Imberry From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 18 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3915 times:
I have flown on a NW "fifth freedom" flight from NRT to PEK - what other fifth freedom flights besides UA and NW out of NRT do US carriers fly? I think there may be some in Latin America - any in Europe?
Drerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4906 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3836 times:
Imberry From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 18 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3816 times:
I assume cabotage laws prevent AA and CO from carrying local pax from GRU to GIG, do any countries allow such revenue flights (i.e. get on board British Airways in Miami and fly to New York)?
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31118 posts, RR: 73 Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3802 times:
Quoting Imberry (Reply 5): I assume cabotage laws prevent AA and CO from carrying local pax from GRU to GIG, do any countries allow such revenue flights (i.e. get on board British Airways in Miami and fly to New York)?
Yes, certain countries do. The Bahamas allows cabatoge, for example. A few years ago, Australia granted temporary cabatoge to UAL on SYD-MEL following the collapse of Ansett.
PilotNTrng From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 897 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3805 times:
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 39 Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3774 times:
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 7): what the heck is a fifth freedom flight?
Fifth freedom allows an airline from country A to have a flight from A to country C that stops in country B and has rights to pick up traffic from country B and take to C, and on the return trip take traffic from C back to B, all the while carrying traffic going between A and C.
In other words fifth freedom gives access to the market for traffic between country B and C to an airline from A, as long as the flight originates or returns to A.
[Edited 2007-11-30 14:15:38]
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
Analog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3773 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4): No. That would be 7th freedom and neither AA nor CO can carry local traffic on that route.
Even as part of a larger trip? Fly from the US to GIG, stay a day, fly to GRU, stay a day, fly back to the US.
PilotNTrng From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 897 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3709 times:
BlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3126 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3694 times:
UA has fifth-freedom rights between LHR and Berlin (any airport), FRA, HAM and MUC.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21495 posts, RR: 24 Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3677 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4): Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 3):
Doesn't CO have 5th freedom between GRU and GIG?
No. That would be 7th freedom and neither AA nor CO can carry local traffic on that route.
No, that would be 8th freedom (cabotage) since GRU-GIG is domestic. 8th freedom is the unofficial term for cabotage as a continuation of an international flight. If it was stand-alone cabotage where aircraft were permitted to be based in the country and operate domestic services without any connection to their home country, the equivalent term is 9th freedom. Only the first 5 Freedoms are officially defined as part of the Chicago Convention that established the framework for international air services after WWII. The terms 6th/7th/8th/9th freedom have been used unofficially. Definition of these terms here: http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/freedoms_air.htm
Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 11): Were the domestic West German flights operated by PanAm, BA and Air France to and from Berlin considered 7th freedom?
That was an unusual situation but if such services were to be operated today it would be considered 9th freedom (stand-alone cabotage) although I don't think West Berlin was officially part of West Germany at the time. It had a special status but it was still basically cabotage.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6): A few years ago, Australia granted temporary cabatoge to UAL on SYD-MEL following the collapse of Ansett.
Australian and New Zealand carriers have cabotage rights in each other's country under the single market agreement between the two countries which is how QF is able to operate domestic flights in New Zealand. New Zealand-based carriers could do the same in Australia if they wanted to.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31118 posts, RR: 73 Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3628 times:
Quoting Analog (Reply 9): Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
No. That would be 7th freedom and neither AA nor CO can carry local traffic on that route.
Even as part of a larger trip? Fly from the US to GIG, stay a day, fly to GRU, stay a day, fly back to the US.
I don't know how the rules work in Brazil for that. In the U.S., you can do that (i.e. take SYD-LAX on QF, stay for a day or a two; take LAX-JFK on QF; must be on the same itinerary).
DavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1527 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3564 times:
Various US carriers have had fifth freedom flights between Australia and NZ over the years, but non currently exercise those rights. PA was the first, between AKL and SYD (also possibly MEL?), CO operated AKL-SYD/MEL/BNE, and UA also operated AKL-SYD/MEL. AA operated to both Australia and NZ for a time, but I'm not sure whether they operated between the two.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
RP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 829 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3527 times:
Don't forget that with the current US-Canada bilateral, any US carrier has the rights to fly from a US city to a Canadian city, and then on to a 3rd country, with full traffic rights from Canada to that 3rd country. They would, however, also have to have the rights to fly from the US to that 3rd country. So far it doesnt appear that any US carrier has any immediate plans to exercise those rights, but it might be interesting to see what happens in the future.
GARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1477 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3482 times:
Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 18): Various US carriers have had fifth freedom flights between Australia and NZ over the years, but non currently exercise those rights
Doesnt Emirates, SQ, Lan Chile all have rights between NZ and Australiaa currently? I thought Emirates
was flying BNE-AKL.
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3139 posts, RR: 14 Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3441 times:
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8590 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3362 times:
DL has 5th from DKR(which is why JNB,CPT, and whats the other new city?) and from FRA(which they got from PA)
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
I once flew BKK-TPE-SFO on United, although I don't think they run this route any more.
*****
Back in the 1970's Pan flight #1 and 2 went from SFO to JFK (around the world) and stopped in a gazillion cities along the way, all of which would be 5th freedom flights I believe.
25 PanHAM: That's not a local traffic (Cabotage or 8th freedom) but a "stop-over privilege". No, that would be 8th freedom. 7th freedom is the carriage between
26 DavidByrne: Yes, Emirates flies AKL-BNE, AKL-SYD, CHC-SYD and AKL-MEL. Other airlines currently exercising 5th freedoms between NZ and Australia include LA (AKL-
27 WorldTraveler: DL's entire FRA hub was built on 5th freedom rights but it required competing against LH and using expensive aircraft to operate relative to oher carr
28 VV701: UA flew their last European based 722 - the aircraft used to operate their European 5th services - back to the USA in 1994, but Star Alliance was not
29 AlexEU: And Nairobi. Did they have the 5th freedom right between JNB and Ilha Do Sal (when they flew)?
30 Viscount724: Assume you are referring to SA. Delta has never served Ilha do Sal.
31 Iluv747400: Continental has 5th freedom on: MNL-ROR-YAP (Philippines, Palau & FSM) MAJ-KSA-PNP-TKK (Marshall Islands to three FSM destinations)
32 PanHAM: did I say anywhere that they replacd their European shorthauls because of Alliances? My sentence was present tense.
33 AmtrakGuy: Regarding 5th Freedom from NRT to GUM, how did that happened? Because I think flying from DTW or MSP to GUM via NRT is "out of way" route -- does NWA
34 DLD9S: AA does EZE-MVD seasonally. It is a very short flight on an often fairly empty 767.
35 Transpac787: NRT-GUM and NRT-SPN are 6th freedom routes out of NRT, as the flights to SPN and GUM from all NRT, KIX, and NGO, have no continuing flight numbers to
36 AlexEU: What about Melbourne-Auckland-LA ? Or something similar? Could you book AU-NZ route? Can you book a flight on LHR-LAX with NZ? What about other kangor
38 Viscount724: Yes NZ has had 5th freedom rights LHR-LAX for decades, just like several other foreign carriers long had 5th freedom rights on certain US-UK routes (
39 Gemuser: Pan Am had full fifth freedom rights from all Pacific Islands & NZ into Oz as well as full fifth freedom from Oz to Asia. Not sure of the exact citie
40 MasseyBrown: Thinking back to R-T-W services by BA (BOAC), they flew from Pacific points to SFO to JFK-LHR. My recollection is that they could carry stopover traff
41 Gemuser: During the 1960s & 1970 they operated to both LAX & SFO from the Pacific. If memory serves me correctly for at least part of the time LAX-JFK-LHR, bu
42 Mariner: I flew it in 1968, and the routing was AKL-NAN-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR. The plane had been reasonably full to HNL, but HNL-SFO was capacity. There was a sche
43 MasseyBrown: Good memory. Did they have stopover rights between US points - provided the ultimate destination was LHR? Or AKL in the other direction?
44 Gemuser: Did you change aircraft in NAN? Was it a B704 or SVC10? A bit later than that in the early 1970s you got a B704 AKL-NAN that had come from LHR via SY
45 Mariner: Yes. It was a 707 to NAN and then a different 707 NAN-HNL-SFO (I think that aircraft had come from SYD). But I don't know what the AKL-NAN aircraft d
46 DavidByrne: The BA aircraft's schedule was, if I recall correctly, something like arriving in AKL from SYD and LHR in the afternoon on Mon/Fri, then AKL 2130-002
48 AlexEU: Swiss flies to SIN via BKK. Do they have 5th freedom for BKK-SIN. That could be weird because there are a lot of flights between SIN and BKK. I think
49 Coal: Why would it be weird? AFAIK TG, SQ, PG, and JQ fly the route. LX do indeed have fifth freedom rights. I've flown them twice for a bargain, even chea
50 SpeedyGonzales: I flew SVO-BKK-SIN and back on Aeroflot in 2001 and there were local passengers on BKK-SIN both ways.
51 PanHAM: It is BKK-KUL. MNL is served via CAN without traffic rights CAN-MNL
52 Thaiaggie: Thailand has open sky policy so most airlines, if not all, have 5th freedom right beyond Thailand.
53 Viscount724: If memory correct, BA was using the 707 on the North Pacific route and the Super VC-10 on the South Pacific route when they dropped those routes in t
54 AlexEU: If USA had cabotage right, e.g. GRU-GIG-JFK, would it mean that pax originating from GRU going to JFK, would have to go out of plane in GIG to get pas
55 Greenair727: Is there a comprehensive list somewhere (perhaps by USDOT?) that shows what rights (fifth, third, sixth, etc.) the US has with other countries? tx.
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