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Delta JFK-Nairobi & Cairo  
User currently offlineJambo From Tanzania, joined Dec 2004, 247 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7369 times:

HI Anetters!! Hope the December season came in well.

Understand DL are to introduce effec. June 2008 JFK-NBO and JFK-CAIRO operations. They will do good on cargo side out of both Nairobi and Cairo but on the pax side--- to fill up 200+ seats i am not really sure!!

In a number of news articles Kenya Airways CEO mentions sad news about Middle east/ European carriers growing share in the african market & also mentions about expected US carrier i.e Delta ,,, all this killing african local and national airlines.......

Well DL is starting these routes, it will not be long before other US carriers take advantage and start eating Delta fruits.

I have some questions about their planned flights..
1. The fare is very expensive... Found return flight JFK-NBO at $4300 Economy class in July 2008. Are the fares similar in all their african routes?

2. Will Delta be codesharing its flights with Kenya Airways?

3. The flights are being promoted but subject to government approvals... Have they got the government approvals as of yet... or is it expected sometime 2 months before start of operations.. lets say april 2008?

4. Nairobi's Jomo Kenyatta International Airport (JKIA) was yet to be category A or something standards to allow direct flights to/from USA. Has JKIA got this status or not yet?

5. WIll delta have 5th freedom rights on the DKR/NBO leg? Since the flights operate JFK/NBO via DKR

6. Does Delta have own ticket offices in their other african/asia stations or appoint Main agents to do so as many pax within this area buy tickets by visiting Airline offices/GSA instead of online using credit cards.

7. Since they have allready started promoting this route in the press and started taking bookings for this routes,,. Are the booking numbers till now impressive?

8. Any possibility to extend the JFK-NBO flight to Tanzania?? Operate eg: JFK-DKR-NBO-DAR and v.v ... Because i remember some time back Tanzanian tourism minister i think) was requesting Delta to add Tanzania into their route network...?

9. How are delta loads on their other african routes... JNB/ACC/LOS??

10. Suppose if other US Carriers were to also start the NBO/CAI-JFK route. Would people in US prefer to fly delta or other american airlines? How is delta connected to other cities in america? How is delta viewed in the eyes of american travellers?

11. Will crew layover likely to be in NBO or DKR?

12. British Airways give 1% commision to travel agents in Kenya... while when Virgin atlantic started NBO-LHR route this year ,, they have been giving 9% commision to travel agents even more then what kenya airways is offering to Travel agencies.... This has been giving travel agents a real boost to sell VS over BA/KQ....... Does DL give any commision to travel agents in their african or middle east/asia stations? Noting the fact that most people in africa/asia dont have credit cards and so go through travel agents or airline offices to buy tickets...

13. Any news about Kenya Airways planned NBO- USA flights?

14. What is potential for DL to capture the CANADA/KENYA or BRAZIL/KENYA tourism traffic which currently mostly passes through Europe to get Nairobi? Any views on tourism traffic ex-YYZ connecting at JFK to Nairobi (Masaii Mara, Mombasa,Zanzibar, Kilimanjaro, )

15. Any other comments or views about DELTA AIR LINES Nairobi & Cairo operations??

thanks

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7304 times:

Sorry, no insights on DL's African operations (although I'm glad this part of the world is getting more connections!!), but isn't it interesting how DL acquired Pan Am's traffic rights and wouldn't use JFK as a base for over a decade? Now they can't schedule enough flights out of there!!


Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineAerorobNZ From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6846 times:

More very good news regarding my African connections....I can go via the US to get my 2 PC allowance.....

User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6807 times:

I can't see DL NOT wanting to add Cairo. It is the largest city in Africa. Further, O/D traffic would be good (one should think). As to people wanting to Vacation, I"m sure DL would arrange something with tour guides etc. It only makes to good sense. But, correct me if I'm wrong, DL was the first to slash travel agent commissions in the US (from 10% at one time?).

As to JFK -- Africa rights, I agree it has been a long time in coming. But remember, DL used to use a huge number of their widebodies to flood and control the Florida market. With Jetblue, Southwest, etc etc etc going into Florida as well, DL seems to have started a major increase into the international market. So far, it seems to be going well for them.

I wonder as well if DL won't first to a KQ code share DKR -- NBO. This would make sense, would it not? It would also allow another Skyteam connection into the States.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6684 times:

I would rather see JFK-CAI-NBO, JFK-DKR (B757?), ATL-REC-JNB and JFK-REC-CPT; but that's my personal opinion.
Anyhow, it's great that at last an U.S. airline is looking at Africa after the Pan Am days..



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6657 times:

I can only see Africa growing as a market. South Africa, obviously, but also -- as pointed out above --Tanzania, Senegal, Kenya, etc.

Another benefit -- more jobs (one hopes well paying), which in turn brings more stability.

I assume that DL crews to Africa are US based? Does DL maintain crew bases outside the US?

It would be interesting to see if (over the next several years) DL made DKR a "non US" crew base, similar to what AA and UA have overseas.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6255 times:

given the length of the flights, DL crews (who are US based) will layover in DKR and NBO... same pattern as on their existing JNB flights.

DL has traffic rights on all legs of its African flights. Have not seen that KQ will codeshare on DL but it is reasonable to think it is being discussed.

DL generally has sales agents and contract employees in most internatinonal stations.

It is doubtful that many other US airlines will enter Africa. CAI and JNB have some potential for 2 airlines but DL will certainly defend its territory - with additional/nonstop 777LR to JNB/flights should the competitive situation dictate it. Most African markets are relatively small but DL intends to keep them "their own".

DL will likely get Canada to Africa traffic but maybe not as much from S. America since there would be a day long layover on those flights. Since the flight times are shorter, they might get some of the traffic. DL is very aware of the international traffic flows that are taking place and are building a network that can capture them better than most other US airlines.


User currently offlineLH459 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6227 times:



Quoting Jambo (Thread starter):
Found return flight JFK-NBO at $4300 Economy class in July 2008

That sounds like the unrestricted economy fare. Perhaps the other fares hadn't been loaded when you checked, but I'm now seeing restricted economy fares starting around $1650 +tax. Consolidated nets have also been filed.



"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5955 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
Most African markets are relatively small but DL intends to keep them "their own".

It makes sense to start laying an infrastructure, brand loyalty, working relationships etc......the market is small....and a small market can be a good profit maker (obviously). But I think the markets have no where to go but bigger. DL I think has some good long range planning going on here.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineBlr2Syr From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5810 times:

Dont think Delta -JFK-NBO would do well , It would have been way better for KQ to launch this route with their 772 metal . Chances are it would have become their top 1 or 2 routes.NBO-DKR/ACC- JFK would have been a winner with good connections to EBB,DAR and other sub saharan destinations. KQ have a well known name in the region and besides they are part of Sky team ( not sure what sort of a member)- DL could have code shared with them offering good connections from JFK.

Those old Delta 767 work horses would surely feel the pain of the journey.

On a separate note something should be done to stop EK from plundering this region with relentless capacity. NBO has great potential as a regional hub.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5657 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
It is doubtful that many other US airlines will enter Africa.

No it's not. It's an absolute given that others will, and I think AA, CO, and UA will all be coming. Not soon at all, but down the line (say around 2010-11) they will start.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):

DL will likely get Canada to Africa traffic but maybe not as much from S. America since there would be a day long layover on those flights.

South America is well connected to South Africa, which gives quicker connecting opportunities.



a.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5652 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
It is doubtful that many other US airlines will enter Africa.

Yep, as MAH said, it's not doubtful in the slightest - it's almost a certainty that other U.S. airlines will be coming to Africa. It's a matter of when, not if.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
CAI and JNB have some potential for 2 airlines but DL will certainly defend its territory - with additional/nonstop 777LR to JNB/flights should the competitive situation dictate it.

Oh, I think several airlines could be quite competitive, by utilizing their hubs to fight Delta's headstart. Delta has done well on their flights from JFK and Atlanta, but United could easily utilize the massive African population and business/government ties in IAD/D.C. to do equally well on flights from IAD to certain African markets. Same is - without question - true about AA at MIA, which is probably the second most viable hub to Africa in the U.S. after ATL or JFK. Miami has not only the massive local VFR population, but also lots of business and cultural links, to several major African markets, especially LOS and JNB/CPT.


User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5584 times:



Quoting Jambo (Thread starter):
Well DL is starting these routes, it will not be long before other US carriers take advantage and start eating Delta fruits.

Other airlines are in a situation unlike Delta's. Delta can expand and keep expanding because they do things like put internationally-capable aircraft on domestic routes, such as the 764ER's. Also, Delta has just taken delivery of some 757's which will free up some 763ER's for more routes such as JFK-AMM, JFK-CAI, JFK-NBO, JFK-CPT, etc. Not many airlines currently fly widebodies like that domestically and they can't simply stick them on an international flight.

Quoting Blr2Syr (Reply 9):
Those old Delta 767 work horses would surely feel the pain of the journey.

No?



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5533 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Yep, as MAH said, it's not doubtful in the slightest - it's almost a certainty that other U.S. airlines will be coming to Africa. It's a matter of when, not if.

There is one airline that has an aircraft capable of flying JNB to the US nonstop and it is DL with the 777LR. The same could be said of NBO, if it develops to the point to justify nonstop service.

Which leaves west Africa and Cairo. DL has already staked out a pretty strong position in west Africa.

Which leaves Cairo which DL will serve from just one of its two hubs, leaving the potential to start service from ATL.

So, yes, it is possible someone else could start service to Africa but they will face a well-entrenched delta that will have the hubs and the aircraft to render anyone else as a fringe player.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5528 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
There is one airline that has an aircraft capable of flying JNB to the US nonstop and it is DL with the 777LR.

For now.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
So, yes, it is possible someone else could start service to Africa but they will face a well-entrenched delta that will have the hubs and the aircraft to render anyone else as a fringe player.

Since this is coming from you, I'll take it for what it's worth.

But several other airlines - especially AA - have hubs (MIA) that are just as viable if not more so than Delta, and thus will hardly be rendered "fringe player[s]." Should AA want to - which remains to be seen - they can easily become an extremely large and successful player in Africa, and be plenty competitive with Delta, entrenched or not.


User currently offline767-332ER From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2030 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5300 times:



Quoting Blr2Syr (Reply 9):
Those old Delta 767 work horses would surely feel the pain of the journey

What kind of technical information do you have to make such a dumb statement? Are you saying that just because they are flying a 767, the 767 is somehow "weaker" than the T7? The 767 is an amazing aircraft and it performs extremely well on Delta's extensive long-haul routes. Also, the airline is being extremely wise in opening the route with a stop in DKR (to also offer passengers from its ATL hub to connect) with the 767-300ER. If the route is a money-maker, the airline will begin upgrading capacity (as was done with the JNB route with the 767-400ER).

Don't you know it's better to fly the route yourself and make money on it than have someone else fly it and throw your code on it? DL has an extremely great knowledge in long-haul travel and this is the best reason (for Delta and its customers) to have Delta fly the route. Btw, DL's 767's are hardly "old" and perform extremely well on DL's long-haul routes.



Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
User currently offlineBlr2Syr From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5289 times:



Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 15):

Don't you know it's better to fly the route yourself and make money on it than have someone else fly it and throw your code on it? DL has an extremely great knowledge in long-haul travel and this is the best reason (for Delta and its customers) to have Delta fly the route. Btw, DL's 767's are hardly "old" and perform extremely well on DL's long-haul routes.

Maybe ur right


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5128 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
But several other airlines - especially AA - have hubs (MIA) that are just as viable if not more so than Delta

perhaps you can confirm what type of ETOPS AA has on their 777s. Various people have said at different times that AA's 777s don't even have 180 minute ETOPS; you can't cross the S. Atlantic without it. And the 777ER still can't take off nonstop to the US from JNB.

Oh, and the minute any other carrier even thinks about flying to JNB, DL will pop a 777LR on the route (the first ones arrive in 2 months) and the "other carrier" will be at a distinct disadvantage. AA may carry the local MIA passengers since the choice will be a one-stop on AA or a connection on DL but they will be at a disadvantage on every other O&D since DL can connect them through ATL faster.

Now tell me again how many carriers we can expect to see serving Africa and the routes you expect them to serve.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5114 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
Various people have said at different times that AA's 777s don't even have 180 minute ETOPS; you can't cross the S. Atlantic without it.

138 is more than enough to cross the S. Atlantic from MIA. In fact, the Great Circle route MIA-JNB is never outside 138 minutes.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5086 times:

assuming you don't have hurricanes in the way. Hate to have cancel the flight because a hurricane pops up.

And remember the 77ER can't fly nonstop from JNB to the US. If you stop in west Africa, you do indeed have a section of the Atlantic that is more than 138 minutes from land.

So, are you saying, AA won't spend the money to maintain their 77s to 180 minute ETOPS even though Boeing designed the plane for that purpose?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5065 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
So, are you saying, AA won't spend the money to maintain their 77s to 180 minute ETOPS even though Boeing designed the plane for that purpose?

No, I didn't say anything about what ETOPS they're certified to (though I suspect it's 180 or ORD-DEL would take a hit from time to time). All I said is that 138 isn't really necessary to fly from Miami to anywhere in Africa. Even a 763ER with ETOPS 138 could fly MIA-DKR.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineJkj777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5058 times:



Quoting Jambo (Thread starter):
The fare is very expensive... Found return flight JFK-NBO at $4300 Economy class in July 2008. Are the fares similar in all their african routes?

Wow, I found a fare for $1,946.20 in July........$4300 is quite expensive for an L, U, or T fare.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5058 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
So, are you saying, AA won't spend the money to maintain their 77s to 180 minute ETOPS even though Boeing designed the plane for that purpose?

No, I didn't say anything about what ETOPS they're certified to (though I suspect it's 180 or ORD-DEL would take a hit from time to time). All I said is that 180 isn't really necessary to fly from Miami to anywhere in Africa. Even a 763ER with ETOPS 138 could fly MIA-DKR.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5031 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
assuming you don't have hurricanes in the way. Hate to have cancel the flight because a hurricane pops up.

I missed the part were all Delta Airlines flights are magically immune to weather delays and cancelations, such as New York snow storms.

You are ignorantly assuming that airlines like AA won't potentially order longer-range planes in the future. That's a moronic assumption. Of course, we don't know what is going to happen, but don't just presume that in 2011 DL will be the only U.S.-based 772LR operator.

As for what routes U.S. carriers can fly to Africa, there are plenty. Continental obviously is at a huge advantage at Newark. Accra, Cairo, Cape Town, Dakar, Jo'Burg, and Lagos - easily done. United is at a huge advantage with Washington, D.C., which has a huge African community (which I believe might be larger than New York's) - Accra especially could be a gold mine. American Airlines has another good O&D advantage - Miami is a large market to Western Africa and South Africa, there are strong business ties, and, most importantly, a lot of cargo. MIA-LOS, MIA-DKR, MIA-JNB, MIA-CPT...all possible. The Miami office has been pushing for a route or two to Africa for years, but Dallas is a lot more conservative and has been very hesitant.

As for what planes can operate these, a 763 can operate any route to western Africa. Going to South Africa non-stop isn't going to be easy for any of the airlines with their current fleet, but they can do it. AA can fly MIA-JNB-CPT-MIA with their 772s, they would just have to put some unfavourable cargo restrictions. UA's 744s won't have much trouble doing IAD-JNB non-stop, although I don't know if the return is possible non-stop (back in 1993, UA announced, but never launched, JFK-JNB-JFK with a 744).



a.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4978 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
I missed the part were all Delta Airlines flights are magically immune to weather delays and cancelations, such as New York snow storms.

Come on, MAH, didn't you hear?

Delta's visionary leadership invented a top-secret meteorological suppression device for use on their flights.

They discovered this right after they figured out how to build a new terminal at JFK that is 10x better than AA's but only costs $25 million, and just before they discovered how to fly every profitable route on earth, but also simultaneously lock every competitive out of the market.

I hear they're working on levitation and teleportation next.

Smart guys, those Delta execs.  sarcastic 


25 Jambo : Blr2Syr > Statistics as under: 86500 American tourists visited Kenya in year 2006. And this is a growing trend now expected that american tourists vi
26 AerorobNZ : Far more Canadians than Americans in my experience in East Africa. Having said that I was traveling in a style a lot of Americans would not travel in
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