BooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 253 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1531 times:
Hey commercial pilots... how's the opening of east coast military airspace going so far? I got a bone pilot hangin' at my apartment for thanksgiving afternoon and he's curious about it. (Heck, so am I...)
Flyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1522 times:
From everyone I have talked to that operated into that area of the country yesterday, it made absolutely zero difference.
The problem in New York is runway and airport capacity, as well as the fact that all the airports are so close to each other. Opening up random chunks of airspace that have been purposefully designed out of the arrival/departure corridors does absolutely no good for anyone.
Sounds to me like it ended up just being a lot of BS from Bush to make it seem like he was doing something, when in reality, he did absolutely nothing to help anyone. But, like I said in another post, since yesterday went pretty smoothly across the country and there was this military airspace thing... even though the two have nothing to do with each other, Joe Public is going to think so and demand that more military airspace be opened more often and its just going to create a headache for the government, military, and airlines.
He might as well have put a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner behind him when announcing it.
Jpax From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1016 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1508 times:
My flight was delayed an hour on the ground and did two holding patterns for 'air traffic control' at first and then 'weather' in EWR.
BooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 253 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1508 times:
Yes... I agree it's BS, and we all know what the real solutions to the problems are; but I don't want this thread to turn into a "this is stupid/not stupid" argument.... We already have that thread on here somewhere.
Flyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1480 times:
Sorry, didn't mean to send it in that direction. My point is, it was all talk and didn't do anything to help anyone. Its not where the problem lies and our airspace system isn't designed to be able to just integrate random chunks of air otherwise not available. Just more airspace to put planes into holding patterns I guess.
Its like having a 2 lane tunnel that is always backed up. Adding another lane of traffic to the tunnel isnt going to do anything.
BooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 253 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1463 times:
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4): My point is, it was all talk and didn't do anything to help anyone. Its not where the problem lies and our airspace system isn't designed to be able to just integrate random chunks of air otherwise not available. Just more airspace to put planes into holding patterns I guess.
Its like having a 2 lane tunnel that is always backed up. Adding another lane of traffic to the tunnel isnt going to do anything.
yes. I agree.
But there's no numbers, data, etc. that can back up our opinions. Only the testimonies of pilots/flight dispatchers/etc. who have the open airspace to work with. That's the info my buddy's looking for. Evidence. LOL. We must find the opening up of military airspace as either "did work" or "did not work."
FlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1434 times:
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4): Its like having a 2 lane tunnel that is always backed up. Adding another lane of traffic to the tunnel isnt going to do anything.
Actually, I think the better analogy would be that it's like opening another lane without installing additional booths at the toll plaza to get the cars through faster.
Both my flights went well on Tuesday though. We were about 10 minutes late on both of them. After pushing back from the gate, we had to wait on the taxiway in DAB for about 15 minutes because of flow control into ATL. For ATL-RDU we were about 10-15 minutes late leaving because the plane using the gate before my flight pushed back late. All-in-all, considering the time of year, I was very pleased.
I hope I get similar luck on Sunday when I return to Florida.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1360 times:
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4):
Its like having a 2 lane tunnel that is always backed up. Adding another lane of traffic to the tunnel isnt going to do anything.
You must be from Pittsburgh?
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):
The problem in New York is runway and airport capacity, as well as the fact that all the airports are so close to each other. Opening up random chunks of airspace that have been purposefully designed out of the arrival/departure corridors does absolutely no good for anyone.
Exactly, none of these corridors are super close to the big cities... and just because pax volumes increase mightily over this period doesn't mean the airlines suddenly added 2000 flights a day this weekend. There are simply too many planes trying to get onto too few approaches. The only way I could have seen this being an aide is if a squall line/SWAP type of deal was happening on the east coast and they needed the military areas to go around cells for flow.
A340Spotter From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1973 posts, RR: 26 Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1347 times:
Think the ability to use the airspace going northbound into EWR, LGA, etc. on Wednesday went out the window when the airports went into a Ground Delay Program. Once that occurred, the routes became an extra cost of time and fuel, much like flying from the Pacific Northwest to the New York area through Canada, like what occurred as well.
JSD
"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
SPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2092 posts, RR: 10 Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1302 times:
Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 8): the routes became an extra cost of time and fuel,
How? Maybe I don't get it, but where's the extra cost?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
LASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1249 times:
When I took off from LAS on Monday, I did find that we were over LSV meaning that they really did open up the airspace. On our approach to EWR, the FO told us that we were put in a holding pattern and less than 5 minutes after telling us and making 2 small turns, we were out of the holding pattern and back on approach. I guess it did make a difference.
A340Spotter From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1973 posts, RR: 26 Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1218 times:
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 9): How? Maybe I don't get it, but where's the extra cost?
The routes that they opened up add about 15 minutes of flying time, hence more fuel and more costs...
JSD
"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
Skyexramper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1147 times:
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 12): Airspace over military air fields is open to controllers every day unless the field is within some sort of restricted area.
Exactly so does anyone know where the FAA got all this extra airspace from? We all know they didn't get Washington D.C open to the public without all the extras.
Flyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1123 times:
Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 13): Exactly so does anyone know where the FAA got all this extra airspace from? We all know they didn't get Washington D.C open to the public without all the extras.
As far as I know, it was restricted areas offshore that were going to be unused anyways, but still officially published as being "hot". They simply put out notams saying that airspace was temporarily cold and open for use by ATC for civilian aircraft.
Same idea as any other restricted area that goes cold during certain times.
And... therefore, it was pretty much useless to everyone. Due to being restricted areas, no published departures, arrivals, airways, or other routes go through them.
SkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1041 times:
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 14): As far as I know, it was restricted areas offshore that were going to be unused anyways, but still officially published as being "hot". They simply put out notams saying that airspace was temporarily cold and open for use by ATC for civilian aircraft.
Same idea as any other restricted area that goes cold during certain times.
And... therefore, it was pretty much useless to everyone. Due to being restricted areas, no published departures, arrivals, airways, or other routes go through them.
So because all the military training was stopped because of the holiday, they are making a big issue about "opening" more airspace, gotcha.
BooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 253 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1021 times:
Tb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1374 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 934 times:
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1): He might as well have put a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner behind him when announcing it.
LOL
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):
The problem in New York is runway and airport capacity, as well as the fact that all the airports are so close to each other. Opening up random chunks of airspace that have been purposefully designed out of the arrival/departure corridors does absolutely no good for anyone.
I came out of TEB Wednesday and they closed down everything over WHITE for flow which sucked because as I was started up and ready to taxi, they re-routed me over DC and the Carolinas and then down. We were told to expect about a 20 minute taxi delay and it only ended up being 10, which was a nice surprise. Then we just had the normal wait to take off delay of about 15 minutes in line for runway 24. Washington and Atlanta Center were both boasting about the open military space which didn't really help any of us because everyone over the water had to go on the AR routes which already cut through the Military airspace in corridors and that stuff isn't hot all the time anyways.
The big areas that I think maybe helped with airspace opening up was probably out west (over Nevada especially) were there are huge areas you can never cut direct through.
We'll see on Sunday, hopefully flow isn't too bad in the NYC area and I have an easy day in and out of TEB. The problem is the amount of airplanes in the air around there, all the bizjets and RJ's whereas in the good old days, there were only bigger jets flying around with some smaller stuff.
SPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2092 posts, RR: 10 Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 869 times:
Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 10): I did find that we were over LSV meaning that they really did open up the airspace.
I've flown over LSV so many times I can't count them. LSV is not inside a Restricted Area.
Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 11): The routes that they opened up add about 15 minutes of flying time, hence more fuel and more costs...
Meaning if they were available 24/7, the carriers wouldn't file for or use the routes anyway.
Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 13): Exactly so does anyone know where the FAA got all this extra airspace from?
Yeah, I know. It's the Warning Areas over the water. The Emperor has no clothes!
Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 15): So because all the military training was stopped because of the holiday, they are making a big issue about "opening" more airspace, gotcha.
Yes. Nothing was done differently than any other weekend or holiday. Bush didn't do anything but blow smoke up the public's skirt.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 253 posts, 
From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
