Imberry From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 18 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3915 times:
I have flown on a NW "fifth freedom" flight from NRT to PEK - what other fifth freedom flights besides UA and NW out of NRT do US carriers fly? I think there may be some in Latin America - any in Europe?
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31118 posts, RR: 73 Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3802 times:
Quoting Imberry (Reply 5): I assume cabotage laws prevent AA and CO from carrying local pax from GRU to GIG, do any countries allow such revenue flights (i.e. get on board British Airways in Miami and fly to New York)?
Yes, certain countries do. The Bahamas allows cabatoge, for example. A few years ago, Australia granted temporary cabatoge to UAL on SYD-MEL following the collapse of Ansett.
Fifth freedom allows an airline from country A to have a flight from A to country C that stops in country B and has rights to pick up traffic from country B and take to C, and on the return trip take traffic from C back to B, all the while carrying traffic going between A and C.
In other words fifth freedom gives access to the market for traffic between country B and C to an airline from A, as long as the flight originates or returns to A.
[Edited 2007-11-30 14:15:38]
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21495 posts, RR: 24 Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3677 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4): Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 3):
Doesn't CO have 5th freedom between GRU and GIG?
No. That would be 7th freedom and neither AA nor CO can carry local traffic on that route.
No, that would be 8th freedom (cabotage) since GRU-GIG is domestic. 8th freedom is the unofficial term for cabotage as a continuation of an international flight. If it was stand-alone cabotage where aircraft were permitted to be based in the country and operate domestic services without any connection to their home country, the equivalent term is 9th freedom. Only the first 5 Freedoms are officially defined as part of the Chicago Convention that established the framework for international air services after WWII. The terms 6th/7th/8th/9th freedom have been used unofficially. Definition of these terms here: http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/freedoms_air.htm
Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 11): Were the domestic West German flights operated by PanAm, BA and Air France to and from Berlin considered 7th freedom?
That was an unusual situation but if such services were to be operated today it would be considered 9th freedom (stand-alone cabotage) although I don't think West Berlin was officially part of West Germany at the time. It had a special status but it was still basically cabotage.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6): A few years ago, Australia granted temporary cabatoge to UAL on SYD-MEL following the collapse of Ansett.
Australian and New Zealand carriers have cabotage rights in each other's country under the single market agreement between the two countries which is how QF is able to operate domestic flights in New Zealand. New Zealand-based carriers could do the same in Australia if they wanted to.
DavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1527 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3564 times:
Various US carriers have had fifth freedom flights between Australia and NZ over the years, but non currently exercise those rights. PA was the first, between AKL and SYD (also possibly MEL?), CO operated AKL-SYD/MEL/BNE, and UA also operated AKL-SYD/MEL. AA operated to both Australia and NZ for a time, but I'm not sure whether they operated between the two.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
RP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 829 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3527 times:
Don't forget that with the current US-Canada bilateral, any US carrier has the rights to fly from a US city to a Canadian city, and then on to a 3rd country, with full traffic rights from Canada to that 3rd country. They would, however, also have to have the rights to fly from the US to that 3rd country. So far it doesnt appear that any US carrier has any immediate plans to exercise those rights, but it might be interesting to see what happens in the future.