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Mythbusters. Airline Would Rather You Die.  
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 16169 times:

Another great episode. That redhead (tori) has a myth when some guy sitting next ot her on a flight told her that airlines tell you to get in the brace position because it causes you to die instantly by breaking your neck because the airlines insurance companies figure it's cheaper to pay a wrongful death suit than if you are injured for life.  Wow!

They are testing the myth now. This show rocks!

So what do you all think?

Personally I would think you would have the best chance of survival if you got yourself into a position that most closely resembles a ball. Tuck everything in and have no limbs extended. Tuck your head in your chest and hope you can run once the fire hits after impact.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 16150 times:

This one's an oldie I think. They tested it and it came back that the brace position gives you the best possible chance because the force of impact isn't centered on your spinal column when you're in the brace position.

User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 16125 times:



Quoting Graphic (Reply 1):
This one's an oldie I think. They tested it and it came back that the brace position gives you the best possible chance because the force of impact isn't centered on your spinal column when you're in the brace position.

But wouldn't it leave your neck exposed to falling baggage or the actual compartments? I liked this episode but this was the only question I had about it.


AF340


User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3305 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 16128 times:
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Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
Personally I would think you would have the best chance of survival if you got yourself into a position that most closely resembles a ball. Tuck everything in and have no limbs extended. Tuck your head in your chest and hope you can run once the fire hits after impact.

Which is essentially what the brace position is, if used correctly.

As stated above, they tested this myth using Buster and were so confident in their findings that they themselves were put into the rig to test the myth. It was a success.

TIS



www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
User currently offlineJpax From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1018 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 16110 times:

It is an old one as stated above was was busted.

"Episode 33: Killer Brace Position
Everyone knows that talking on a cell phone while driving is potentially dangerous, but is it as risky as driving drunk? To find out, Adam and Kari head to a local raceway to try their hand at driving a skills course, first, while being distracted on a cell phone, and then after knocking back a couple of rounds of beers. Then, the guys strap themselves into their own homemade mock airplane and go for a little ride straight down to test the efficacy of that oh-so-familiar brace position that airlines outline in their safety procedures.
premiere: June 22, 2005 "

From: http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/my...ers/episode/00to49/episode-04.html


User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 16108 times:



Quoting AF340 (Reply 2):
But wouldn't it leave your neck exposed to falling baggage or the actual compartments?

it might... but if you sit up straight your head is exposed to the same.... so I think the brace position is still the best compromise... (apart from sitting backwards, it seems)



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User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 16059 times:



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 5):
it might... but if you sit up straight your head is exposed to the same.... so I think the brace position is still the best compromise... (apart from sitting backwards, it seems)

 scratchchin  True....


AF340


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 16034 times:

Makes sense, I remember when I used work at the track the jockreys always said that if they ever went down in a race or on the training track their first instinct was to tuck their head and get into a ball and roll. Gave them the best possible chance of survival and least amount of injury.

User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 15968 times:

1) From a money side of things, it would be cheaper for a passenger to die than to live for the airlines.
2) I'm not going to touch on the "would they rather you die" question because that's just sick



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15839 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
That redhead (tori) has a myth when some guy sitting next ot her on a flight told her

Hate to tell you, but Tori's a guy  Smile

You probably meant Kari.

btw this was a pretty disturbing episode if it's the one I'm thinking of. They found that a drop from something like five feet was enough to dislodge airplane passenger seats from their floor moorings, and they came out of that drop themselves in pretty bad shape. One of the conclusions they came to was that airliner interiors are not built to very strong specifications and that they wouldn't want to be involved in *any* kind of accident, however theoretically survivable, given their experience.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15708 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 9):
Hate to tell you, but Tori's a guy

Thanks, btw nice down the shirt camera shot of Kari at the end.

Was cool when they actually took a 5 foot drop in the sim.


User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15653 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 9):
One of the conclusions they came to was that airliner interiors are not built to very strong specifications

That is because the don't actually know what they are talking about.


Just a few of the requirements:


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...ode=14:1.0.1.3.11.3.169.63&idno=14

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...ode=14:1.0.1.3.11.4.177.50&idno=14

Tod


User currently offlineSkoker From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15603 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 9):
btw this was a pretty disturbing episode if it's the one I'm thinking of. They found that a drop from something like five feet was enough to dislodge airplane passenger seats from their floor moorings, and they came out of that drop themselves in pretty bad shape. One of the conclusions they came to was that airliner interiors are not built to very strong specifications and that they wouldn't want to be involved in *any* kind of accident, however theoretically survivable, given their experience.

You are thinking of the one where they tried to duplicate the results of the old story of the flight attendant who survived the 35,000 foot drop... they used an old CO (I think) plane and dropped it (the aft 16th) from a helicopter at 2500 ft up...


User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15517 times:

I missed that show. And yes, Kari is hot!! Sitting backwards does help survivablity. I can't really remember the reason behind it. If you ever find yourself in a USAF cargo aircraft equipped with "airliner" type seats either palletized or screwed to a floor, or if you are in the pax compartment in a C5, you'll find that the seats face to the rear of the aircraft. It's different in a KC10, the seats face forward. And the seats are always in front of the cargo. I know it's for safety. Sitting in front of cargo seems to make sense anyway, but to sit backwards, I just can't remember the reasoning.

BTW the only time I saw pax sit behind the cargo was on an RAF VC10, and on a US Navy C9. At least on the Navy C9 the one or two 463L pallets were very low profile. But that VC10 was maxed out, but at least there was a clear aislway on the side of the aircraft.

One little cryptic side note. Human remains carried onboard USAF cargo aircraft, Space A pax or not, are always carried as far forward as possible. I'll let ya'll guess the reason why.



EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineUnattendedBag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2328 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 15358 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
Personally I would think you would have the best chance of survival if you got yourself into a position that most closely resembles a ball. Tuck everything in and have no limbs extended.

you have apparently never flown before.  wink  I am on the slinder side and I can't see myself curling up into a ball in a tiny aircraft seat, much less some of the larger folks I have had the pleasure of sitting next to.

[Edited 2007-11-26 15:06:15]


Slower traffic, keep right
User currently offlineBoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 15207 times:



Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 3):

Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
Personally I would think you would have the best chance of survival if you got yourself into a position that most closely resembles a ball. Tuck everything in and have no limbs extended. Tuck your head in your chest and hope you can run once the fire hits after impact.

Which is essentially what the brace position is, if used correctly.

Actually, you are suppose to have some limbs extended. Legs forward and arms on your knees.

The principle of the head between your legs, legs and arms forward is so that you already have completed the movement that the inertia of the limbs would do in the retardation, only in a less harmful way. If you have a shoulder strap, you only tilt your head down so your chin touches the chest.



norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 15185 times:

In some accidents, it may not make as much difference what position your head is in. Still, like with UA emergency landing many years ago as well in many emergency landings, the 'tuck' position along with tight lap belts will save many lives and reduce injuries. Part of the reason for the 'tuck' position is to minimise the swinging of the upper body in a crash situation as well reducing risk from flying and dropping object or parts of the aircraft (such as luggage, the overhead bag bins). Another is lets say the a/c skids off the runway; if there is enough space after the end of the runway such as no structures in the skid route, in the crash position then there is a very good chance of survival in the 'secondary' crash. If you notice, the cabin and cockpit crew members use multi-point shoulder and lap straps with the seats very upright to reduce injury and death risk upon a crash/hard landing.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15125 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
Personally I would think you would have the best chance of survival if you got yourself into a position that most closely resembles a ball. Tuck everything in and have no limbs extended. Tuck your head in your chest and hope you can run once the fire hits after impact.

You do that. I'll keep my feet flat on the floor.

As mentioned, oldie: http://www.tv.com/mythbusters/killer...sition/episode/424874/summary.html

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
Makes sense, I remember when I used work at the track the jockreys always said that if they ever went down in a race or on the training track their first instinct was to tuck their head and get into a ball and roll. Gave them the best possible chance of survival and least amount of injury.

Roll where?  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15061 times:



Quoting Graphic (Reply 1):
This one's an oldie I think.

2 or 3 years old........



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBoeingPride800 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 430 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14799 times:

I watched this episode. It happens that passengers morely survive a crash landing or an impact, however getting out of the aircraft is the hard part. With the seats buckling under you on impact and such, your legs, knees and things like that are likely to break, and it is very hard to maneuver out of a plane with such injuries. With that situation, one would suffer smoke inhalation and fire damage.

User currently offlineDmanmtl From Canada, joined May 2006, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14760 times:

I'd rather die on impact than in the fire that follows...

User currently offlineUnattendedBag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2328 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14524 times:



Quoting Dmanmtl (Reply 20):
I'd rather die on impact than in the fire that follows...

Make sure you tell that to the reservations agent when booking travel.



Slower traffic, keep right
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14195 times:

Aircraft accidents are investigated rather thoroughly, more so than other forms of transportation. Passengers breaking their necks from the brace position has never shown up as a major cause of fatalities. As others have mentioned, the main purpose is probably to prevent getting hit in the head from loose debris.

User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13774 times:

I've seen this episode before. Pretty good.

There was a made-for-tv movie about that centered around this same topic. I forget the exact plotline, but there was a supersonic transport aircraft that went into distress over the Pacific. Something happened to the pilots and the passengers were flying the plane. The owners of the airline tried to get the passengers to go through procedures that would cause the plane to crash (and almost succeeded) because the head execs knew it would be cheaper for the plane to crash then to land safely. I believe it aired on one of the major networks. Anyone else know which movie I'm talking about or seen it?


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5457 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11986 times:

The movie was "Mayday"...it was painful to watch...but not as bad as the book...


What the...?
25 Post contains images Lazybones : I thought the brace position was modified after the Kegworth crash in the UK. The 734 impacted the M1 motorway after a controversal incorrect inflight
26 Post contains images Starlionblue : Legs should not be extended. Feet should be flat on the ground, with heels touching the bar under the seat.
27 Post contains images SkyyMaster : Actually, it's been proven in tests that the safest way for pax to survive a crash is if all the seats faced the rear of the plane (assuming it's a no
28 AirframeAS : Personally, aviation and Mythbusters do not mix, IMO. But that is just me.
29 Ward86IND : Someone told me another reason for the tuck position is so that your intestines and other free-sitting organs wont come up during the event of a dive.
30 Starlionblue : You said it. I am a big fan of the Mythbusters but they sometimes take too much of a "everything can be fixed with welding and lathing" approach. The
31 MarkHKG : The primary reason is the HEAD. When you are in a forward facing position, your head will move forward and strike the object in front -- even if you
32 Mudboy : This is correct! You have what is known as the ,"head strike envelope", which is ten inches in any direction your neck may flex. In car accidents, th
33 2175301 : Actually, there was some testing done in the late 70's that was very revealing. This testing was done on private aviation and small business jet sized
34 AirEMS : Kari is hot! Don't forget this position places you in the perfect spot to kiss your a*s goodbye! -Carl
35 Cloudy : Hate to go negative on this one - Someday someone could die or be seriously injured because he believes this myth. If that happens, I hope that everyo
36 YYZYYT : I always assumed that it also was to prevent your head/neck from being struck by debris from behind, in the event of a very sharp deceleration. No, b
37 Post contains images MD80Nut : Anyone who thinks Mythbusters is a great show needs to have their head examined. They use questionable procedures based on questionable assumptions to
38 Bennett123 : YYZYYT Some would say "just as well that they do not make TV like that any more". David
39 Yflyer : They did do a bit more of that during the first season or two. In the very first episode for the "JATO Chevy" myth they had a representative from the
40 Robsawatsky : I think you're being a bit harsh. It is a show for and by the TV/movie crowd, not research doctoral candidates in the various sciences. They use crud
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