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100-seater Aircraft For Delta?  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6434 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7856 times:

Ever since Delta has retired their 737-200s and 737-300s, they have been left with a huge gap between the CRJ-900 and MD-88. Yes, I know that Delta has some 737-700s on order, but they will be used on a completely different mission than what the 737-200s/300s were used for. The 737-700s will primarily be used for ETOPS flights to Latin America, where the 757 is too large. However, for domestic capacity, Delta may need to go with a new 100-seater. Delta has also hinted at acquiring some MD-90s from China Southern, however, the MD-90 may still be too large for some smaller markets, and if acquired, they would be primarily used out of SLC. I have heard rumors in the past that Delta was interested in some Embraer 190s, but haven't heard anything since. Also, interest in the Bombardier CSeries is somewhat being revived, and could also be a good choice for a new 100 seater for Delta. If the 737RS includes a 100-seater model, then maybe Delta could show interest in such model. If Delta goes the Embraer/Bombardier route, I don't think it will have much effect on Delta's gentleman's agreement with Boeing, as they are still primarily considered RJ manufacturers. If Delta were to order Airbus then Boeing would be concerned.

Does anyone have views on this?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNASBWI From Bahamas, joined Feb 2005, 1307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7821 times:

I'm not familiar with DL's scope-clause agreements with their pilots, but if 100-seaters are allowed to be flown by DL mainline, the 190/195 might be a good fit for them. However, being that they already operate Boeing aircraft, I'd be willing to guess that Boeing would try their hardest to sell them the 737-600 to supplement their 737 fleet.


Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7814 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have views on this?

I think you leave me with more questions than answers.

Firstly, why does Delta need a 100 seater? CR9 seats 70. MD88 seats 142. 738 seats 150. Fly 2 or more CR9's on a route and when those fill up you replace the two flights with one mainline aircraft. How many seats are the 737-700's being configured with? I'd assume about 120. You say these planes will be used to South America but what is stopping Delta from using them domestically on choice routes which warrent an upgrade from the CR9 bus can't handle the 738?
Is there really a gap which needs filling?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
If the 737RS includes a 100-seater model

Doubtful, such a shrink would be uneconomical and having a 100 seater as a base model won't allow as much growth room needed to replace the 737/757.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
If Delta were to order Airbus then Boeing would be concerned.

What would Delta order from Airbus to fill this need for a 100 seater you think they have?

[Edited 2007-11-26 12:16:14]

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6434 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7782 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
What would Delta order from Airbus to fill this need for a 100 seater you think they have?

The A318, or a future model of the Airbus NSR.

BTW, Delta's pilot union contract specifies that any aircraft with more than 76 seats would be flown as mainline. Delta is somewhat "cheating" with the CRJ-900, by operating them in a two-class configuration to allow them to be flown by Delta Connection.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7771 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
CR9 seats 70

Actually 76...

Delta has mostly been filling their gap of a 100 seat plane with a mix of CRJs and MD-88's, MD-90s and 738s. I would love to see every last MD-90 leave the fleet and be replaced by 738s, but that's wishful thinking, especially if they're thinking of buying China's MD-90s.



"FLY DELTA JETS"
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7759 times:

Who is the owner of the CR9's?


"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7744 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
The A318, or a future model of the Airbus NSR.

Would the 737-700 not fill the same roll as the A318? Delta would probably configure them to hold within 20 pax of each other.

BTW: when are thr 737-700's being delivered? I see they have had 10 on order for the past 10 years.


User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7717 times:



Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 4):
Actually 76...

Tell that to Delta's website.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6434 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7706 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
BTW: when are thr 737-700's being delivered? I see they have had 10 on order for the past 10 years

They should be be in service by June of 2008. They are actually converted 737-800 orders, which is why they are listed as being on order for the past 10 years.

The 737-700s will primarily be used to Latin America, which is completely different than what the 737-200s and 737-300s were used for. They will be ETOPS-rated and will be equipped with winglets. Any 100-seater, on the other hand, would be used for short-haul flights within the continental United States.

BTW, I believe that the 737-700s will feature the slimline seats that were recently installed on some of the 737-800s, which should allow for a few more passengers.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22722 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7677 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
Would the 737-700 not fill the same roll as the A318? Delta would probably configure them to hold within 20 pax of each other.

Well, the 736 and the 318 are much more comparable. The problem with the 318 is that it's not an efficient aircraft except on very long missions. The advantage of them comes from operating other Airbus narrowbodies and operating it basically as a 319 with 20 fewer seats (which F9 and AF seem content to do). But without the commonality and the attendant savings, especially for a carrier like DL that does much of its m/x in house, those benefits are negated.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7663 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Delta has also hinted at acquiring some MD-90s from China Southern, however, the MD-90 may still be too large for some smaller markets, and if acquired, they would be primarily used out of SLC.

This deal is already being finalized.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
However, for domestic capacity, Delta may need to go with a new 100-seater.

Says who? Since when is Delta hurting for domestic capacity?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have views on this?

I have two. First, when did you become a fleet analyst? Did you give up in-flight products, IFE, and PSU analytics? Second, Delta is only hurting for long-haul WIDEBODY aircraft.


User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7662 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
They should be be in service by June of 2008. They are actually converted 737-800 orders, which is why they are listed as being on order for the past 10 years.

Thanks, I found the press release too.
http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10478

It says the 737-700 will be used domestically as well as to Latin America and the Caribbean.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
BTW, I believe that the 737-700s will feature the slimline seats that were recently installed on some of the 737-800s, which should allow for a few more passengers.

Yes, 124 seats.

So, 76 seats on the CR9 and 124 on the 737-700. Is there a gap?


User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7615 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
Well, the 736 and the 318 are much more comparable.

Right, but since the 736 is pretty much dead on the table, the -700 is all I have to compare. That said, the A318 is in intensive care itself and the only reasons to order either you already stated.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22722 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7602 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 12):
Right, but since the 736 is pretty much dead on the table, the -700 is all I have to compare.

If DL (or anyone else) wanted 736s for the right price, Boeing would be more than happy to oblige.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7511 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7579 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have views on this?

DL could just simply buy out FL and/or YX and get about a bunch of almost-new 717s to fill in the aircraft size gap.   

[Edited 2007-11-26 12:45:39]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineWeb From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7578 times:

The EMB-190/195 is available now. I think they would go with that over any planned C-Series or Boeing 737RS. However, whether DL decides to get 100-seaters remains to be seen; AA seems to make it work (CRJ-700 @ 70 pax, MD-80 @ 150ish pax). I think from what they've done in the past DL would rather send 2 CRJs than get a whole new aircraft, as the cost of running 2 CRJs must be less than the cost of running 1 new aircraft. It's all about money, really.


Next flight: GRR-ORD-PDX-SEA-ORD-GRR
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7567 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
738 seats 150

Expanding to 160.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
You say these planes will be used to South America but what is stopping Delta from using them domestically on choice routes which warrent an upgrade from the CR9 bus can't handle the 738?

The OP's imagination.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
The A318, or a future model of the Airbus NSR.

 rotfl  Keep dreaming, kid.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7554 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
The A318, or a future model of the Airbus NSR.

the A318 is a horrible airplane..way way way overbuilt for only 100-110 seats...serves only if you have other A320 products...the EMB195 would be ideal for DL. I know DL will be getting a small order of 737-700s mainly for hot and high operations


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3553 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7501 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):

If DL (or anyone else) wanted 736s for the right price, Boeing would be more than happy to oblige.

Trouble is, no one wants them due to their economics, or lack thereof. I think that's what he was getting at.



PHX based
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6434 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7189 times:

I wonder if Delta needs more international widebody capacity, what is there to prevent them from acquring some second-hand 767s? Delta operates both GE- and Pratt-powered 767-300s, so engine commonality isn't much of an issue. Perhaps exit layout could be an issue, however, Delta operates 767-300ERs with two of the three exit layouts that have been offered on the 767-300. Delta's normal 767-300 layout features two sets of standard-size exits and two sets of overwing exit. This is the most common layout found with U.S.-based airlines. The ex-Gulf Air/Asiana aircraft feature three sets of standard-size exits and one set of overwing exits. The only layout that Delta doesn't operate is the type with four sets of standard-size exits, which is operated by a few European airlines.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 970 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7054 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 10):
First, when did you become a fleet analyst?

About the same time you became DL's CFO, apparently, since you're signing papers in Beijing:  sarcastic 

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 10):
This deal is already being finalized.

By the way...rumor has it the deal is not (yet) finalized. (Ever wonder why the only airline in the world that could possibly want MD90s hasn't announced a deal yet, after months of rumors?)

Quoting Web (Reply 15):
The EMB-190/195 is available now. I think they would go with that over any planned C-Series

I tend to disagree...DL can soldier on with the "gap" between the CRJ900 and the MD88 until Bombardier develops the C-series, with a new engine and composite construction; it just might make the E-jets obsolete


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4742 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7019 times:



Quoting LawnDart (Reply 20):
By the way...rumor has it the deal is not (yet) finalized. (Ever wonder why the only airline in the world that could possibly want MD90s hasn't announced a deal yet, after months of rumors?)

Nothing final has been signed.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 20):
I tend to disagree...DL can soldier on with the "gap" between the CRJ900 and the MD88 until Bombardier develops the C-series, with a new engine and composite construction; it just might make the E-jets obsolete

Agree with you on this one - if Bombardier can pull of the C, then it might in-fact make the Ejets obsolete.

For now if DL needs to upgauge a route they can add a flight or two depending on demand. Apart for the 10-20 73Gs coming online, they're doing fine with what they got and the added lift from expanding seating capacity and CR9s/E175s coming online.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6954 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 11):
So, 76 seats on the CR9 and 124 on the 737-700. Is there a gap?

Sure looks like it to me- 48 seats is the size of a complete CRJ-200 for them. That's quite a gap. And running two flights is not as cost effective as running one, particularly if you're trying to time BOTH of them for appropriate hub connections. If nothing else, you have to pay double the landing fees.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 10):
This deal is already being finalized.

Really? Rumor around here is that the deal is dead. And I can't see anything to substantiate EITHER rumor- neither have any credibility as far as I can tell. I hope it goes through- as a passenger, I enjoy Delta's MD-90s.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
If DL (or anyone else) wanted 736s for the right price

But the 736 is just as horrible an aircraft as the 318. Heavier than the airplane it replaced (737-500, due to structural mods and engines), and expensive to acquire, compared to slightly smaller offerings from Embraer.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 10):
Says who? Since when is Delta hurting for domestic capacity?

Never- wholly mackarel, their hubs are insane.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 19):
The ex-Gulf Air/Asiana aircraft feature three sets of standard-size exits and one set of overwing exits.

As do the ex-Continental (NTU for CO) 767-324s.


I guess that, while I think this gap is significant and requires eventual attention, bottom line is that Delta has bigger things to worry about than this gap.
Like hostile takeovers from US, poor merger partners (cough- United), international expansion, etc.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6935 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
Firstly, why does Delta need a 100 seater? CR9 seats 70. MD88 seats 142. 738 seats 150. Fly 2 or more CR9's on a route and when those fill up you replace the two flights with one mainline aircraft. How many seats are the 737-700's being configured with? I'd assume about 120. You say these planes will be used to South America but what is stopping Delta from using them domestically on choice routes which warrent an upgrade from the CR9 bus can't handle the 738?
Is there really a gap which needs filling?

well DL did say they would be looking into a 100-seat a/c but didn't really say much(back when they said they would order 125 787s bye the end of this year(in France i think it was)

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 5):
Who is the owner of the CR9's?

some are Delta some are SkyWest

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
I see they have had 10 on order for the past 10 years.

coverts from 738s

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 11):
It says the 737-700 will be used domestically as well as to Latin America and the Caribbean.

but i think they mean something like a FL or NYC turn after a ATL-Latin AM flight.

BTW the new 73Gs will have winglets and there are options for 10 more



yep.
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6756 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 23):
some are Delta some are SkyWest

So if Delta REALLY wanted/needed this 100 seater, they could easily take some of the CR9's, convert them to 90-98 seats and fly them as mainline. Simple.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
25 Jkudall : 90-98 seats on a CR9? I don't think so. The most you can reasonably get out of a CR9 is 86 seats at 31" pitch all economy. I don't think you will eve
26 Boston92 : Me either...and for the seats, fine, but you get the point.
27 LACA773 : Wouldn't the E190/195 be perfect for DL on the "thinner" routes on flights like LAX-RDU/CMH/BDL/JAX etc..? AC seems to do well with the E190s out of P
28 BlueSky1976 : Bombardier C-110 would be even better fit. Not going to happen, unless DL starts business-class only transcontinental flights. 737-600 suffers from t
29 Post contains images Planemaker : The entire 4 aircraft E-Jet family is smaller capacity sized than the proposed 2 aircraft CSeries... with the C110 being even slightly larger than th
30 Flynavy : No kidding. Did you even read the thread in its entirety yet? And we all know how the "rumors around here" can be. Delta has already conducted engine
31 Flynavy : Initial routes: Atlanta to: Bonaire, St. Kitts, and Curacao. New York (JFK) to: Panama City, Port of Spain, and Guatemala City (SAQ). The 73Gs will a
32 Alitalia744 : These birds are N-registered I believe - making them FAA certified? 9 is the # I believe.
33 Mrocktor : They could, if the CSeries 110 had lower operating costs than the E190 on a per trip as well as per seat basis, for instance. If you make more money
34 Flynavy : Source?
35 Alitalia744 : Not N-Registered, my mistake.
36 Gsosbee : Unless one of you guys are the CEO or CFO of DL, keep in mind this is all speculation. IMHO, as many have said, the only aircraft that DL will be purc
37 Flynavy : No, it's not speculation. For those interested, Ed Bastian, the President and CFO of Delta has confirmed the negotiations. In a chat transcript with
38 DL767captain : DL already has some E jets from Embraer, but i think it is the smaller -175 and i dont know if it is operated bu DL or one of their regional carriers,
39 Flynavy : No. And no. The aircraft are EMB-170s, operated by Shuttle America (a Republic company). The 170s are being swapped with 175s in the near future as w
40 Pilotboi : Shuttle America operates 16 EMB-170s under the Delta Connection name. ERJs are operated by ExpressJet, Freedom, and Chautauqua.
41 Surfdog75 : I think we definitely are hurting for domestic capacity. The 737-200's were replaced by a hodgepodge of regional jets operated by anyone with a certi
42 Gsosbee : The speculation was on a potential 100 seater for Delta which is the subject of this topic.
43 Flynavy : My mistake. That being said, this weekly Delta "what-if" thread by 1337Delta764 has a number of "subjects." The 732/733 retirement was FOR the long-t
44 Flynavy : Additionally, I would venture to say that the traveling public is smart enough to realize that they AREN'T on a mainline aircraft when "Operated by De
45 Post contains images 727forever : If the deal does through,the airplanes won't be ready until late 2008. My understanding is that there is some heavy mx required to bring the aircraft
46 Post contains images PHLBOS : Hindsight being 20-20; maybe somebody should've said/thought of this up back when Boeing was still producing the 717. Yes, DL's 732s (& 733s) were st
47 Flynavy : Sure we could. But considering the type hasn't been modified or upgraded substantially since its launch in the 1990's to improve its economic perform
48 Surfdog75 : More koolaid? The retirement of older inefficient aircraft may have reduced the company's costs temporarily but don't believe for a minute that repla
49 Post contains images Flynavy : I agree with you. I never said I supported the recent surge in outsourced regional flying. And certainly the "long term viability" of the company is
50 Post contains images Alitalia744 : FlyNavy, Agree it is industry wide. But to Delta flyers, particularly those that fly solely on Delta for everything (business or pleasure) they only c
51 Post contains images Flynavy : I'm in 100% agreement. The Connection carriers consistently perform below mainline standards. Management is aware of this, trust me. As for the Kool-
52 Post contains links DeltaL1011man : "Delta has shed older planes, but hasn't purchased any new aircraft recently. The company is looking at large Boeing Boeing Co. planes and smaller, 10
53 Post contains images Alitalia744 : It's because we're the most loud, outspoken, defending, hell-raising bunch on here...   Well, 2nd to the Boeing/Airbus cheerleaders.[Edited 2007-11-
54 727forever : Don't forget the anti- NW DC9 group that hijacks just about every thread. 727forever
55 Surfdog75 : Well I'm not in marketing (luckily for all of us) but remember what those aircraft used to do from MCO a few years ago? MCO-MCI, HOU, ALB, BUF and on
56 Reltney : Delta will not buy airbus. Had them ....Hated them .....Not to get in a disagreement with the Boeing Vs airbus mafia on this site but Delta wont fly t
57 Surfdog75 : I would. Sure they've improved lately but the name still makes me think of Frank Lorenzo and multiple bankruptcies.
58 Flynavy : Agreed. I miss the days when DL was the dominant carrier at MCO. That being said, we still fill up multiple daily widebodies and MCO continues to be
59 Tornado82 : The cost of running 2 CRJ's is higher than the costs of running 1 aircraft in the 100-150 seat range. And on a CASM basis, the only thing worse than
60 Flighty : Delta is a big airline. They do have a big gap. They probably would like to fly a 100 seater if they could, at cheap pilot rates similar to B6 or US.
61 Surfdog75 : Wasn't there talk at one point of working with Boeing on a -700 or -600 lite version or did I just dream that?
62 Cubsrule : That would require some serious work... the main reason the 736 is inferior to the 735 is that it has the larger -800 wing (which must also support t
63 Okie73 : The DALPA contract has rates for the E-190 that are within a couple of dollars an hour of US. And at Delta it would be flown by junior captains and n
64 RobertS975 : DL may have filled many 737s in and out of MCO, but that doesn't always mean that they were making money. And the crude experience of the days of Del
65 Post contains images LawnDart : Eliminated totally? Or eliminated from mainline...if the latter, how much time do you have? And the fact that DL flies mainly CRJs from ATL to place
66 Reltney : You are correct Surfdog...Big time. My father started in 56 and flew everything but the DC-10 and 747. He did the inaugural 767as capt and was the ca
67 Planemaker : The above is also why the CSeries will not make the E-jets obsolete. Yes, if (and it is a big if) the C110 materializes and if it has truly compellin
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