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LH Complaining About EK Threat..  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11260 times:

Once again Mr. Mayrhuber ,head of Lufthansa,has complained about the threat coming from companies like Emirates,who have knowingly applied trafic-rights out of TXL and STR.
He anticipates more than 3 M passengers lost via the Dubai hub and seeks protection with the German minister for Transport,Tiefensee ( ..what a great ally to have ..),who is key to maintain the current status quo regarding EK's German business.
Coming from a company like LH-a true global player- this attitude is somewhat irritating,speciufically when EK helps to maintain thousands of jobs in Europe with Airbus through un unprecedented amount of orders.
Sure EK draws many clients via Dubai into the Gulf and Asia -but many of those clients never would have taken LH anyway,since lot's of that EK business is new bsiness.
LH does not fly to Australia-but could seek an arrangement with Qatar or Singapore-airlines by offering new internodal services from Germany to Australia or other places in Asia.Rather than complain-act !


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
101 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWingman From St. Vincent and the Grenadines, joined May 1999, 2099 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11208 times:

You Europeans are about to go beserk singing the praises of Airbus sales to EK while you depair over the inevitable collapse of your cherished "national" carriers. Something's going to have to give here, you can't have EK flying 300 widebodies through Europe every day and not have this absolutely shatter the financials of airlines like AF, LH, BA etc. Those will be the only airlines left within 10 years in Europe and they will barely be afloat. They all make money hand over fist right now but EK has what, 60-70 widebodies through Europe today? They're about to have another 200-300 in 10 years. So go ahead and build your 389, hell, make a 380-12 seating 2000 people and have fun on you Dubai layover as you travel from Munich to Vienna. Are we giggling yet people?

User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11156 times:



Quoting Wingman (Reply 1):
You Europeans are about to go beserk singing the praises of Airbus sales to EK while you depair over the inevitable collapse of your cherished "national" carriers.

To me this is an unfair competition and Europeans are gonna lose this battle. EK, QR or EY have lower fuel charges, a lesser cost base and do not pay their crews European salaries. On top of that there are no unions to protect their workforce. European will still be attracted by their attractive prices and better product. So I do not see any solution to this problem. For my recent trip to Kuwait I was given the choice between BA, QR or EK. I chose BA although it was not the cheapest. I chose BA cause the timings were better for me and also because I wanted to fly European. Many other colleagues would have chosen QR or EK.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8740 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11127 times:

It is not Mr. Mayrhubers business to consider the jobs guaranteed in Euroipe by the massive EK orders. He has to run LH and he is responsible to make jobs safe at Lufthansa and the various companies it controls and it is also hois responisbilty to give the shareholders some return on their investment.

He is doing a good job on that. Of course LH is a global player and of course LH takes a lot of 6th freedom traffic from other countries. They may find restrictions there as well and not every country allows unlimited frequencies. LH does not want EK in their backyard, which is perfectly Ok from their point of view.

It is the CEO's job to get that message across and since LCAG does not need the SHJ hub any longer, he can do it even more.

.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11120 times:



Quoting Wingman (Reply 1):
You Europeans are about to go beserk singing the praises of Airbus sales to EK while you depair over the inevitable collapse of your cherished "national" carriers. Something's going to have to give here, you can't have EK flying 300 widebodies through Europe every day and not have this absolutely shatter the financials of airlines like AF, LH, BA etc

I absolutely agree with you that EK is buying tons of 'buses for a purpose and Europeans should not want one thing and it's contrary...

on an another hand it's no use to put all the responsibility on 'you europeans' since the entire concept of "globalisation" and "no barrier to free trade" is pushed by 'you americans'.... what happened with general industry will happen to airline industry: the newest machines went to China which is now manufacturing everything, and the newest airplanes are going to the gulf which will crush our legacy carriers cornered between Easyjet and the likes on domestic + Emirates and the likes on middle/far east (not to mention the possible extension to the west with routes like DXB-HAM-JFK)



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User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11012 times:

Well, if you build aircraft and sell them, the purchaser has to fly them somewhere, and since Europe and to some extent the Far East are EK's main stomping ground, those competitors who fly there will have just that, competition.
As for globalization, Europe seems to have done a much better job "protecting" themselves than the Americans, so I'm not sure it makes a difference whether the Americans "push" the issue, Europe has been saying for years that they march to the beat of their own drum, so any fall out from this cannot be laid at the American's feet if that is what is being implied.

In the aircraft business, one of Boeing's stated reason for so much outsourcing of the B787 was to be able to match prices Airbus now offers for its products. Airbus is now outsourcing the manufacture of a percentage of its A320 to China, not sure if the justification for that is to do a me too or to go one step further.

In any event, if EK and others do take up all their orders for wide body a/c in the next 10years, it will very interesting to spend a day at a European airport doing some spotting.


User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10918 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 5):
so any fall out from this cannot be laid at the American's feet if that is what is being implied.

that is not what is implied
for American CEOs, banks, financial newspapers and Wall Street, globalisation is extraordinary and is THE thing...
any resistance to it and you're seen as outdated: now here we are, globalisation at full power is starting.
whether Europeans or Americans, everybody will see consequences on their doorsteps now

next step is AF BA and LH will have to hire FA in Mauritius, Ecuador or Cambodia to stay competitive, like in any other business nowadays.
likewise maintenance will be done by AF Vietnam or LH India etc etc



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User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8740 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10889 times:



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 4):
I absolutely agree with you that EK is buying tons of 'buses for a purpose and Europeans should not want one thing and it's contrary...

Why should a DAX 30 listed company, whose shares are 100% privately owned, consider the well being a another listed company whose shares are -to a certaoin extend - owned by France and Germany resp. German states.?

The fact that EK and EY order a lot of planes from EADS should not automatically imply that LH must welcome any number of additonal EK services to and from Germany. If you look carefully at the interview, Mayrhuber demanded equal opportunities and that was not purely against EK and the Emirates but more against the conditons he has to deal with in Germany. IIRC correctly, he said that taxes do not exist in the UAE and that the words "Betriebsrat" (workers council) Mitbestimmung (worker participation) and Planfeststellungsverfahren (planning permission hearings) have not even been tranbslated into Arabic.

I am sure they never will be translated and the Arabic word for all three above is the translation of edict.

Mr.Mayrhuber is not responsible for EADS,. As a shareholder, I want him to look after the interestes of LH and nothing else. He is doing his job, as the EK amange,ment are doing their job.
.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10798 times:

Next step is not automatic as in outsourcing your country's industry to other countries. The US is by most definitions the most "capitalistic" country in the world, and business in the US rather than politics generally drives that country, politicians usually implement business philosohpy rather than social policy.
To that end, business wants to make money anyway they can, if cheap labour is available elsewhere, that is where they go, reality is that what is in the best interest for Wall Street is not always in the best interest of the voters, a balance has to be found. Teach your kids fiscal prudence in school, on Wall Street that gets your stock devalued.
Europe is more national in terms of its economy, the UK less so, finding the proper balance will be interesting to watch as there has to be something other than the "industralized" nations becoming "consumer" nations, consumers have to work to obtain the funds used to make them consumers, where are they supposed to work and what types of jobs are they supposed to work at?


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10729 times:
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Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Emirates,who have knowingly applied trafic-rights out of TXL and STR.

So the question is, will EK get any more slots in Germany? These are the two airports EK has been trying hard to get into...

I do understand LH wanting to keep the crown as the world's largest longhaul airline. 'All is air in love and war, etc.' But how much of this should be fought in the public? I was under the impression that EK wasn't going to get access to either TXL or STR. Has that changed? Were the ministers looking for political backing on their decision?

It sounds a little public, but it does seem like everyone is doing their job.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3173 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10725 times:

Mayrhuber is just doing his job, trying to protect LH and its shareholders. Can't see anything wrong with that.

User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10643 times:

Now should Lufthansa Technics close their Dubai office ,because it's in the devil's backyard ?
There is an open-sky policy in the UAE that would allow LH or any other European carrier to use DBX as hub and do 6th and 7th freedom flights. LH did that in the past out of Sharjah with Cargo-flights.
Best retaliation would be to offer more Long Haul out of those places that ask for EK flights.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10605 times:

Quoting Wingman (Reply 1):
You Europeans are about to go beserk singing the praises of Airbus sales to EK while you depair over the inevitable collapse of your cherished "national" carriers.

I suggest that you go and check financials of those like Lufthansa or Air France and compare to those like United and Delta.

[Edited 2007-11-26 07:53:49]

User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10572 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
reality is that what is in the best interest for Wall Street is not always in the best interest of the voters, a balance has to be found.

 checkmark 

Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
Next step is not automatic as in outsourcing your country's industry to other countries.

it is for sure not automatic step, but as in other industries this might happen especially if legacy EU carriers have to fight tax free - low wage airlines

Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
Europe is more national in terms of its economy, the UK less so, finding the proper balance will be interesting to watch as there has to be something other than the "industralized" nations becoming "consumer" nations, consumers have to work to obtain the funds used to make them consumers, where are they supposed to work and what types of jobs are they supposed to work at?

I can't agree more with you
my statement was in fact semi-ironic / semi-forecasting of what might happen

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
The fact that EK and EY order a lot of planes from EADS should not automatically imply that LH must welcome any number of additonal EK services to and from Germany.

 checkmark 
that's right
I was reacting to somebody who said "you europeans", but your remark is absolutely founded



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User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10501 times:



Quoting Danny (Reply 12):

Quite laughable comment. I suggest that you go and check financials of those like Lufthansa or Air France and compare to those like United and Delta.

...I don't want to turn this into a "us versus them/United States versus Europe" war, but one only has to take a look at AZ and OA to see how poorly run airlines in Europe..and one has to take a look at AA (which has never filed for bankruptcy) or WN here in the United States to see how to run an airline company.

My point is it works both ways. Both Europe and the United States have well run and poorly run airline companies.

Regarding Mayrhuber, I agree, he is looking out for the best interests of LH...he's doing his job as he should be doing.. thumbsup 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5318 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10451 times:

EK salary expenses are significantly lower per person than LH's. I am with whomever said that LH should hub out of DXB...and I suspect they, and a few others will do just that. Either there or in the area where they also get to take advantage of cheap fuel, taxes and labour.

Halliburton is moving their head office from Houston to Dubai for those very reasons. Airlines would be foolish not to do the same.



What the...?
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10344 times:

If anyone airline becomes too dominant on routes you are open to all sorts of potential problems. Suppose EK continues in its massive growth and expanding to all sorts of routes and starts to put other carriers in jeopardy. And some actually get swallowed or go under. There are a number of flag carriers who are in serious trouble already. What would be the downside?

1. Higher fares.
2. Being subject to any political instability from the region the carrier is based in.
3. Loss of local jobs and has been pointed out above and replacement by workers at lower wages and with less benefits.
4. Loss of local tax income and ancillary benefits.
5. The upset of the balance between aircraft purchased and the need in the marketplace. Imagine all of sudden a large number of widebodies being put on the marketplace as used aircraft.

While I believe in fair markets and less intervention, at some point it becomes necessary. LH better be blowing its whistle loud and clear now because soon it will be too late.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10260 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
Both Europe and the United States have well run and poorly run airline companies.

Show me a US airline making over a billion in a quarter (like AF recently).

But my point was different: EK does no harm at present to major European carriers and it will stay like that for a couple of years. Should they pose a serious threat they will hear from eurocrat regulators.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8740 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10098 times:

Unfortunately, that interview is available in German only. LH should put a translation on their website, as a matter of fact.

I have mentioned it already above, but I believe what Mayrhuber actually said between the lines is, that he would like to have the same conditions EK has. Forget about the fact the the owners of EK are also the owners of the country, the airport and the licensing board. Even forget about the lower cost of employment in Dubai (on an overall scale)

If LH and all other carriers in Germany could enjoy a fast and rapid improvement of the infrastructure, making it possible that airports grow with traffic, that would help business far more than the alledged protection.

If MUC could get the third runway when needed, STR the second and if FRA had # 4 for landings already since 2 years, when the airport maxed out and if DUS could use their 2 runways to capacity, without ridicoulous restrictions, and BBI build as fast as JXB, I could imagine that LH would not object 2 each additional frequencies by EK to TXL and STR.

That would be euqal opportunity and even than, EK would have much more than LH gets in return from the Emirates.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8468 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
If LH and all other carriers in Germany could enjoy a fast and rapid improvement of the infrastructure, making it possible that airports grow with traffic, that would help business far more than the alledged protection.

I wish. (There is a reason I'm pro-airport construction almost everywhere!). I'd love to see BBI built as a 3 runway airport (yea... no plans, but I see the land and future growth potential.) Frankfurt needs that additional runway yesterday (not as much as LHR... but it would help all of Germany's economy).

MUN could use the 3rd runway too... (I'm looking at it on Google earth now... nice layout!).

The best defense is a strong offense and in airlines, that's growth. Although if there is a way to grow STR... please let me know (it looks very land locked).

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineBrisseDK From Denmark, joined Nov 2007, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8308 times:



Quoting Danny (Reply 17):
Show me a US airline making over a billion in a quarter (like AF recently).

AF/KL has done well, as have some of their US counterparts. One thing doesn't necessarily exclude the other, thankfully.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
I believe what Mayrhuber actually said between the lines is, that he would like to have the same conditions EK has.

Don't really think that Mayrhuber wants the same conditions to apply in Germany as in Dubai. Don't think the German people would have it  Wink

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
That would be equal opportunity and even than, EK would have much more than LH gets in return from the Emirates.

See, I always thought that politicians should make decisions based on the good of the country and its citizens in particular. But let's disregard that EK might actually stimulate traffic, generate jobs in Germany, boost turism and what have you.  nosy 

Look, it's a reality of life that global companies compete on different terms. A developed market like the German has rules, regulations, employee protection, benefits etc. in place, and nobody would want it differently. EK comes from a different part of the world. Not as developed, but growing (and learning) at an extreme pace. At some point they will feel the growing pain, and reality will kick in. I trust EK will adjust accordingly - and I believe that they will do it perfectly when the time comes. Mayrhuber should welcome all competition, as it gives him the possibility to show-off what a great company is made of.

Regards,
BJ



Frequent flyer based in CPH - mostly heading to: OSL, HEL, KEF, FAE and EWR
User currently offlineBEYauty From Lebanon, joined Aug 2005, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8261 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 2):
For my recent trip to Kuwait I was given the choice between BA, QR or EK. I chose BA although it was not the cheapest. I chose BA cause the timings were better for me and also because I wanted to fly European. Many other colleagues would have chosen QR or EK.

With all due respect, have you stopped to think about the millions earned in the past few decades by European national airlines like LH, AF, BA and KL by hauling Middle Eastern traffic from North America and Europe to the Middle East and back, and how much Middle Eastern carriers have lost as a result? I guess it's time that Middle Eastern carriers take a slice of the cake.

May the best airline win!


User currently offlineBrisseDK From Denmark, joined Nov 2007, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8229 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
The best defense is a strong offense and in airlines, that's growth

You are spot-on mr. Lightsaber! Let the games continue Big grin

Regards,
BJ



Frequent flyer based in CPH - mostly heading to: OSL, HEL, KEF, FAE and EWR
User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7976 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
...I don't want to turn this into a "us versus them/United States versus Europe" war, but one only has to take a look at AZ and OA to see how poorly run airlines in Europe..and one has to take a look at AA (which has never filed for bankruptcy) or WN here in the United States to see how to run an airline company.

Ehhhh!!! Europe has OA and AZ, the USA has UA, DL, US, NW, CO.... Am I forgeting anyone who hasn't gone in Chapter 11 protection and come out all nice and fresh? Can I also mention the likes of Pan Am and TWA - 2 of the airline industry history's largest legacy carriers that went belly up!

I don't really know if AA had ever gone into Chapter 11 or not, but I know that European Governments aren't allowed to intervene in airline financials or aid their national carriers, the way the USA can... And according to my limited knowledge, the Europeans don't have a lovely little miracle blue pill called Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection...

So please don't start comparing "poorly run European airlines" by limiting yourself to AZ and OA... You insult our intelligence!

... And in order to see "how to run an airline", AA can learn a thing or 2 from the likes of LH, SQ, EK, and others on the other side of the pond.

Cheers!


User currently offlineTonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7951 times:

Well LH better get used to it as we are now living in a globalised world. All aviation markets should be open skies. However I sense similiar fears in the US if the likes of BA are successful in having Openskies made more balanced!


My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
25 Qazar : I fully agree with you!!!! Lufthansa has always been an airline who valued healthy competition and strived on it. They are an extremely well run airl
26 StarGoldLHR : Everyones assuming EK is only going to fly to Europe yeah ? Sorry guys.. there's a whole world out there... most of which has poor service...EK can f
27 Post contains images Glideslope : Nice. Allow open competition until your product is surpassed. Then implement more protectionist policies.
28 Post contains images Jacobin777 : While not as much as AF/KL, AA has done quite well itself in terms of revenues and earnings... ...many have filed for bankruptcy but they have surviv
29 Col : EK has done well picking up traffic from the regions in Europe and feeding via their hub. They do it with a very good on board product, and good conne
30 PVG : I don't understand why LH and other European airlines resist the concept of flying smaller aircraft from smaller cities non-stop to Asia and 1-stop to
31 Post contains images QFYMML : Just a question - do you mean services to Australia out of STR or TXL, because LH already codeshares on SQ flights into most if not all of Australia'
32 Atmx2000 : Chapter 11 isn't government intervention but rather the company or its creditors using a legal mechanism overseen by courts to reorganize. Chapter 11
33 FreequentFlier : The reason EU carriers tend to be more profitable than US carriers is that US aviation is absolutely cut throat. The EU tends to be more dominated by
34 Chgoflyer : The trade policies of Europe and The U.S. are fundmentally different. The U.S. has a free market approach as long as the game is being played on a le
35 Manu : As soon as LH's economy class product is improved from the 80's/90's IFE, I will avoid them and fly other carriers. I am not European by residency and
36 Commavia : The other major difference is that for virtually every major legacy carrier in Europe - BA, AF, KL, LH, etc. - their international business makes up
37 Post contains images EI564 : Level playing field means...all US airlines been controlled/owned by its citizens.
38 Columba : This is also not true, look at two different examples Pan Am and TWA twere carting 747s around the world and are bankrupt while e.g. Jetblue and Sout
39 Commavia : And thus you just proved my point: TWA and Pan Am (two legacy carriers, one of which had a major domestic network and one of which had a domestic net
40 PanHAM : eehhh- have you heard how difficult it was for DHL to enter the US market? Contrary to the market entry of UPS and FX in Europe? The US is far from b
41 AIR MALTA : Nobody stopped those airlines from operation flights to North America at that time. I have nothing against Middle Eastern Airlines. I don't like the
42 UA772IAD : You cannot compare the two. At the time of death of Pan Am and TWA, both airlines were too large and faced too much competition from US and foreign c
43 Columba : Well the US domestic market is way bigger than the European domestic market so it is clear that you will find more competition but I don´t th
44 Lumberton : As far as I'm concerned the only "surprise" is that Herr Mayrhuber is the first to verbalize what I suspect many airline CEOs see coming in the way of
45 Fly2CHC : Can someone please tell me how EK taking away business from LH eastwards is any different from BA, AF, KL taking passengers from numerous German ports
46 Columba : I don´t can not tell that they were too large but I agree on mismanaged and inferior products. True for AF, KL and BA not true for LH which s
47 SailorOrion : One should not forget that EK currently has the right conduct as many flights as they wish into Germany plus they have 5th freedom rights. The only re
48 Beaucaire : If I consider the passenger-flow from my previous home-airport NUE,a lot of the higher-yield customers do transit either on CDG(AF),AMS(KLM),ZUR (LX)
49 Commavia : Uh, I've got the "market reality" just fine. I was talking about competition from low-cost competitors, of which EK is certainly not one. Sure, LH, f
50 JFK787NYC : Airfrance-KLM are two airlines that are in a 1-ONE Airline Country. 2- AF-KLM & Lufthansa is making a killing on the Euro exchange. The airlines a pr
51 PanHAM : compared to LH.EK is a low cost operator. Not to mention that they squeeze more than 400 people in one version of their 77W, they have a far better c
52 Delta777Jet : PanHAM: LH is not competing with Ryanair ? I'm not so sure about that. I can remember the times a few years ago, where Lufthansa raised many public cr
53 PanHAM : we can argue about the competition FR gives to LH but LH is far from having lost the European short haul market. Check their timetable. Possible that
54 Jamincan : I suspect that for Dubai, Emirates is only one piece in the puzzle. In the larger economic picture, they are trying to reposition Dubai as an internat
55 PanHAM : EK is a VERY important piece in that puzzle to position Dubai as a Hongkong of the Middle East. The expansion which is taking place there is, however,
56 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...given the amount of weekly frequencies EK has to London alone (between 90-100), I'm surprised not to hear BA...but then again, after NYC, Dubai is
57 Avek00 : Exactly. With the sole exception of the United Kingdom, each major EU air market has exactly ONE major carrier that can reasonably cater to the premi
58 PanHAM : don't put words in my mouth which I haven't said. I just made a statement that EK, compared with LH is a low cost carrier. The simple fact that LH is
59 Farnborough24 : Well this 'one long haul carrier in virtually all European countries' situation is surely set to change soon, what with the opening up of the transatl
60 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...you indeed made that comment and my comment was that because EK has the B77W instead of the A346/A333, they can put 10 across which means their CA
61 Avek00 : Sure, but there's only ONE big fisherman per European pond. In the USA, OTOH, virtually every major "pond" has mutiple USA-based players competing di
62 PanHAM : check the dates when they started using the 330s. The A300 are used mainly short haul. with an exception of a relatively short periodm when A300s wer
63 Delta777Jet : Jacobin777: I think PanAm mean that Lufthansa made a few years back advertisment that they only fly with four engines overseas. Of course today we kno
64 PanHAM : yes, difficult to get that message across to some people. Slight correction, four was not essentially required, LH had 3-holers. I believe that still
65 Sllevin : Ah, yes, the "better deal" being that in exchange for having to BUY slots at Heathrow, the European airlines can now operate flights from any point i
66 PanHAM : The European Union has formed a single market several years ago. What you believe is a "giant gift" to European operators is simply the transition of
67 Avek00 : Not at all true by any stretch or perversion of the imagination. The French, German, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Dutch, Swedish, and Danish air mark
68 Post contains images EI564 : Well, times are a changing. You are right as such because only the major European carrier flying from Madrid to the US was Iberia, from Paris to the
69 Abrelosojos : = I never understand this logic. Why is it "unfair competition"? Its their comparative advantage. Should I scream that Germany makes good cars becaus
70 Abrelosojos : = Would you have made the same decision if you were paying out of your own pocket? ... -A.
71 Jamincan : To a certain extent, that is also true for the US. Most markets are heavily dominated by one carrier or another. In some cases, several. I suspect th
72 PanHAM : has been answered by Jamincan alreadym and he is right. The US has to accept and more important - has to realize that it is no longer dealing with se
73 MD11Engineer : Back to the topic, IMO Mayrhuber doesn't refer so much to competition per se, but to the fact that EK is effectively a state airline with virtually un
74 Columba : They used the A300/A310s mainly on domestic and European flights and on a very few transatlantic flights they used the A313s/A306s. Their main longha
75 Abrelosojos : = Jan, perhaps lost in your propaganda is that the owner of EK are the authorities of Dubai, which has no oil. Abudhabi owns Etihad. National "champi
76 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...Why introduce a brand new airplane into the fleet when the already have an existing series in the plane? Not to mention, their B748I would be conf
77 PanHAM : Columba has explained it to you and I did not ask him to assist. Why can't you simply take it that an airline has a different opinion than the majori
78 AIR MALTA : Yes I would have done, the difference between BA's price and EK was only 50 euros more expensive for BA. I would still have chosen BA.
79 Abrelosojos : = Good for you then. I am assuming you dont have FFP miles with BA as that would render the discussion mute. Cheers, A.
80 MD11Engineer : Still, they have the whole country's revenue at their disposal and no problems with the laws, since the owner MAKES the laws. Jan
81 Post contains images Iwok : And don't forget that LH has a virtual monopoly at FRA and MUC. EK is trying to open up new airports but of course LH resists, because this would ope
82 Columba : Why is LH so far the only airline that did so while other airlines have replaced their 747-400s with 777-300ERs ?
83 Delta777Jet : MD11Engineer: Believe it or not, but behind the curtains also Lufthansa have a lot of power to our leaders. Please have a look at the airports Munich,
84 Fly2CHC : It would help if people did some research before posting such half-educated representations.
85 PanHAM : I quit smoking 25 years ago. LH started out with a handful of Convairs in 1955 in a domestic market which was served by airlines from all Europe + th
86 Delta777Jet : PanHam: Could you please name the source, where you found the information that Lufthansa contributed to the costs associated with the exclusively used
87 Post contains links PanHAM : That does not give much information http://www.munich-airport.de/DE/Area...r/Beteiligungen/FM_Immo/index.html but it has been widely publicised at the
88 Dazeflight : May I ask where you've got your 80s knowledge from? A look at todays Europe might help in evaluating the competition on intra-european routes a littl
89 Dazeflight : Are you trying to fool us? Dubai has the second largest reserves of the VAE, which is the 9th largest oil production country. Just because Dubai does
90 Abrelosojos : = Thats it - its actually a conspiracy by the entire Emirate republic against LH. = Please provide statistics to support your claim. Abudhabi has 95%
91 Post contains links Abrelosojos : = P.S.: I encourage you to read the Dubai briefing of the Economist for a snapshot of the Dubai economy - http://www.economist.com/cities/find...m?CI
92 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...I'm not, I felt there was something questionable in your comments and I attempted to point them out...its really simple as that...there was nothin
93 Avek00 : Lufthansa has had to deal with extensive home-country competition on DOMESTIC routes for years, this is true. But Germany is soon to become only the
94 PanHAM : forget about the oil. EK was given a start capital and left alone with that. The story is known and they don't lie about that. That is, from the star
95 Avek00 : Of course he fears the competition.
96 Abrelosojos : = Just like former "West" Germany supports "East" Germany. The point is? Cheers, A.
97 Post contains links Abrelosojos : OMG, I am soooo complex, I can praise and criticize EK at the same time. (YAY, pat on the back) ... CO F/A Saying That EK Toilets Are Filthy (by HAMAD
98 PanHAM : well, we have something here where the "rich" states support the "poor states". The Newfivelands joined that system of course. how do you know that?
99 Columba : Size might be the most important fact but costs and m/x are not really a problem for LH.
100 SWISSER : What is happening to A.net... I thought this was about airliners, not this rediculous politics bullshit all the time...
101 Avek00 : Because I have a brain. Every airline CEO fears new direct competition from a formidable competitor.
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