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Landing Fees... Do Bounces Count?  
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 10557 times:

My Flight Instructor told me that YYZ charges you per bounce for landing fees. Is this true at YYZ or at other airports?
Is this a General Aviation policy since YYZ hates GA so much or does it happen with jets?


Thanks in advance,
AF340 wave 

95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePilotdude09 From Australia, joined May 2005, 1777 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10549 times:

Highly doubt it, how the hell would any major airport count the amount of times an aircraft bounces??
Especially if they have more than runway it would almost be an impossible task............



Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
User currently offlineFreshlove1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10554 times:



Quoting AF340 (Thread starter):
My Flight Instructor told me that YYZ charges you per bounce for landing fees. Is this true at YYZ or at other airports?
Is this a General Aviation policy since YYZ hates GA so much or does it happen with jets?

I believe landing fees are based on the weight of the aircraft. I have never heard of that before about the bounces. I am sure he was just joking.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10551 times:

PLEASE tell me your joking right.....????


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBE77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10543 times:

Ummm - sounds like a teaching aid to get your attention?


Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10544 times:



Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
I am sure he was just joking.

No she actually wasn't! It really surprised me and I didn't really believe her but then I thought that maybe it's true because she is a training ATC there...


AF340 wave 


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10545 times:

That's actually a pretty common joke for a flight instructor to make.
Since you're naive enough to believe that one, can you do me a favor? Go to your hanger and bring me back about one hundred feet of flightline.
 Smile


User currently offlineBE77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10544 times:



Quoting BE77 (Reply 4):
Ummm - sounds like a teaching aid to get your attention?

...otherwise, I owe an awful lot of airports an awful pile of extra money for extra landings over the years...



Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10532 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6):
Go to your hanger and bring me back about one hundred feet of flightline.

Ohhh, that would be hard. There deicing my plane as I speak. 


AF340  

[Edited 2007-12-05 20:23:51]

User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10517 times:



Quoting AF340 (Thread starter):
My Flight Instructor told me that YYZ charges you per bounce for landing fees

I believe there are 6 or 7 airports like this.

At JFK they have cameras positioned along the runway, and some kind of automated imaging system counts the bounces and automatically charges the fee. At some of the other airports, like BTV (Burlington, VT), they actually have pressure sensors on the runway that not only count the bounces, but also weigh the aircraft ... making the landing fee billing process very simple. The systems usually have some preset parameters for what constitues a 'bounce' ... for example, 3ft for a MD80, and 6 inches for a C172 .... obviously.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10488 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6):
Go to your hanger and bring me back about one hundred feet of flightline.

Hint: It's next to the propwash.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26536 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10469 times:



Quoting AF340 (Thread starter):
My Flight Instructor told me that YYZ charges you per bounce for landing fees.

She was having some fun with you

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9):

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10388 times:



Quoting AF340 (Thread starter):
My Flight Instructor told me that YYZ charges you per bounce for landing fees.

Could she maybe have meant bounces as in touch and goes? Like, we are gonna go out and do some bounces today? I know YYZ would hate that even when it was slow.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 10351 times:

If you log the bounces as extra landings they charge you.

Otherwise you're fine.


User currently offlineUncleBuck From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 22 hours ago) and read 10332 times:

On the rare occasion that I'm working a flight and we have a bounce on landing, I always add to my landing announcements, "and as you exit the aircraft this morning/afternoon/evening, please have those dollar bills handy as we have added a $1 surcharge for the second landing."

User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 22 hours ago) and read 10291 times:



Quoting AF340 (Reply 5):
t really surprised me and I didn't really believe her but then I thought that maybe it's true because she is a training ATC there...

It's absolutely true. And watch your airspeed on approach too, because training aircraft are liable for extra Nav Canada charges for airspeed fluctuations of +10 and -5 KIAS. The sequencing of you among the larger commercial traffic can pose difficulties with busy ATC. YYZ (GTAA) will bill a further 0.2x hourly rental rate for each deviation.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9):
The systems usually have some preset parameters for what constitues a 'bounce' ... for example, 3ft for a MD80, and 6 inches for a C172 .... obviously.

Not quite correct. As the system is a German-designed invention, it calibrates the bounces in metric measurement. An MD-80, to use your example would need to rebound a distance greater than 90 cm while that 172 would only be allowed a 15 cm buffer to avoid the surcharge. I am of course, using the ICAO-stipulated bounce rates as used in YVR. There may be imperial allowances in BTV.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineGeorgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 679 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 22 hours ago) and read 10234 times:



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 15):
It's absolutely true. And watch your airspeed on approach too, because training aircraft are liable for extra Nav Canada charges for airspeed fluctuations of +10 and -5 KIAS. The sequencing of you among the larger commercial traffic can pose difficulties with busy ATC. YYZ (GTAA) will bill a further 0.2x hourly rental rate for each deviation.

Only training aircraft?? That doesn't make sense, your think that they would expect trainers to make mistakes where they could charge the airlines for violating those rules.... But then again I guess they have to pay for their free health care somehow!



Al Gore invented global warming.
User currently offlineScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 10146 times:

this thread is full of funny

User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 10084 times:



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 19):
AFAIK the German company sold the product to one of the large US firms ... Lockheed Martin perhaps?

Yes, you're quite correct. They completed the transaction in October.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 19):
Presumably no refunds for a 'greaser' !

Sadly, no. In an ironic twist, many Flight Ops departments are actually advising pilots to deliberately land so as NOT to 'grease it on' as the pressure systems were failing to register such smooth arrivals. This played havoc with the billing of navigation and en route fees as airlines were being charged as if they were still in the air, when in reality they had already completed their flights. YVR for example has a dedicated ATC staffmember to visually verfiy each aircraft's arrival to ensure the 'greasers' don't escape the landing fees the system fails to detect. The added cost of that position is being absorbed by the carriers, hence their eagerness to render that job redundant.
It's demanding some skill back into flying, to find that fine line between a bounce and the greaser. Operators of aircraft with beefier trailing link landing gear are reporting limited success to date.

On a related note, the airports operating the PMS machines are exploring the calibration of the system's sensitivity in relation to the James Brake Index (CRFI here). Icy or contaminated runways tend to affect the impact forces, which was not sufficiently designed in the original systems.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8292 posts, RR: 23
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 10055 times:

You've got alot to learn about the art of sarcasm, my friend.


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 10035 times:



Quoting N766UA (Reply 24):
You've got alot to learn about the art of sarcasm, my friend.

Who does?



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineBooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 10582 times:



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 23):
On a related note, the airports operating the PMS machines are exploring the calibration of the system's sensitivity in relation to the James Brake Index (CRFI here). Icy or contaminated runways tend to affect the impact forces, which was not sufficiently designed in the original systems.



Quoting N766UA (Reply 24):
You've got alot to learn about the art of sarcasm, my friend.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 25):
Who does?

LOL. Threepoint got BUSTED. CRFI accounts for things like asphalt vs. concrete runways, which would have NO RELATION to impact forces on a PMS system. Sorry dude, but your sarcastic remark against PMS was poor. It was more like a lie. Even though GE's Tarmac Application for Marking Plane Operations Network (TAMPON) is a much better system, you should still get your facts straight.



B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 10481 times:



Quoting BooDog (Reply 26):
Sorry dude, but your sarcastic remark against PMS was poor.

Huh? Whidh remark was that exactly?

Quoting BooDog (Reply 26):
CRFI accounts for things like asphalt vs. concrete runways

No it doesn't. The CRFI tables do not take into account the actual composition of the pavement on a runway. http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/projects/air/f/crfi.htm It has to do with the amount of surface contaminant on the runway itself.

That amount of contaminant (snow vs standing water vs ice etc) definitely affects the level of impact an aircraft's wheels make upon the pressure sensors. Why else would all these airports subscribe to this expensive system?
I see you advocate the use of TAMPON, but I myself have only second-hand appreciation of its use and effectiveness.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 10473 times:



Quoting BooDog (Reply 26):
LOL. Threepoint got BUSTED. CRFI accounts for things like asphalt vs. concrete runways, which would have NO RELATION to impact forces on a PMS system.

LOL ... he ain't busted at all!

CRFI is a braking index, dependent on surface type AND contamination (snow, ice,rain etc.). A layer of powder snow, packed snow, or ice, has a significant effect on the sensitivity of the PMS system.

Quoting BooDog (Reply 26):
you should still get your facts straight.

He did ... did you??

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineBooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 10372 times:

Apparently not.   I'm not a pilot and a PMS expert... only an imaging engineer and TAMPON expert.


(EDIT) Definitely not an expert on PMS. I got CRFI and AIP mixed up.

Which is why TAMPON is better. No CRFI crap.

I'll stick to TAMPON conversations from now on.

[Edited 2007-12-06 12:13:19]


B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
26 Post contains images 2H4 : No, Threepoint is correct. The CRFI tables measure the amount and composition of surface contaminant for a reason. Less dense runway contaminants (su
27 Bond007 : Errr... did you miss my first post ??? Although some of the bounces may be manually inspected by an operator viewing the landing via monitors (or pre
28 Post contains images Tom in NO : Known around these parts as LABIA... We waive' em when we see 'em Tom at MSY
29 2H4 : No, I was pointing out that because, in practice, airlines refute the automated imaging system findings for virtually every landing involving a bounc
30 Post contains images Gregarious119 : Ahhh I haven't laughed out loud at work like that in a while.
31 Aircellist : So, to sum up, if the Tarmac Application for Marking Plane Operations Network (TAMPON) is used in conjunction with an Airport Runway System Engineer (
32 BooDog : Ah yes. Back to TAMPON. You are 100% correct, Mr. Bond, except for the 'automatic billing' part. We still manually review everything before a bill is
33 Threepoint : This is complicated by the presence of narrow-body (preferred) vs widebody users. The latter widebodies tend to possess dual sets of main gear trucks
34 BlueSkys : George Bush was never known to be too sharp....
35 474218 : I must congratulate you because you came about the closest to the correct answer. While there is no international standard for calculating landing fe
36 IADCA : Some places are fully automated, however, for example CHO in Virginia, where the system was tested for the first time in the US. The automated billin
37 Silver1SWA : Probably one of the greatest airliners.net posts I have ever seen. LOL
38 Threepoint : Is your friend permitted to test out more than one landing strip, or is he contractually obligated to service just one? He should know how some cente
39 IADCA : He's worked on a few since that one. I think the problem with that one (I haven't checked it out) is that the vegetation around the end of runway 21
40 Threepoint : Rightly so. There is an unwritten code to be observed. Considering that many term it a third-world country, the Brazilian maintenance methods are unb
41 Jgarrido : Make sure you get the approach gate keys from the tower before you do any instrument work.
42 CWUPilot : Let's not forget the impact of these systems on pilots who like to bounce it in a little rough on landing. Will costs increase for those who would rat
43 IADCA : Indeed. Embraer developed the system a few years back at their test facility. It's actually specially adapted as a comprehensive system to maintain a
44 Post contains images 2H4 : Well, the results can be extreme if care is not taken. If the application of pressure during contact is too great, damage can result: The consequence
45 Post contains images N710PS : I have this plan for a bridge across the Pacific I would like to sell you sir. Along with that I would also like to know if you would like a bucket of
46 Aircellist : (What a relief from A vs B wars)
47 Phoenix9 : Don't forget the you need quite sensitve Bounce Rate Enchanced Augmented Stress Trackers (BREASTs) to make sure the your STIFF landing can actually be
48 Post contains images AF340 : I gotta say, I am really surprised this thread hasn't been deleted! AF340
49 BlueSkys : remember that time, we all did that thing, and we laughed and laughed. that was a good day
50 Jetdeltamsy : what?????? wasted space. landing fees are based on weight of the aircaft.
51 IADCA : For some reason, I think you may have posted without reading the entire thread. Try reading the whole thread and you may notice that not only was the
52 Post contains images AF340 : Auxiliary Stress Sensor works in correlation with the BREASTs to provide the pilots with an accurate reading of their landing. AF340
53 Snaiks : I second that Motion
54 Bond007 : Did you read the other posts? It might in your neck of the woods, but there's obviously a lot of other systems out there. There are a few problems wi
55 Phoenix9 : However, there have been several noted cases of above systems malfunctioning due to interference of PMS. The pilots need to be extra cautious when an
56 IADCA : A pretty good fix. The first one they tried at CHO, by the way, was to design a completely new design called a "pressure-independent sensor system."
57 N1120A : Oh goodness, how could I have missed this. I was just going over United's financial records relating to their bankruptcy filing. It turns out their bi
58 Splitz : umm... I always wondered if they counted touch and gos or "go arounds" twice, especially if you have to re-enter the pattern and take another slot??~?
59 CWUPilot : Taking another slot is rarely approved by ATC. Any Air Traffic Controller that does approve said manuever is extremely cool.
60 Phoenix9 : Some of the coolest ATCs may agree to work together with other ATCs to ensure redundancy in above mentioned systems. Two ATCs can ensure that the pil
61 CWUPilot : This is true... However, I thought Splitz was refering to something else when he mentioned asking for another slot. To me, that sounds like requesting
62 SANFan : This is a classic thread by any board's standards -- truly a keeper! I haven't laughed so hard since Steve Allen and Johnny Carson were the true Kings
63 SEPilot : Having landed many times at BTV (and bounced a few of those) I discovered that not only was I charged for each bounce but the charge was multiplied b
64 Luv2cattlecall : Being serious for just a second, wouldn't landing actually put the most stress on the runway, because you have tires more or less slamming into the p
65 Threepoint : CWUPilot, you've hit upon a valuable tidbit of airmanship that none should forget. Unauthorized backcourse approaches are truly perilous, even if you
66 Post contains images N766UA : The original poster. [Edited 2007-12-06 18:55:51]
67 Threepoint : OK, good. I thought I'd laid mine on pretty thick. The lowest form of wit, that's me to a tee.
68 N766UA : Haha, no worries... yours was quite clear. Those FAA guys can be a real pain, sometimes, though. For real! I once landed on a small island airport, o
69 AA61Hvy : What happens if there is a cross wind landing? Do they have a like a combo pack or something..Land here get 4 wheels down for the price of two...?
70 Copter808 : Oh Jeeze, now there's a 100' gap in the ramp!
71 MSYPI7185 : What an awesome post! A wonderful change from the normal here.
72 BooDog : Good lord. Why can't posts EVER stay on topic? Bond, Threepoint and I tried to have a serious discussion about the PMS and TAMPON systems. All you a.n
73 Phoenix9 : Of course there are several combo packs available..BUT...those packs usually come with long contractual obligations that forbid the pilots to try and
74 2H4 : So true. As is so often the case, it's much, much cheaper (in the long run) to pay on demand. That way, you receive the services you want....and none
75 Post contains images Ratherbflyin : OMG!!! You guys had me falling off of my Pilates ball. I have never bookmarked a forum thread before, but this one is an absolute keeper. Thanks for a
76 BooDog : I got a call from a buddy of mine in Florida. He said that PNS is shut down due to hazardous conditions. Apparently they're out of their normal foam
77 WildcatYXU : Why? The other posters just reminded us of all available landing control systems. BTW, you forgot to mention that the PMS and TAMPON systems are to b
78 Post contains images Phoenix9 : In that case the pilots are advisable to use alternate runways available. If that is not attainable, the pilot must do a manual landing while keeping
79 2H4 : Glad to hear SDF is coming through for him. That's one good thing about locations in the southern states...they're generally happy to provide service
80 Aircellist : Well... On any "normal" thread, the three of you would already have been asked "source, please?" about twenty times, and here, no one bothered, so...
81 BooDog : I have nothing to hide. Besides, why would a system be deployed at WTF? WTF?!?!?!? Shun the nonbeliever. shuuuuuuuuuun.
82 D328 : Wow this thread was a waste of my life.
83 N710PS : I think someone MEL'd your Funometer. Better call your D.O.M. fast to get it replaced!
84 Burkhard : No. The German company was taken over by a Chinese investor. He took all the patents and closed the shop. Now in China they produce several thousand
85 Post contains images FlashFlyGuy : I thnk he might be a VS flyer!!!
86 Helvknight : Thirded. And fourthed and fifthed. Folks are wondering why I am looking at my PC crying with laughter.
87 BooDog : He just called me back. They had a near disaster; Louisville didn't have enough. They called around and found that Mobile had some extra liquid runwa
88 DavidByrne : Congratulations to all those who have entertained us so well on this thread. There's been some huge wit and amazingly good lateral thinking - and it w
89 Post contains images PADSpot : Lol. Back in paramedic school when I did my alternative civil service we had the Emergency Response Chain (normally a rough EMS process model). We ha
90 Gregarious119 : I just checked the thread after leaving work yesterday and I had 69 unread messages. Coincidence? I think not.
91 JetMech : Didn't you know that the whole purpose of tyre smoke is to hide the number of bounces to incur less landing fees? Michelin has actually developed a t
92 GBan : And now you missed mesage #96 by one !
93 Tom in NO : The funny thing is, I'd heard that CLT was closed down by dense fog, which, combined by a faulty homing device, created an inability for inbounds to
94 Bond007 : Well, obviously this ONLY affects the camera systems (some ... see later), and NOT the PMS system, since the PMS system works on pressure and is not
95 Post contains images AF340 : At this point, I would like to thank Freshlove for answering the question originally posed. And, of course, thanks to 2H4, Threepoint, BooDog, and Bo
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