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Impact Of TGV Systems In Europe  
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7032 times:
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With France already linked with a great TGV system and other EU countries following suit, how is this changing the aviation landscape. Will airlines simply become in the long run only long -haul carriers while TGV railroads carry the masses around the EU? What is the outlook? What are the trends now? What's happening in France?


MGGS
93 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSiege2L From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7018 times:

On flights within Continental France, for example, on AF 'la navette' or 'shuttle' flights, there should not be significant change considering the high-frequency of flights ( e.g. ORY-NCE, ORY-MRS, etc ) and loyalty to Flying Blue Members. The return tickets are reasonable considering the services offered to the 'Elites' - access to Salon l'espace or le Patio lounges, more threshold bonus miles, priority check-in, priority baggage handling, mileage accrual, and mileage redemption on code-share and Skyteam Alliance partners... when compared to TGV perks vs Flying Blue, AF continues to offer a very attractive product especially with the introduction of the new check-in procedures and streamlined security checks at Orly Airport. AF continues to improve their products from ground product ( Orly ) to aircraft ( CRJ1000 ), etc...

This does not apply to Thalys/Air France agreement between CDG and Brussels-Midi station as there are reciprocal agreements between both loyalty programs with the ability to earn miles/points and to check in at Brussels-Midi station for your entire journey involving your trip via air. Again, my statement is regarding flights/train service within Continental France.

My example is based on products and services on offer via Air France.

I cannot state fact or opinion regarding the services via easyJet, for example.



Flying higher than over your dreams...
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9182 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6992 times:



Quoting Siege2L (Reply 1):

Interesting post.

I am actually doing a research paper on the EU and high-speed rail service and I am focusing on the Chunnel and a possible under-sea rail link between Ireland and the UK. One of my research articles says that the EU is pretty much investing money into upgrading the rail network to have high speed regional rail essentially complement air service. This person observed environmental impacts of air pax service versus high speed rail, and brought up jet emissions and airport congestion.

Should be interesting, and it might happen, but I still have doubts. However, a few years after the Chunnel opened, TML had a significant chunk of the pax between London and Paris...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6961 times:
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Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 2):
One of my research articles says that the EU is pretty much investing money into upgrading the rail network to have high speed regional rail essentially complement air service.

But. What is the main point? Is it complementing or competing? What does your research say is more conveniento for the travelling public?



MGGS
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days ago) and read 6925 times:

Richard Quest did a thing on CNN awhile back about the effect of high-speed travel on aviation in Europe. It came down to a number: 4 hours. If the trip can be done within 4 hours on a train, the train wins out. If it takes longer than 4 hrs by train, the plane wins out. He did take the train hotel from Paris to Barcelona and said good things about that.

Here is a segment reposted on Youtube:
Train vs Plane

I can't find the full thing but it was good.

Richard Quest on CNN



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6859 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
Richard Quest did a thing on CNN awhile back about the effect of high-speed travel on aviation in Europe. It came down to a number: 4 hours. If the trip can be done within 4 hours on a train, the train wins out. If it takes longer than 4 hrs by train, the plane wins out. He did take the train hotel from Paris to Barcelona and said good things about that.

I'd agree with that...
Quite simply a 1h30m flight ends up being about 4 hours by the time you do checkin, security, boarding, taxiing, flight, taxiing, deboarding and collect your bags (customs in some places too). With the train you just turn up get onboard with your bag and get straight off at the other end simple as (chunnel has customs also).
High speed trains use considerably less energy than shorthaul flights and can use clean energy (ie they run on electricity which can be generated by windfarms, solar, hydro etc).



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4693 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6857 times:

LH has recently stopped all flying between CGN and FRA and is instead codesharing on the high-speed German Rail services between QKL, CGN and FRA.


Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineSiege2L From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

As far as the statement regarding a 1h30min flight duration ending in a total trip time of 4 hours is not applicable to most situations.

For example, priority access security lines ( LAX, ATL, etc... ), dedicated First Class Terminals ( LH @ FRA, AF @ CDG2, etc... ), and/or reduced minimum check-in times ( London City :10min latest check-in via AF, Washington,DC/National :15min via DL Shuttle, etc ) can drastically change the situation.

Most pax travelling on business between ORY - NCE with a same-day return or overnight, need not check-in baggage. Hotels provide toiletries for the overnight pax. Pax departing in the morning and returning at night on the same day do not have the need to check-in luggage.

Taxi times are generally reduced at ORY and in some cases, at CDG and DCA.

Fast-track security and customs control generally do not take a large block of time.

Keep in mind 1h30min flight durations are listed by airlines to reduce delayed arrivals to improve on-time performance status. These flights are generally :55mins - :75mins with some schedules adjusted during peak travel.

This was not posted to attack any previous statements, however, this was intended to offer the COMPLETE picture as such statements can be misleading to the less-informed or less-travelled flyer.

 Smile



Flying higher than over your dreams...
User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 762 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6789 times:



Quoting AR385 (Reply 3):
What is the main point? Is it complementing or competing?

Here in Spain it's competing as no High Speed Train reach any airport.
Not that long ago, we only had one HST route being Madrid-Seville and that has prevented everyone but Iberia to fly that route.
Now Málaga is getting HST and I also expect no more AGP-MAD except for IB who has a large network to feed. P2P carriers such as Vueling won't be able to compete in price, schedule or overall time. Same will happen when BCN gets its HST service in early '08

When airports receive HST service we can start talking about complementing, until thenm HST is just taking away O&D passengers from the air.


User currently offlineTGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 874 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6768 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 5):
Quite simply a 1h30m flight ends up being about 4 hours by the time you do checkin, security, boarding, taxiing, flight, taxiing, deboarding and collect your bags (customs in some places too). With the train you just turn up get onboard with your bag and get straight off at the other end simple as (chunnel has customs also).

Exact.

At the European level, these are the values commonly accepted (at least what we consider when making traffic forecast studies for high speed railway lines):

Train running time (from station to station):
2 hours - Rail Share 85 % - Air Share 15 %
3 hours - Rail Share 50 % - Air Share 50 %
4 hours - Rail Share 30 % - Air Share 70 %

The location of the stations versus the city center has also an influence. If good (example Paris and Marseille) the rail share will rise (Paris to Marseille is 65% for the rail share, with a 3 hours-3hours 15 running time).

An advantage of train is that the trip can be used for working, as you are seated in the train most of the time. While in the plane, when you have eliminated all time lost in queuing, safety control, boarding, take-off, landing, etc... you don't have much time (nor space !) to work.

[Edited 2007-11-30 01:38:31]


Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6750 times:
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With all the information posted above. What would be the result in the USA of TGV trains? In the long run, would they introduce a new competitive factor for airlines? Or is geography a big constraint for that?


MGGS
User currently offlineZentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days ago) and read 6726 times:

What countries in Europe really need to go along with their train travel is a "takkyubin" service like Japan. For about 10 euros per piece, in Japan I can take my fully loaded 30 kg suitcases to the nearest convenience store and have it delivered to my destination the next day.

Actually, I also this service just to send my luggage to and from the airport. It's really convenient.


User currently offlineScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6648 times:



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 5):
Quite simply a 1h30m flight ends up being about 4 hours by the time you do checkin, security, boarding, taxiing, flight, taxiing, deboarding and collect your bags (customs in some places too).

Don't forget the part about actually GETTING to the airport. Eurostar departs paris from Gare du Nord in central paris, right on the metro and drops you off in central london. No need to pay 10 euro or whatever it is and an hour of your time just to get to and from the airport to the city.


User currently offlineLHBSL From Switzerland, joined Mar 2007, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6639 times:



Quoting Siege2L (Reply 1):
I cannot state fact or opinion regarding the services via easyJet, for example.

Easy stopped their BSL-CDG flight with the opening of the new TGV line Basel-Strasbourg-Paris...

Regards


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3381 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6599 times:



Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
With all the information posted above. What would be the result in the USA of TGV trains? In the long run, would they introduce a new competitive factor for airlines? Or is geography a big constraint for that?

I would guess that the US is so much bigger than European countries that flying is going to be a winner more often although with the size of the gaps between towns it'll be easier to find a space to put a HSR line than in the UK!


User currently offlineCtrl_alt_del From Ireland, joined Feb 2001, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6563 times:

From the 9th of December 2007 the TGV will run Munich-Paris daily, a journey of 6hrs 15mins with
and offer of 39 Euro (not clear if it's return or single). This will be an extremely attractive option
considering how long it takes from central Munich to the airport and from CDG to central Paris. In
this case there is not much difference in time needed. Indeed, it is probably much easier to get
work done on the TGV than if you have the constant switching of transport modes when flying.


User currently offlineOryx From Germany, joined Nov 2005, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6526 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 14):

This argument is only valid for trans-continental flights. High speed trains for the US are more aimed at high-density short connections like Washington and Baltimore. Again the four hour rule applies.

GOOGLE Maps tells me that it can take up to 90 minutes by car on this route. The distance of 40 miles should be less than 30 minutes by high-speed rail.

[Edited 2007-11-30 08:32:16]

[Edited 2007-11-30 08:32:47]

User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5401 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6506 times:



Quoting Siege2L (Reply 7):
As far as the statement regarding a 1h30min flight duration ending in a total trip time of 4 hours is not applicable to most situations.

Absolutely it is ... sometimes more. The average airline passenger does not arrive at the airport 15 minutes before his/her flight, expecting to get through security in 5 minutes... even if it CAN be done. Even regular FFs (and I fly with 'em every week), get to the airport probably one hour before departure time (some 90 mins)... remember, FF's are always at the gate at first boarding call ... and so are leisure pax because they don't know better. Add travel time to the airport (usually worse than to a rail station) .. and possibly bag check/pickup at either end, and on AVERAGE, it's easily a 3hr or more trip ... I usually assume 4hrs minimum time to fly anywhere. There is much time 'wasted' in the premium lounges for the FF's ... they're not all arriving just in time.

The other big factor with airlines/airports is the unexpected! The chance of long lines at security one week, or a flight delayed by one hour, are not uncommon... and far more common than rail problems IMO.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6434 times:



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 5):
Quite simply a 1h30m flight ends up being about 4 hours by the time you do checkin, security, boarding, taxiing, flight, taxiing, deboarding and collect your bags (customs in some places too).

Yes.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 5):
With the train you just turn up get onboard with your bag and get straight off at the other end simple as (chunnel has customs also).

Well, perhaps not quite. At least not unless you live at one station and are visiting the other.

To mark the opening of the St Pancras (London) to Gare du Nord (Paris) high speed line the Telegraph newspaper sent one reporter on the train in a race with another reporter travelling by air. They started the race in central London (by Big Ben) and finished it in central Paris (in the Parc du Champ de Mars by the Eiffel Tower).

The flight by BA via LHR took 4 hrs 40 mins.

The train via the Chunnel took 4 hrs 10 minutes.

The total elapsed time between leaving Big Ben and arriving at St Pancras was 15 minutes. This compares to the rather slow 40 minutes it took to get from Big Ben to Paddington station. But this difference was not critical. It simply means that the train traveller having started the journey in plenty of time arrived at St Pancras earlier than expected but caught the planned train. The air traveller also caught the planned flight but with not so much time to spare as expected.

I am not trying to suggest that the plane traveller could have beaten the train traveller. What I am trying to illustrate is that if speed is all important then where you start your journey is totally critical. If your journey time from your starting point to Paddington Station is quicker than your journey time to St Pancras Station then flying could save you a few minutes. But in the end the advantage of the train over the plane or the plane over the train is going to be so small that neither can really claim to offer a significant time advantage. Effectively in this case the quickest route is determined by where you start and finish your journey. But even then the time saved will not make a great difference.

However the train does win if other issues are considered.

What are these issues? Well, cost. Compare the single train ticket price of £56 with the plane ticket price of £96. (Of course the train fare is effectively subsidised as the cost of laying the track and digging the tunnel will never be recovered while the only subsidised part of the plane journey were the train journeys to and from the airports. But that is a concern of the tax payer not the passenger.) And if you are environmentally conscious then compare your train carbon emission footprint of .005 tonnes with your plane carbon emission footprint of 0.055 tonnes (both for a single journey).

.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6418 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 18):
I am not trying to suggest that the plane traveller could have beaten the train traveller. What I am trying to illustrate is that if speed is all important then where you start your journey is totally critical. If your journey time from your starting point to Paddington Station is quicker than your journey time to St Pancras Station then flying could save you a few minutes. But in the end the advantage of the train over the plane or the plane over the train is going to be so small that neither can really claim to offer a significant time advantage. Effectively in this case the quickest route is determined by where you start and finish your journey. But even then the time saved will not make a great difference.

Very true, as very few people live in Central London near the Eurostar station, whereas more people live nearer an airport (bearing in mind the 5 airports around London).

And, at the other end, are you going to the centre of Paris, in which case Eurostar is likely to be faster, or to a business away from the centre, which may be nearer CDG or ORY?

Quoting TGV (Reply 9):
n advantage of train is that the trip can be used for working, as you are seated in the train most of the time. While in the plane, when you have eliminated all time lost in queuing, safety control, boarding, take-off, landing, etc... you don't have much time (nor space !) to work.

London's airports (apart from LCY) are not pleasant places at the moment, there is a high aggro factor (with the very high current levels of security) involved in short flights here...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9182 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6383 times:



Quoting AR385 (Reply 3):
Is it complementing or competing? What does your research say is more conveniento for the travelling public?

It's supposed to be complementing for the shorter regional distances. Now it takes about 3 hours to go from downtown London to downtown Paris, considerably shorter than if you were to take a plane from LHR to CDG or Orly. By the time you check in, clear security, and then how about those delays at LHR?? A 4 or 5 hour journey between Paris and London would be a good day I would think... I guess since I have never even been to Europe yet, it's really not my place to say anything, but this is a very interesting topic, and I am very interested in doing research on it...

Now for longer trips like London to Athens, Warsaw or Moscow, of course flying would be the better option...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3937 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6381 times:
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Quoting VV701 (Reply 18):
What I am trying to illustrate is that if speed is all important then where you start your journey is totally critical.

This is an excellent point that has often been overlooked. The opening of St Pancreas actually illustrates it very well. Many Eurostar customers begin their journey from Canary Wharf, from whence Waterloo was far more convenient, to a point that, for these customers, City and Heathrow are more competitive now than before.

At least, they have a choice, however. My employer's offices in Brussels are just a few minutes away from the airport, so a trip originating at that office to our Paris offices could be done faster by air than by train, at least at certain times of the day, but there simply aren't any flights between BRU and CDG (except for one morning flight to connect with SN's African services). On the other hand, I often stay in downtown Brussels across the street from a train station with high speed service to Paris, and given the traffic in Brussels during rush hour, there's no way a high speed train within walking distance of my hotel will be beaten by a plane ride requiring a long trip to the airport...

Quoting Siege2L (Reply 1):
This does not apply to Thalys/Air France agreement between CDG and Brussels-Midi station

Thalys no longer operates between CDG and Brussels. The service is provided by regular SNCF high speed trains, of which one car is subcontracted by AF to carry connecting passengers.

In 2010, passenger rail transport will be fully liberalized in Europe, with Deutsche Bahn already planning to send its trains from Germany to London and Virgin Railways from London to continental Europe. If, in conjunction with this liberalization, rail infrastructure could be further improved, I think we could see a very competitive, quality product that would give the airlines a run for their money.

Some of the improvements I think of include a high speed connection from LHR to the Eurostar lines terminating both at Paris Nord and Brussels Midi. BA, VS and BD could set up check-in desks at both train stations and it would further reduce the need/appeal of flights between LHR on the one hand, and BRU and CDG on the other. BRU also needs a connection to the high speed train service, and AMS needs its high speed link to be completed, something that is apparently scheduled to be done in 2009 (and I've sworn never again to get to AMS by high speed train until it's done, too many bad experiences...). CDG is ready, you can get a high speed train to most large cities in France already, the only missing link is a better integration between Air France's and SNCF's reservation systems so passengers can get their SNCF tickets when they check in with Air France, and vice versa.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6338 times:



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 5):
High speed trains use considerably less energy than shorthaul flights and can use clean energy (ie they run on electricity which can be generated by windfarms, solar, hydro etc).

They can also use dirty energy (ie they run on diesel, or on electricity which is generated by coal or natural gas burning plants, nuclear plants whose waste is much much worse than CO2). And not every train is full (or near full). A 500 seat train only 1/4 full isn't as efficient as a 150 seat plane with 125 passengers.

HST in Europe are a real success on short-haul (won't dispute the 4 hours mentioned above) but don't forget some realities.

Longhaul to shorthaul connections are much superior plane-to-plane, than plane-to-train. I would imagine that the majority of air passengers LHR-CDG are not point-to-point but connecting via BA/AF hubs. And a plane-to-train connection is as inconvenient as transferring from a network to a low-cost airline. While AF may have given up on CDG-BRU, SN hasn't - but likely for connecting passengers rather than true O&D.

Not everybody wants to travel city centre to city centre (or airport to airport, for that matter). i.e. a passenger who lives in the suburbs would have to travel to city centre to catch the train, when an airport could be closer. Depending on the passenger's origin (home & office) and destination (hotel & office) one of the options is going to be better than the other - and it isn't always going to be the train.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9182 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6336 times:



Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 21):
In 2010, passenger rail transport will be fully liberalized in Europe, with Deutsche Bahn already planning to send its trains from Germany to London and Virgin Railways from London to continental Europe. If, in conjunction with this liberalization, rail infrastructure could be further improved, I think we could see a very competitive, quality product that would give the airlines a run for their money.

Some of the improvements I think of include a high speed connection from LHR to the Eurostar lines terminating both at Paris Nord and Brussels Midi. BA, VS and BD could set up check-in desks at both train stations and it would further reduce the need/appeal of flights between LHR on the one hand, and BRU and CDG on the other. BRU also needs a connection to the high speed train service, and AMS needs its high speed link to be completed, something that is apparently scheduled to be done in 2009 (and I've sworn never again to get to AMS by high speed train until it's done, too many bad experiences...). CDG is ready, you can get a high speed train to most large cities in France already, the only missing link is a better integration between Air France's and SNCF's reservation systems so passengers can get their SNCF tickets when they check in with Air France, and vice versa.

I think this is pretty much what my research is suggesting, that high speed rail may get competitive with the airline industry, but the airlines could codeshare with HSR on shorter distances, especially if passengers are going to connect in either AMS, CDG, FRA, LHR or the like to get to ex-Europe or other international destinations. It would be a win-win-win-win situation... The pax win, the airlines and railroads make money (assuming proper financing approaches are used), and the environment doesn't suffer as much.

With Germany going to send their trains to LHR, that would mean even more traffic going through the Chunnel, which already handles more than 4 million riders annually.

I wish we had somethink like that here in the states, although I think HSR would be more viable in places east of the Mississippi river due to continuous settlement pretty much. Cities are much closer in proximity to one another; large urbanized areas lie within a few hundred miles or less of one another. You go west of the Mississippi, and you have one or two major metropolitan areas, then several hundred miles before you come to any somewhat major civilization. Then you get to the west coast, where there is pretty much a linear spatial pattern of civilization along the immediate coast and in some interior areas of California and the Pacific Coast...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6308 times:



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 23):
I think this is pretty much what my research is suggesting, that high speed rail may get competitive with the airline industry

Is high speed rail really 'competitive' or are you excluding the very high infrastructure costs - that is the track, land and - in the case of the Chunnel - the excavation costs? As I see it ticket prices are competitive but with the extraordinary high infrastructure subsidies that price competitiveness is down to the tax payer's subsidy.


25 Viscount724 : I disagree. Plane-to-train connections at many airports in Europe that have railway stations under or immediately adjacent to the airport terminal ca
26 Post contains images Zkpilot : I was refering to 1h30 flight times (ie time in the air) but I can see how you could mistake that for blocks time. At LAX as you have used in an exam
27 LTBEWR : There can be several advantages and one disadvantage for some for high speed trains vs. air travel. Where the journey is to start or end - It works be
28 Glacote : Re integration of AF and SNCF - it is funny enough that AA is actually code-sharing the whole TGV network. Little known but makes a big difference. I
29 FURUREFA : I concur; last Sunday it took me more time to get from St. Pancras to my dad's house in Holland Park, Kensington then it would have to go to Heathrow
30 Steeler83 : The papers I have been reading really didn't observe any bit of the financing part of these projects. It was mostly about the ethics (environmental i
31 Post contains links ANother : IATA has an interesting analysis here
32 Voodoo : Problem with relying on this is that it will only take one major security incident on a train...especially a train going to/from the UK, for station
33 KEno : Reims-Champagne which used to have Ryanair services has its fate sealed for good since the opening of TGV Est. It's now possible to take a nonstop TGV
34 JGPH1A : The systems are integrated already, at least for Reservations - you can book SNCF rail in Amadeus, which is the system used by AF. What there isn't t
35 ZRH : I think for a TGV/ICE travelling time under 4 hours the train has advantages. You leave/arrive in the city-center, you don't have check-in times, you
36 Post contains images Zkpilot : You mean like the London train bombings or the Madrid train bombings? Increased checks for sure but nothing that inconvienences travellers like at ai
37 ANother : Do you mean it is wrong, simply because of the source? Once you have read it lets have a debate on the facts.
38 Davehammer : My girlfriend and I went on a trip round Europe last year using both rail and air to go on the following route. LTN to CIA on FR. Rome to Milan on Ita
39 Indy : Provided TGV works like DB in Germany it should be much easier for shorter routes. You just walk up and buy your ticket and get on the train. You don'
40 Group51 : I carried out a comparison of air and train times for travel between London and Manchester city centre for my work. This was before the Pendolino tra
41 Post contains images Steeler83 : That's my take on it as well. I actually just booked Lancaster-Pittsburgh-Lancaster on AMtrak for Christmas (By all means not high-speed, but the seg
42 VV701 : Not everyone starts their journey at Manchester Picadilly and ends it at London Euston. Most people neither start or end their journey at a main line
43 Zkpilot : No, I'm sure its right if you look at it from a certain point of view and use certain data and statistics... thats the wonderful thing about statisti
44 Lijnden : Pro's: 1) Travelling by train is far less stressful than travelling by air. 2) Time factor on short hauls is often also in favour of the rail system.
45 PanHAM : That gives you more flexibility, indeed, but you also never know if you get there in the estimated time. Simple calculation, I have to go to AMS - RA
46 AR385 : Which way should a hypothethetical medium size third world country with new found riches go then? Should it start building airport infrastructure like
47 PHKLM : This depends on a lot of variables. First of all, terrain. Think of the CGH-SDU route in Brazil. This is an excellent route to cover by HST, if it no
48 Worldrider : Sure not return! HST is not that cheap, an LCC is often cheaper..
49 PHKLM : Strange. I cannot find this train on the DB website. AFAIK there will be a service running from Stuttgart to Paris directly and that will take only 3
50 PanHAM : That is so. The reason is the "Geislinger Steige" where the trains have to climg the Swabian Mountains between STR and Ulm. There are plans to level
51 PHKLM : But they will do so for the BAB8, that is correct right? Any chance they can build a double tunnel with one tube for the Autobahn and the other for t
52 Indy : I would think regional high speed rail is also better for the business traveler over air and auto. First you can go any time you want. There won't be
53 PanHAM : Wel, the BAB8 serves a far greater number of people and truckloads. There are plans for a rail tunnel as well, but that will take some time to be rea
54 Group51 : Indeed, and many people don't live around LHR or MAN. But you are not going to suggest that it is easier for most people in the Manchester or London
55 StarGoldLHR : What are you mad ? I live in Canary Wharf.. LHR is the worst pain in the neck for me. As from my flat in Island Gardens... it's 45 min to St Pancras.
56 YULMRS : Lets check out some of the impacts of the French TGV on air traffic : LGV sud-est, Rhone-Alpes, Mediterranee : ORY : LYS : AF recently announced that
57 Bond007 : So you're really leaving your flat 50 minutes before scheduled departure time for the flight?? Hey, you may well be, but I'd say that's hardly repres
58 Post contains images Leskova : There's something similar that's been on offer for years now in Germany - called "Kuriergepäck". You buy the "ticket" for your baggage, it gets pick
59 BlueFlyer : And hence I will not argue with you, and instead I will conclude that the nightmarish traffic I experienced twice (out of two attempts) going from my
60 Post contains images Bond007 : This is THE key factor ... right there We're all comparing 4hr flight trips, with 4hr train trips, but how much of that time is spent sitting/relaxin
61 R2rho : But they don't. Except for France (nuclear), most electricity in Europe comes from coal or gas power plants. I wonder if the energy sources are taken
62 Steeler83 : CO and Amtrak actually have a codeshare at EWR, as that is A) an Amtrak station stop right smack in the middle of the N.E.C. and B) is a major CO hub
63 Gregarious119 : I tell ya what, there's a ton of potential for the Ohio Hub if they can link the regions airports, especially through central Ohio, in addition to th
64 Post contains images Steeler83 : CMH is another airport that will be served by the Ohio Hub project actually. I think it will be part of the 3-Cs corridor (CLE-CMH-Cincinnati) I don'
65 Post contains links R2rho : Sorry to disappoint you: in Germany, coal is king. http://www.eoearth.org/article/Energy_profile_of_Germany
66 Post contains images Brendows : The electric railroad lines in Norway gets the power purely from hydroelectric power plants
67 PanHAM : Lucky Norway. You have the topographic profile for that eehh, no, the morons who believe that windmills and other alternate energy can provide the po
68 Post contains links David_itl : Well if the Conservatives win power and take up John Selwyn Gummer's proposal, MAN-LHR will not exist! See this article in tonight's Manchester Eveni
69 Viscount724 : Also Switzerland, where virtually all trains use electric power and the main Swiss Federal Railway (SBB/CFF/FFS in German/French/Italian) operates it
70 Steeler83 : " target=_blank>http://www.eoearth.org/article/Energ...rmany That part is disapppointing, but the article did say that they are becomming a world lea
71 YULMRS : Don't forget one this, all europen electric networks are interconnected, it means that some italian electricity will be used on german network as som
72 Post contains images Steeler83 : You have a strong point there. No fossil fuel will be "green." It will always be black or dark brown -- the same color as smog... coincidence??? Oh y
73 JJJ : AVE (Spanish TGV) had to introduce airline-like pricing (discounts for early purchase, etc.) as it was losing competitivity with the planes on the MAD
74 Post contains links Trinxat : They have built a "loop bypass" to the main line that gets close to the airport (El Prat village), and they intend to make it an intermodal station w
75 Post contains links R2rho : You're forgetting Spain there. Ranks number two in installed capacity. Denmark third, and as you correctly stated, Germany first. However, the share
76 StarGoldLHR : To be honest.. if you turn up 1 hour before you have a good chance of making an earlier flight at LCY. Actually i'm going to BRU again in 2 weeks, no
77 RayChuang : After reading all the messages on this thread, I believe so far the biggest impact of high-speed rail on air travel is the cross-Channel travel routes
78 Glacote : It's way beyond that. Even a _kerozen_ train would be way, way greener than an airplane. You don't have to climb. That's a huge amount of lost energy
79 Post contains images TGV : Why should trains be cheap, if there are customers ready to pay for expensive tickets? Business is not selling cheap, it is selling cheaper than the
80 Post contains images Steeler83 : Sorry, I didn't even realize Spain had that much installed capacity, or I simply just forgot True, and how many do these trains usually accomodate, 2
81 Glacote : 50 full fare second class PAX in a duplex from Paris to Lyon pay for its run. The 450 (or 950) others are pure profit. Less so on Marseille since the
82 R2rho : Very well summarized, couldn't have put it better myself. My theory is that, having been state monopolies for such a long time (well, they still are)
83 Post contains links Gregarious119 : http://www.dot.state.oh.us/ohiorail/Ohio%20Hub/Website/ordc/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Hub I'm really amazed when I look at Amtrak'
84 PanHAM : That is running the trains with a profit. If they would hgave to account the infrastructure, they would run at a great loss. The contribution from co
85 Post contains links David_itl : VLM have done a comparison for BRU and ANR. Check out their website and a press release.
86 Bennett123 : Is there an Underground station at LCY now?
87 Post contains images Oryx : Nope, not Kerosene but flight miles which I would acount for as the net output of aircraft.
88 Wolflair : It may not be the case. I was surprised when I travelled from Madrid to Zaragoza on the AVE. My bags were scanned before I jumped into the platform.
89 TGV : The problem of SNCF now is that we have not enough high speed rolling stock to cover the needs: even though Alstom is building around 2 Duplex trains
90 Post contains images R2rho : Actually, it was Glacote: But no worries
91 Sorayafaradiba : I have just used the PAR-FRA ice train on the weekend. you cannot compare it to LON-PAR but the 3 hrs and 50 minutes are a lot of progress - it used t
92 EmiratesUK : I've just come back from Paris by Eurostar and I must say I was wowed by how quick and easy it was... Both french & U.K immigration was done prior to
93 Post contains images Steeler83 : Yes it will be, but it will not link airports like PIT or CVG though. It would be nice if the Pittsburgh - Carnegie - Newark - Columbus alighnment ac
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