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Runway Inspection After A380 Take-off? Why?  
User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16932 times:

It looks like SYD is requiring a runway inspection after an A380 take-off. Why would they?

Also, this is often given as an explanation for delays at take-off. How can an inspection after take-off delay the take-off?

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePiaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16870 times:

most likely due to the reason that the 380's engines are so strong that it can blow debris { grass, dirt, ect,} onto the runway which could be harmful for other aircraft while landing or taking off

User currently offlineOvercast From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16801 times:

I think it is mainly due to the fact that the outer engines are near the outer edges of the runway. So there is a rick that some debris may be blown onto the rumway.

I think that SYD was going to do a runway inspection for the first 1 or 2 weeks of operations. The reason that the A380 was delayed was to fit this inspection into the busy departure periuod that occurs around the time of departure for the A380. i.e. delay the A380 to minimise any delays to other flights.

It look like these inspections have stopped now, as the SQ flights are far more timely now.


User currently offlineIahmark From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16816 times:



Quoting Piaflyer (Reply 1):
most likely due to the reason that the 380's engines are so strong that it can blow debris { grass, dirt, ect,} onto the runway which could be harmful for other aircraft while landing or taking

I don’t think this is the reason; the A380 are 70000+ lbs of thrust, B777-300 has way more power and has no issues.

The real culprit here’s the A380 wingspan (meaning the outboard engines will be above grass and not the runaway’s concrete or asphalt.

On takeoffs these outboard engines will be blowing whatever debris is on that grass and of course that could spill onto the runaway becoming a problem for the next airplane to takeoff and to a lesser degree the ones landing.


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3882 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16756 times:

Its a precautionary measure for a new type being operated commercially from that airport for the first time.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24917 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16641 times:



Quoting Overcast (Reply 2):
I think it is mainly due to the fact that the outer engines are near the outer edges of the runway. So there is a risk that some debris may be blown onto the rumway.

SYD runways are 45m (148 ft) wide. A380 wingspan 79.8m (261 ft 10 in). SIN runways are 60m (197 ft) wide.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16581 times:



Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
It looks like SYD is requiring a runway inspection after an A380 take-off. Why would they?

VERY-VERY common at many airports worldwide when a large jet takes off. We do runway inspections here in BNA every morning after the China Air 747-400F takes off.

Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
How can an inspection after take-off delay the take-off?

Ahh.. because the runway is closed until the inspections are complete



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16534 times:



Quoting Moo (Reply 4):
Its a precautionary measure for a new type being operated commercially from that airport for the first time.

Really? There must be some limit to this. If an airline decided to operate, lets say a Cessna 402 (assuming its new to SYD), would the 1st flight really require a runway inspection?


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16508 times:



Quoting Iahmark (Reply 3):


Quoting Piaflyer (Reply 1):
most likely due to the reason that the 380's engines are so strong that it can blow debris { grass, dirt, ect,} onto the runway which could be harmful for other aircraft while landing or taking

I don’t think this is the reason; the A380 are 70000+ lbs of thrust, B777-300 has way more power and has no issues.

Yes but being a twin the 777's engines are not so close to the edge of the runway as the outer engines of the 380. It's not just about the power it is relative position as well.


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3882 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16425 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 7):
Really? There must be some limit to this. If an airline decided to operate, lets say a Cessna 402 (assuming its new to SYD), would the 1st flight really require a runway inspection?

I meant a new type as in totally new, never been operated commercially before ever, so it would be prudent to carry out precautionary measures for a period.


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16394 times:



Quoting Iahmark (Reply 3):
I don’t think this is the reason; the A380 are 70000+ lbs of thrust, B777-300 has way more power and has no issues.

It's not the power - but the location of the engines on the wings and their relationship to the runway surface / edges.

The A-380 is new and everyone will be doing extra checks as it goes into service at different airports around the world - to establish a baseline curve and to learn what is normal and what is abnormal.


User currently offlineUnattendedBag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16325 times:

Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
How can an inspection after take-off delay the take-off?

There really isn't much of a delay to other aircraft due to the fact that the wake turbulence delay for other departing aircraft is 2-3 minutes (maybe longer) after the A380 departs. Plenty of time to inspect the runway.

Quoting Analog (Reply 7):
Really? There must be some limit to this. If an airline decided to operate, lets say a Cessna 402 (assuming its new to SYD), would the 1st flight really require a runway inspection?

no, only if there is a forseeable possibility of damage/debris after takeoff. I don't think the Cessna 402 would cause concern. If it did, the airport "should" carry out procedures for checking the runway after arrival/departure.

Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
I meant a new type as in totally new, never been operated commercially before ever, so it would be prudent to carry out precautionary measures for a period.

This procedure varies from airport to airport, it is not standard. With a new VLA, there is the possibility of damage to airfield signs or debris being kicked up onto the runway after landing or takeoff. It is only a precaution.

[Edited 2007-11-25 17:06:51]


Slower traffic, keep right
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16284 times:



Quoting Overcast (Reply 2):
It look like these inspections have stopped now, as the SQ flights are far more timely now.

The inspections are made after the SQ A380 takes off so how could that cause the SQ A380 to be delayed?


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16251 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 12):
The inspections are made after the SQ A380 takes off so how could that cause the SQ A380 to be delayed?

Say for example there are 3 flights ready to depart immediately after the 380. It makes sense to delay the 380 flight until after those 3 flights have departed so there is a short "window" in order to facilitate the runway inspection.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 16183 times:



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 13):
Say for example there are 3 flights ready to depart immediately after the 380. It makes sense to delay the 380 flight until after those 3 flights have departed so there is a short "window" in order to facilitate the runway inspection.

I understand that flights following the SQ A380 departure could be delayed.

I was questioning this statement:

Quoting Overcast (Reply 2):
It look like these inspections have stopped now, as the SQ flights are far more timely now.



User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2212 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 16148 times:



Quoting Iahmark (Reply 3):
On takeoffs these outboard engines will be blowing whatever debris is on that grass and of course that could spill onto the runaway becoming a problem for the next airplane to takeoff and to a lesser degree the ones landing.

And since a picture is worth a thousand words:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stewart Andrew



User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 16133 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 14):
I understand that flights following the SQ A380 departure could be delayed.

Reread Reply 13:

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 13):
It makes sense to delay the 380 flight

He is saying that the 380 flight itself may be delayed.......



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineUnattendedBag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 16109 times:



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 13):
Say for example there are 3 flights ready to depart immediately after the 380. It makes sense to delay the 380 flight until after those 3 flights have departed so there is a short "window" in order to facilitate the runway inspection.

What if there are 10 or 20 or 30 flights ready to depart after the A380, should ATC hold the 380? At most airports, it is first come, first serve. You can either hold one aircraft for 45 minutes or spread the delay over all departing aircraft, 1 minute here, 90 seconds there. The delay will work its way out of the system eventually.



Slower traffic, keep right
User currently offlineLimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 15158 times:

Quoting Iahmark (Reply 3):
the A380 wingspan (meaning the outboard engines will be above grass

Surely, that's an exaggeration -- the outboard engines aren't truly *above* the grass, are they? The engines would ingest all sorts of crap, especially if they're at takeoff thrust, i.e., "gasping for air"?

Check out the following video at 1:21 and 3:23 -- watch what the pressure difference caused by the engines is doing to the water on the wet runway/in the humid air... (And, yes, of course I realize that's a 777, not an A380 -- the point is that these large engines at takeoff thrust are a thing to behold...)

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra..._Airlines_Aviation_Video-7273.html

[Edited 2007-11-25 20:23:19]

User currently offlinePtugarin From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 14996 times:

If the problem is related to wing span, I don't see how it will go away in two weeks to make it safe to skip inspections...

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17365 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 14997 times:



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 8):
Yes but being a twin the 777's engines are not so close to the edge of the runway as the outer engines of the 380. It's not just about the power it is relative position as well.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 10):
It's not the power - but the location of the engines on the wings and their relationship to the runway surface / edges.

Did y'all not even bother to read the part *immediately* after the text you quoted?  Yeah sure

Quoting Iahmark (Reply 3):
The real culprit here’s the A380 wingspan (meaning the outboard engines will be above grass and not the runaway’s concrete or asphalt.




E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14537 times:
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Quoting Ptugarin (Reply 19):
If the problem is related to wing span, I don't see how it will go away in two weeks to make it safe to skip inspections...

The problem won't "Go away" but a few weeks of inspections after departure will give the authorities enough data to decide -
A/ There is a problem and inspections are going to be a permanent feature of A-380 departures at SYD(or where ever)
B/ There is no consistant issue and inspections can be reduced or eliminated.
C/ The problem is severe and steps must be taken to widen the runway, unlikely as inspections are most likely just confirming data that computer modeling already indicated.

There is a 4th option and that is reschedule SQ220 by a small amount of time so it feeds into a natural gap in the sequence but this will obviously not be practical when there are 10-20 or 30 A-380 movements a day

Cheers



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14486 times:

The SYD runway is 45m wide. The A380 is certified for 45m wide runways. But you really want 60m wide runways for a more comfortable operation. Syd is NOT widening the runway,

The outboard engines are approx 24m from the aircraft centre line, which puts them about 1.5m past the edge of the runway on a 45 m runway. In other word they ARE "over the grass". To minimise FOD potential SYD has tarmac sealed along side the runway edges, out to a certain width. I have not seen anything on how wide this "width" is, but I would assume about 15m each side, based on the aircraft wingspan.

This tarmac seal has been applied relatively recently and the A380 is the only aircraft "using" it. It is standard procedure to inspect newly sealed areas on a regular basis. I would assume in this case that the SYD operator is ensuring for the first week or so that nothing untoward is occurring with this new operation and that no defects are appearing in the newly sealed areas.

Reference for engine location: http://www.content.airbusworld.com/S...a/docs/AC/DATA_CONSULT/AC_A380.pdf

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineIwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14315 times:



Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
It looks like SYD is requiring a runway inspection after an A380 take-off. Why would they?

I have a feeling this will go away once there are some statistics collected.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 22):
The SYD runway is 45m wide. The A380 is certified for 45m wide runways. But you really want 60m wide runways for a more comfortable operation. Syd is NOT widening the runway,

Does anyone know how much farther out the 380 engines are compared to the 747? From this picture they don't seem to be much farther out, maybe something like 5m furtherout on the engine centerline?

Big version: Width: 1118 Height: 1494 File size: 220kb


iwok


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2368 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 13949 times:



Quoting Iwok (Reply 23):
Does anyone know how much farther out the 380 engines are compared to the 747? From this picture they don't seem to be much farther out, maybe something like 5m furtherout on the engine centerline?

According to the airport planning documents:

744 outer engine to outer engine span: 136'8" or 41.7 meters
A388 outer engine to outer engine span: 168.64' or 51.4 meters

So yes, the A388's outer engines are about 5m further away from centerline than the 744's.



oh boy!!!
25 Iahmark : See post 22 for answers(see below): ------------- Not true for 2 reasons: A) A380 engines are less powerfull (70,000-80,000 lbs vs. 777's 90-115,000
26 Post contains images Concentriq : I was talking once to some ops dude at CLE (at the old Observation deck, which is now closed ) , right after some private Saudi 747 landed, and he tol
27 BigJimFX : Umm... Last time I inspected a runway... (13401ftX200ft) it took about 10-15 minutes. Granted that's with 4 dedicated inspectors and @ night. I have
28 KC135TopBoom : Well, that really depends on how many people are available to inspect the runway, and how long the runway is. Here at DFW, with our 13,400' long runw
29 Post contains images Nighthawk : after two weeks all the FOD will have been sucked up, and there will be a nice clean strip of grass either side of the runway
30 RL757PVD : In my airport operations days at DAB, we had air force one take off one time and on takeoff it took out SIXTEEN runway edge lights!!! We only found ab
31 Post contains images Isitsafenow : If you have never seen a runway drive-down or inspection, you have not spent alot of time around airports. They happen daily, perhaps hourly at some
32 KC135TopBoom : The A-380 can only operate (in the US) on a 45m (150') wide runway if that runway also has a 35' (11.5m) asphalt shoulder on each side of the runway.
33 Post contains images FlyMeToTheMoon : They have a Concorde taking off right after it don't they?
34 Post contains images UnattendedBag : At night is a different story. I have taken 20 minutes on occasion to check a runway at night, and that is without any traffic. A busted light and FO
35 UnattendedBag : Let me also ask, when inspecting a runway after a departure for FOD, do you inspect the runway full length, or do you exit the runway after rotation
36 KC135TopBoom : That is what we look at, the actual runway used, plus about 1000'. Of course if we need to inspect for FOD behind the LH A-340-300, in July or August
37 0NEWAIR0 : Do you know if BNA does it specifically for the China Air 747 flight or if they do it because the airport is required to inspect the runways at that
38 YULWinterSkies : Would you like to see an inspector sucked in the next plane's engine?
39 Post contains images GrahamHill : Pardon my ignorance, but why carrying runway checks while this plane has been tested for the last two years? I mean, the A380 went to Sydney before, a
40 Post contains links Glideslope : Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 15): And since a picture is worth a thousand words: What a mess. Is the outboard engines thrust vectored more inward exa
41 UnattendedBag : The airport (we) is not required to inspect the runway after any departure. We have learned in the past that any 4 engine heavy jet departure or land
42 UnattendedBag : Because airports are different from city to city. The aircraft may not change and there maybe data on how it will effect airfield conditions, but unt
43 UnattendedBag : Aircraft engines do not distribute debris in a single direction or in a uniform pattern. Depending on how the jet blast hits the debris, it could be
44 Gemuser : I think that at SYD, can't talk about other airports, the inspection is as much about the recently sealed runway sides as about the aircraft itself.
45 Post contains images GrahamHill : Thanks a lot for your answers
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