i bet the idea is to convert it to freighter at the end. I can dream the next phase is to get 748i  Smile

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8670 times:

This is not good news indeed; more old planes...but maybe, as you said, a brighter future will come.
So, the rumour that said that LY would order 77Ws and 787s at the end of 2007 is untrue...



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User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8617 times:

I suppose that 747-400 the one that recently got replaced by the first A380-800?

Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?

I am sure they could make good use of even the A380 on flights to LHR and JFK for instance.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8584 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
I suppose that 747-400 the one that recently got replaced by the first A380-800?

Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?

I am sure they could make good use of even the A380 on flights to LHR and JFK for instance.

Right. I think (I hope at least) that they can afford to buy some new a/c, given their very high prices



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User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4358 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8538 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?

I still can't understand what's the problem with slightly older aircraft? A 744 is supposed to be used economically for 30 years, and it looks great in El Al colours too. I see it as good news if any airline picks up aircraft, old or new. It's a waste to scrap 10 year old aircraft just because everyone wants the newest of the newest. IFE, seatcomfort and meals on board can be just as nice as on a new aircraft, it might just be the airlines choice if it's not.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8518 times:



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
IFE, seatcomfort and meals on board can be just as nice as on a new aircraft, it might just be the airlines choice if it's not.

If LY install the new interiors - including the new AVOD seats in the new 772 - that would be AMAZING for LY.


User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8518 times:



Quoting LY777 (Reply 1):
So, the rumour that said that LY would order 77Ws and 787s at the end of 2007 is untrue...

Well this could mean an intermediate solution, couldn't it? After all ordering any of the mentioned planes put you at the end of a waiting-list of ages... Maybe I am too optimistic, but I still see a new plane order in LY 's near future. They can't go on riding those 762s forever  Sad

Purely from an enthusiasts point of view it is good to see 744s being used on mainline passenger services and not being converted to freighters all the time Big grin ...the queen will remain queen forever Big grin



Peet7G
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8503 times:

As for the 767s, they could at least refurbish the interior with new seats and PTVs a la Air Canada, and new bins (like many carriers, such as UA recently, even though it is not the real 777 signature interior)


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User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2172 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8159 times:

Will LY get rid of their B762s?

User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1420 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8123 times:

I know we are all a little upset that it is not a new aircraft, but the fact is the fleet is growing which a plus for LY.....I am hoping like the rest of us this is an in between phase but lets keep it positive that we get to fly another 744

User currently offlineSeabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5831 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8099 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
Rather than pick up old junk from others

 sarcastic 

You're like the rich kids back in high school who made fun of anyone whose daddy didn't buy them a new car.

I'm sure the ten-year-old 747-400, with which LY obviously feels it can make money for a good while, will be given a proper once-over before it goes into LY service. I'm glad the airline has sufficiently growing pax volume that it needs more VLAs.  champagne 


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8085 times:

Nice another SQ 744 has found a new home.

Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
I think those SQ are older then the oldest 744 EL AL currently has.

SQ has, as much as I know, already sold all 744s built before 1993. El Al received their first 744 in 1994. So maybe its a few months older probably, hardly anything to complain about. They are just half through their life-cycle.
I dont think its a reason to complain about this deal, and nice to hear that 744BCF will replace the old 742Fs, pretty soon I hope.

El Als old 767s and 757s though need replacement. They are around 20 years old and nothing a flag carrier could be proud of anymore.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8045 times:

Speaking of which, do the current LY 744's have PTV is Y ? I'm off to TLV on Monday from LHR and was wondering. Ta.

User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7969 times:



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):

Yes, LY 744s have PTVs in Y



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User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7959 times:

LY uses all their planes for years before even considering getting rid of them. They have planes that are 20 plus years old and are still running.

I still believe EL AL will order the 747-800i, They will convert 747-400 to freighter and purchase brand new 747-800i fly them for 15 years and then start converting them to freighter's. Their is no point for EL AL to purchase A380 because after 15-20 years their will be no use for the old planes. Like this EL AL can utilize their planes for at least 30 years.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7935 times:

double post sorry...

[Edited 2007-11-22 09:19:14]


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User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7109 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7926 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
Rather than pick up old junk from others, why doesn't LY order some new VLA themself?

In a word, money.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7888 times:

The question with a used 744 is not "how old is it?", but "how well has it been maintained?"

Offhand, I can't think of any airline whose reputation is that of SQ's when it comes to the statement, "only one previous owner". They treat their planes as they do their customers - and can afford to upgrade to newer planes ever few years.

For the lucky buyer, such as LY here, it's the equivalent of finding an immaculate 1966 Mustang with under 100,000 miles and one owner, a little old lady from Pasadena who only drove the car to church once or twice a week for the last 40+ years. An immaculate find that has been passed on like a treasure. LY will get a LOT of use out of these planes!!



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 weeks ago) and read 7770 times:

Fortunately, LY has never leased the 743 they wanted from Corsair!

[Edited 2007-11-22 10:48:23]


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User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2127 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7660 times:



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Speaking of which, do the current LY 744's have PTV is Y ? I'm off to TLV on Monday from LHR and was wondering. Ta.

The system is ancient and the screens are so small that you need a spy glas. The system dates back from 1994 so one of the first entertainment systems that was on the market.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7651 times:



Quoting LXA340 (Reply 19):
The system is ancient and the screens are so small that you need a spy glas. The system dates back from 1994 so one of the first entertainment systems that was on the market.

Indeed, but that's better than nothing IMO. BTW, why does ELD which was delivered in 1999 doesn't have a more modern system?



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User currently offlineQF744ER From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7476 times:

Does anyone know the actual frame involved here all is everyone just surmising that it going to be an older mid range 9V-SM* registered plane?

SQ still owns 9V-SMB and -SMD which are leased to FJI and these are 1989 deliveries....

For all we know it could be one of the -SP* planes which were dleivered 1994 and 2001, so it's not really safe to assume anything until exact frames are announced.

Also NA, why are you assuming that these B744's if converted will become BCF's and not IAI/Bedek BDSF's?? Two completely different companies and Bedek is based at TLV where they are doing conversions as we speak.

With regards to SQ B744's...I've heard NW is looking some possibly acquistions.


User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1719 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7434 times:



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
it's the equivalent of finding an immaculate 1966 Mustang with under 100,000 miles and one owner, a little old lady from Pasadena who only drove the car to church once or twice a week for the last 40+ years.

Would that be the little old lady from Pasadena that the Beach Boys sang about? Big grin



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6339 times:

My two main concerns are:

1. obviously safety - which we will not need to be worried about;
2. If they refit the interior with latest LY products. I am sure they will install new "F" and C class seats, but hoping they will install new Y seats like in the new 777 with latest AVOD system.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6294 times:



Quoting Amirs (Reply 23):
2. If they refit the interior with latest LY products. I am sure they will install new "F" and C class seats, but hoping they will install new Y seats like in the new 777 with latest AVOD system.

I don't think they will install the new Y seats since they won't replace the old seats of their own 744s and oldest 777s.
IMO, they will keep the old Y SQ seats.



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25 Semsem : LY is not in such strong financial condition. The cost saving must be considerable.
26 LY777 : I hope they will recover soon. what I don't understand with LY is why they are always losing money. Their a/c are ALWAYS full (at least on the CDG ro
27 Dutchjet : I think that some are missing the key point here: 744s can be acquired on the second hand market at rather attractive prices and LY is probably making
28 AirbusA6 : It makes lots of sense to purchase selectively on the used market, especially where then are airlines like SQ who turnover their fleet very regularly.
29 NA : I don´t know if it will be BCFs ord BDSFs, the last is even more likely if you ask me. I just found it too long to write down. How would you
30 LXA340 : Because this EL AL and financialy healthy or weak the decisions made by the airline where often not understandable.
31 Amirs : Actually LY posted on a few days ago a quarterly net profit of $41.2 million compared with $1.4 million a year earlier and revenue rose to $567 milli
32 Amirs : just read on their website, they they plan to upgrade the new a/c with LY interior "known for its high level of service" I wonder if that means old Y
33 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Year-round, with satisfying yields? Enough to outweigh additional costs by introducing that type? Very likely some LY managers have evaluated all opt
34 Post contains images Bok269 : There's a DC-9 operator based in MSP who can attest to that. Glad to hear LY is getting another Jumbo to grace the skies over TLV.
35 InbarD : If they don't change their interior to their new product, then it will just look strange. I flew on one of the LY 737-800's from FRA to TLV and it did
36 Post contains links and images LY777 : that must be the ugly 4X-EKI: View Large View MediumPhoto © Rotate
37 Post contains images NA : Absolutely. Old junk is a different category. You can call DC10s, 732s or 727s old junk today, but not a 744. These aircraft are far too new and too
38 Post contains links LY777 : LY said they want to upgrade only the premium classes: http://www.mccanndigital.co.il/elal/QCeos/en/
39 DocLightning : The 744 wasn't obsolete two years ago. Why is everyone acting like El Al just bought a few 707's now? The 744 is a 20-year-old aircraft. It's newer th
40 PanAm747 : It might be, but technically it was Jan & Dean: ...But locked behind door of that old garage is a brand-new bright-red superstock Dodge... And everyb
41 Amirs : " target=_blank>http://www.mccanndigital.co.il/elal/...s/en/ on the new 772, the Y class is also upgraded. the seats are better and AVOD. The differe
42 LY777 : Yes, my cousin flew one of the new 772 CDG-TLV, and told me that it was GREAT. Do you mean for the 744 that will arrive in 2008, or for all the 777/7
43 Ilyag : LY's Y product is a disgrace on the older planes. The only good thing about their 744's Y cabin is 34" seat pitch. I know that most of their profits c
44 LY777 : same for the TLV-CDG route, as I said. The problem is that AF can't compete with LY on this route with their tiny A320s
45 Ilyag : Why not? Personally, I don't care about the IFE for a 4h flight. Give me A320 in relatively good condition over one of the first 762s any day. AF doe
46 Semsem : Ilyag I disagree that DL and CO have a better Y product. In terms of overall service LY in my opinion is a zillion times better than the US carriers a
47 Post contains images LXA340 : " target=_blank>http://www.mccanndigital.co.il/elal/...s/en/ Something was mentioned there that LY will open a renovated King David Lounge in 2008 at
48 Semsem : I agree. The A320 is a very pleasant aircraft.
49 LXA340 : The A32S aircraft also fly faster than the B737's. On LY's longer european routes the flying time could be accelerated by 10 -20 minutes. Also the A3
50 LY777 : I disagree concerning the cruising speed: the difference is really minimal: mach 0.785 for the 737NG vs 0.79 for the A320. I think a such a small dif
51 LTBEWR : Despite many full flights, El Al's extremely high levels of security and high labor costs, that they were largely privatized in recent years and is no
52 Lightsaber : High Fuel burn versus the 77W, A332, 787, A350, and A380 (on a per seat basis). At $99/bbl, its tough to compete with old sheet metal. Unless... LY w
53 IAD380 : Is LY buying only one 744, or is it embarking on a program to expand its fleet by buying both used and new aircraft? The 744 seems suited for only one
54 LY777 : the problem is money; if they had money, they would have got rid of their old 767s
55 Amirs : We might see LY buying more 744 if they plan on finally scraping the old 742 and converting pax 744 into freighters - and at the same time keep their
56 IAD380 : LY isn't bankrupt. They have the same problem as other airlines. Fleet modernization is extremely expensive and the money to acquire or upgrade aircr
57 AF022 : There is a widebody squeeze right now. The B762 must have some value, no? Its not like LY would be buying new aircraft without generating money from
58 LXA340 : I was on an LY flight from ZRH to TLV with a B737-700 last yeat and the flying time was 3h40mins. This was an exception that I took LY as I usually o
59 LY777 : That's interesting, but maybe it is not due to the a/c. For example, I flew TLV-CDG 2 years ago on a 744 (mach 0.85), and it took us 4h40; last summe
60 N1120A : This is actually quite a smart move for LY, who can definitely see a benefit from operating an aircraft with long range and excellent per seat efficie
61 IAD380 : Why do think that LY should phase out its 772s? The 772s are the newest and most modern and efficient aircraft in El Al's fleet. I assume that you th
62 Amirs : BKK in the summer BOM JNB BOM Beijing CDG/LHR and other 762/3 european routes. MIA YYZ Maybe expansion to NRT, ICN, Shaghai, GRU, EZE etc. The 787/8/
63 BEYauty : Question, given your analysis above about LY's Y product, how can LY maintain such high load factors at such hefty pricing over the competition? Does
64 Post contains images LXA340 : The seats were very cramped and unconfortable, food was excellent and air show was on before and after the film
65 Post contains images LY777 : OK, thanks! I will fly a 738 in december to Eilat, and I am not too happy about that. I know that we'll to wait 30 minutes to go to the toilets (only
66 Amirs : Actually i think the 737 are great.
67 LY777 : Do you think they are better than the 757s? As I told you, I hope that my 737 will have winglets!
68 Ilyag : There are several reasons. Some of them: - Lack of competition - while LY cheapest fares are usually high, they are still cheaper than anything else
69 IAD380 : El Al does not have competitors on many routes. It faces no competition on longhaul routes to India, the Far East, South Africa, LAX, or MIA. LY is o
70 Amirs : The service and the crew in Y are actually very very good. The problem is usually between a/c, because of the seat and the interior. 737 - good/very g
71 LY777 : indeed, the seat pitch in Y of the 763 is really outstanding; I was really amazed when I flew one of their 763 in September!
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