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Lap Children  
User currently offlineIairallie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3401 times:

Just reading through the NTSB report regarding the UAL flight 232 crash at Sioux City and a few passages have really reinforced my opinions that allowing lap children should be banned. Though I'd share this one with you all...

"Current FAA regulations allow occupants who have not reached their
second birthday to be held in the lap of an adult. The Safety Board believes
that this regulation does not adequately protect occupants under age 2 and
urged the FAA to require that infants and small children be restrained in
child safety seats appropriate to their height and weight. The Safety Board
believes that time consuming flight attendant duties, such as providing
special brace-for-impact instructions for unrestrained infants, answering
questions about those instructions, and distributing pillows in an effort to
enhance the effectiveness of adult lap belts on small children, could be
reduced if child restraint was mandatory. Thus, flight attendants could
devote more time to other important duties while they prepare the cabin for
an emergency landing."

Parents it's the holiday season many of you will be traveling with small children. I beg of you, If you love your babies please buy them a seat and use an FAA approved restraint system to keep them safe. You will not be able to keep them safe in an accident with just your hands alone and they will be crushed if you belt them in with you. You and your baby will both be more comfortable with your baby safely belted into a restraint system.

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19385 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

I am in firm agreement and I am a pediatrician.

User currently offlineNwafflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

And, I totally agree with the above post - I always feel so sorry for both parents and children when the child is a 'lap' child. To add to the issue here is the comfort/well being of the other passengers. Most of us try and help single parents traveling with multiple small children, but really, do babies need to travel during the holidays? Let the grandparents visit the children, not the other way 'round, and as far as international travel is concerned, please have people who are moving to another country not fly during the holiday season

User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2359 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Lap kids scare the hell out of me...

Question.

Isn't there some strap on papoose-like FAA approved restraint system for use during takeoff and landing? Like the kid is strapped to the stomach of the adult during TO/LD/cruise/whenever... I think I remember reading something about this vis-a-vis evacuation regulations or times...



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineHalophila From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 646 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3364 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 3):
Isn't there some strap on papoose-like FAA approved restraint system for use during takeoff and landing?

How about making use of the overhead bins ? Big grin
Oh wait... they're full of enormous rollerbags, never mind...



Flown on 707, 717, 727, 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 743 744 74SP 757 753 762 763 772 773 77W D10 DC9 M11 M80 M87
User currently offlineNwafflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Again, why travel with the babies? let the rest of the family come to them, don't put the babies through this kind of torture (to say nothing of what the parents go through)

User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3321 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 3):
Lap kids scare the hell out of me...

They are really a pain in the neck. When I worked for Continental as a gate agent, it was very common for the parent to board the airplane first, put the lap child in an empty seat next to them, and pretend that the child had a ticket.

My computer system and ticket count would show that I had enough seats for all the people on the plane. I would have to go onboard at "go time", demand that the parent show me a valid boarding pass for the child, and if there wasn't one, insist that the parent put the child in their lap. Frequently, the parent would then argue with me and make a scene for forcing them to give up a seat they had not paid for.

On several occasions I had to pay compensation to an "overbooked" passenger in order to not take a delay when the parent pulled this stunt. This was terrible because I had to close the flight in my computer system showing an empty seat, yet still pay compensation for the overbooked passenger because I did not have time to check the parent's ticket.

The only thing that saved me sometimes was if I was boarding a plane with a very senior flight crew and the flight attendant was savvy enough to know what was going on. They would take care of the problem for me and the flight would leave on time.

I also had many parents with children who able to walk and talk like a four year old tell me that their child was under two. This was very difficult to handle because you can't exactly ask for the child's driver's license to prove their age and the parents never bring a birth certificate.


User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3280 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I have flown with little ones before and it is scary. When you take off and land it is hard for the child because they are bouncing around and it is hard for parents to control them. I believe the child should have their own seats. Although the airlines should not make parents pay in full. At least give them a little break. It is hard enough for big families. Hope to see more on this topic in the future.
Sully



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3267 times:



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 7):



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 7):
I believe the child should have their own seats. Although the airlines should not make parents pay in full. At least give them a little break

I disagree. You should not get special treatment as far as paying for seats go, just because you chose to have a family. If this became practice, we would all have to make up the difference by paying more for our seats.


User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3248 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 8):
we would all have to make up the difference by paying more for our seats.

I am not saying you pay 300 dollars for that coach ticket and since my child is under two I should only have to pay 150. I believe in something like a twenty dollar difference which for a family of 5 can be a big difference



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineBWilliams From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3203 times:



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
I am not saying you pay 300 dollars for that coach ticket and since my child is under two I should only have to pay 150. I believe in something like a twenty dollar difference which for a family of 5 can be a big difference

I agree that every person on a flight, regardless of age, should have a seat, and that for young children, there should be a discount of some sort. To make sure that airlines aren't losing money or making the flight more difficult for other passengers, however, there would have to be restrictions in place, e.g: no discounts on the lowest fare classes (no reason to give a discount on a 100-dollar economy ticket), and no discounts in business/first, and no upgrades on Y children tickets (children that young really don't have a place in F/J... that's a discussion for another thread, however).



Regards, Brad Williams
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3203 times:



Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 5):
Again, why travel with the babies? let the rest of the family come to them, don't put the babies through this kind of torture (to say nothing of what the parents go through)

 checkmark 

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 8):
I disagree. You should not get special treatment as far as paying for seats go, just because you chose to have a family. If this became practice, we would all have to make up the difference by paying more for our seats.

 checkmark 

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
I am not saying you pay 300 dollars for that coach ticket and since my child is under two I should only have to pay 150. I believe in something like a twenty dollar difference which for a family of 5 can be a big difference

NO!!!

I am saying that kids regardless of age pay adult fare.

If a family of 5 cannot afford to fly, then maybe they should either drive or stay home.


User currently offlineBeefstew25 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

If planes were falling out of the sky left and right, I would agree with banning lap kids. But they aren't.

Maybe we should ban escalators. I think they kill a couple kids a year...



MLB: Where you are always number one for takeoff.....
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2359 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3170 times:



Quoting Beefstew25 (Reply 12):
If planes were falling out of the sky left and right, I would agree with banning lap kids. But they aren't.

Maybe we should ban escalators. I think they kill a couple kids a year...

On my last transpac flight we had pretty bad turbulence, a few people screaming and crying for maybe 30 minutes or so over the Bering Strait. If I was traveling with kids they'd be in a seat with a belt. But I guess it's all YMMV...



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

In several videotaped interviews one of the FAs on 232 has talked about how horrible it was emotionally to have all of those lap children and how inadaquate she feels (felt?) the policies were for protecting them in an emergency. That has stuck in my mind and the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title. (As a side note, did you know that UA was running some kind of 'children's promo' (I forget what the exact details were, but I tink it was a children-fly-free/at steep discount) leading to a higher-than-normal number of children on that flight.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 3):
Isn't there some strap on papoose-like FAA approved restraint system for use during takeoff and landing? Like the kid is strapped to the stomach of the adult during TO/LD/cruise/whenever... I think I remember reading something about this vis-a-vis evacuation regulations or times...

IIRC, in certain other countries such a strap is used, but the FAA has prohibited it for one reason or another related to emergencies/evacuation...

pauses...
Checks the FARs...

14 CFR 121.311(b)(2)(ii)(D): "Except as provided in §121.311(b)(2)(ii)(C)( 3 ) and §121.311(b)(2)(ii)(C)( 4 ), booster-type child restraint systems (as defined in Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 213 (49 CFR 571.213)), vest- and harness-type child restraint systems, and lap held child restraints are not approved for use in aircraft;..." (emphasis mine); (c)(3) and (c)(4) only allow those for which the airline provides it and where it has been approved by a type certificate or supplimental type certificate

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 8):
I disagree. You should not get special treatment as far as paying for seats go, just because you chose to have a family.

I agree with Letsgetwet -- if you are occupying the seat, you should pay the cost associated with that seat. Regardless of if you're 4 or 40 if you're strapped in to that seat you're consuming the same service (+/- a 100 pounds or so) and preventing the airline from realizing revenue by having another warm body stapped in to that seat.



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineNG1Fan From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

What about the extra child belts parents are normally handed out? They are a separate loop with buckle. The adult's seatbelt is threaded through a loop on the childs belt. The child therefore is not restrained by the parent's seatbelt but restrained by their own seatbelt affixed to the parent's seatbelt.

This is normally handed out to parents with lap children. I haven't flown in the USA with my child before, so I can't comment on that. But in Euroland and Asia/Australia, they are handed out as a matter of course.

As for the brace position - now that's scary.....

Our son now requires his own seat - at that is good. Make it mandatory for children to occupy their own seat just as soon as they cannot fit into the bassinet. Discount it by all means, say 50% of the adult fare.

Is there a statistic as to how lap children there are per flight?

NG1Fan


User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2359 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3120 times:



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 14):
pauses...
Checks the FARs...

ah. Thanks.  champagne 



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2598 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3111 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 11):
I am saying that kids regardless of age pay adult fare.

Bullshit. Reasons for this statement:

1. Kids are lighter, so there is more weight available for cargo and less fuel burn
2. Rip off the parent on a lowest fare leisure trip and what will he do? He will take his next full fare Y or J business trip to somebody else. Airlines know what they're doing when offering discounts for children.


User currently offlineFreshlove1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3108 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 6):
On several occasions I had to pay compensation to an "overbooked" passenger in order to not take a delay when the parent pulled this stunt.

Really? If that "overbooked" pax had a boarding pass for the seat that the lap child was in then its a very simple procedure to go and tell the pax with the kid that the seat is taken and the kid must be held on the lap.


User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3094 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 3):
Isn't there some strap on papoose-like FAA approved restraint system for use during takeoff and landing?



Quoting NG1Fan (Reply 15):
What about the extra child belts parents are normally handed out? They are a separate loop with buckle. The adult's seatbelt is threaded through a loop on the childs belt. The child therefore is not restrained by the parent's seatbelt but restrained by their own seatbelt affixed to the parent's seatbelt

They are not considered safe by US regulatory agencies and are illegal for use. The theory is that it traps the child under the parents body weight and they can be crushed.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 14):
vest- and harness-type child restraint systems, and lap held child restraints are not approved for use in aircraft;..."

To add to that I was reading some of the parent survivors accounts. One mentioned that her 11 month old was squirming tantruming, and wouldn't stay put in the proscribed brace position because she was scared. Another kept loosing grip on her son and he hit his head several times as he bounced around.

I'm not a huge fan of discounts its not like you can strap two infants into one seat making one full fare but in the interest of public safety I think it might be the right thing to offer an incentive.

To all the anti-baby crowd not a huge fan of em myself but I have no problems with them as passengers as long as they are in a car seat and their parents come prepared. In fact other than some fussing on take off and landing if they are healthy most don't make a peep most of the flight. More than I can say of our adult passengers.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3083 times:



Quoting Iairallie (Thread starter):
Parents it's the holiday season many of you will be traveling with small children.

Flying home on the 22nd.

My wife and I debated holding our daughter or giving her her own seat.
Came down to this:
13 hours of holding an active 18 month old: Impossible
Ability to get any sleep (daughter or ourselves): Impossible
Northern Pacific Turbulence in Winter: Scary
Landing at MSP in winter when daughter will be asleep: NOT A GOOD IDEA.
Bought a great child seat that can be used in a plane: Daughter gets good seat
Daughter can look out the window and enjoy the ride: Good for all
Cars travel 60kph. Planes go much much faster: Seats are good

So...Spent an extra $1500 and got my daughter her own seat.

I am a safety freak: Daughter gets her own seat.

Down side. Seats that might go to a full fair are now going to a kid. Well better a live one than a dead one, right?
Down side. More Child meals to give out before main meal service. Better a happy smiling kid than a crying one, right?
Down side. More families wanting to board early with childseats. Well better do it early than later, right?

What should be required?
The full FAA approval and acceptance by airlines of the restraints approved on AA.
The ability to reserve those harnesses for a minimum fee when purchasing a ticket. The harness would be prepared by ground crew when servicing aircraft. Assigned to specific seat.
NO Child restraint? NO Fly.
or
NO Child Restraint? FULL FAIR FOR CHILD + Child harness rental.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineCytz_pilot From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3045 times:

My son just turned 2 so from now on he'll have his own seat, and that's better for us - we flew a few months back and keeping him coralled on our laps was a nightmare. We always used to take the car seat with us as carry-on in case there was a spare seat available on the flight, and it turned out that at least half the time that was the case. We just made an effort to book on flights that tended to have extra space on a regular basis.

There was a product we purchased, the Baby B'air I believe, it was approved by the FAA for cruise (could not wear it during take-off and landing).

Sadly, now that our flight costs will be 50% more expensive, we will be visiting family less. It comes down to the economics and logistics of families on separate sides of the continent.


User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2050 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3021 times:

Nothing worse than the parents who set up junior in a car seat despite listing him as a lap child. Pre-board, strap in and the usual mess then find out that they put him in a seat that was assigned to someone else. Of course they usually then want that person to sit elsewhere, resulting in confusion and usually anger on the part of one of the parties. Especially when the guy booked an aisle and the only other empty seat on the aircraft is a middle between two three-hundred pounders.

User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2988 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 20):
The full FAA approval and acceptance by airlines of the restraints approved on AA

Not sure what you are talking about? I used to work for AA and the only approved restraints were the same ones accepted by the FAA and permitted onboard any American carrier. Harness type devices were not allowed.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 20):
I am a safety freak: Daughter gets her own seat

Good for you! I could hug you and your wife for making the right decision!


User currently offlineLimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2975 times:

For as long as I've had kids, I've bought seats for them, regardless of age.

If you must, think of it as a "sale" on the equivalent of a First Class seat, i.e., you and a baby sit in 2 economy seats, or you and a baby share a First Class seat? 2 econ seats are the better deal. Also, you're guaranteed an oxygen mask "in the unlikely event of loss of cabin pressure". (Count them.)

Frankly, I think the same thing should be required of large passengers. Or pax with lots of bags. Effectively, price passenger seats like cargo.

Why should a small 110 lbs lady be limited to the same 2 bags at 40lbs each as a 250 lbs "Godzilla" pax? My proposal: weigh the passenger and their bags together, and also measure their waist (or some other significant dimension) to determine if any extra charges are appropriate.


25 ANother : I recall that after the SUX incident the DOT did a study on the NTSB recommendation. They determined that if infants were to be required to have seats
26 ANother : Sorry too late to edit. I meant to say: "... and pay the ADULT fare."
27 NG1Fan : I had no idea! With the benefit of hindsight, we woud have stumped up for the a separate seat. We traveled SVO-Australia via VIE about four times bef
28 GT4EZY : I too remember hearing comments made by one of the crew memebers who was involved in Sioux City. However, I don't see the issue in lap restraints. In
29 Caspritz78 : No people. The airline decides what to charge. If it want to be very family friendly they will offer something. Come on, there are so many promotions
30 BHMBAGLOCK : My kids have always had their own seats. This has a lot to do with the fact that I've actually been in a plane that crashed and know first hand the vi
31 Post contains links Centrair : It is the CARES system. AA teamed up with AMsafe to do something with CARES. AMSafe's copy of an article signed by Arpey American Airlines And Amsafe
32 Post contains links Edina : Standard practice on Pam Ann......check out their safety guidelines on this page........ Pam Ann's New Safety Card - Funny! (pics) (by Umfolozi Nov 1
33 IAirAllie : Yes, it is if the are not in a proper child safety seat. Wrapping a seatbelt around an infant that cannot support it's own body weight is going to do
34 Pope : Let me play devil's advocate - Some people argue that eliminating lap seating will force families on tight budgets - those who can't afford the additi
35 SeattleFlyer : Perhaps some consideration should be given to this before having a big family....
36 Pope : Since when has personal responsibility ever factored into any decision????? People talk about freedoms not obligations.
37 Sh0rtybr0wn : Just dont move then, sit in the seat you selected and bought. I never move. Airline seating is dog eat dog. You have to look out for number 1.
38 LHRBlueSkies : Kids should be strapped in their own seats, in approved baby-seats - it just make sense, and it should be an IATA-requirement, so affecting all member
39 Lincoln : Most airlines specifically state in their contract of carriage that a particular seat is not guaranteed, for example Continental Airlines Contract of
40 Letsgetwet : So we are going to start setting fares by weight? That is BS. If your butt takes up a seat you should pay for it.
41 Pope : And if it takes up two seats, you should buy two seats.
42 LAXPAX : I agree with your sentiment regarding infant seats, but I just wanted to make a clarification on the following: Motor vehicle laws in the USA are set
43 Post contains images Db373 : Wow. I'll remember to provide my weight next time I book a ticket. I didn't realize that being underweight would get me a cheaper fare! Thanks!
44 Bok269 : I share the sentiment of many posters on here. I think that for the safety of everyone on board the aircraft, children of all ages should have their o
45 Eghansen : It was very common at the time 15 years ago for there to be two boarding passes for the same seat. I flew last year on United from LAX to NRT and whe
46 Tornado82 : That's not going to help when you have 137 seats, 137 adults, and an unticketed baby sitting in a seat they didn't pay for... open seating doesn't de
47 Post contains images Xtoler : I've heard of those too, and I just don't see the safety in it. While I feel air transportation is the safest transporation available, my wife took b
48 Nzrich : and why would you be an idiot and jump up and down like a infant ??? All that requires is asking a flight attendant which will sort it for you !!!! B
49 Post contains images TLG : I remember something about this too, that if a seat for a child was required more families would drive. Statistically a child is much safer on a pare
50 Eghansen : I didn't mean that Southwest's open seating helps when someone is trying to pass a baby off as a paying pax. I only meant that boarding with open sea
51 Letsgetwet : The yield on a trans atlantic flights for most airlines is probably about $0.12 /mi/seat. How much cheaper do you want to fly? When you start giving
52 Bluewhale18210 : One of our 744 captain told me a story... Flight went from JFK-ANC-TPE and there are only a handful of passengers getting on at ANC, but nevertheless
53 Jetjack74 : We commonly run into people who have the bellybelt or belt-loop harnesses and the snugglies which none are approved for use on us, but are KLM and Ai
54 Jetblueguy22 : Wow I didn't realize how strong some of these opinions would be! I understand the maybe you should take having a big family into consideration. Having
55 Indy : I have 3 kids and I think the whole concept of lap children is idiotic. It is completely unsafe. Heck I can't even buckle my kids up in a car at that
56 DeltaJet757 : PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!!!! ...Purchase a seat for your kid(s) instead of having them in your lap! Trust me, everyone including you and your child wil
57 Jetblueguy22 : Wow that is some story! I feel bad for you. What a tough flight. Blue
58 Post contains images Indy : Too bad you couldn't just smack that lady. You would have gotten in trouble but it would have felt good
59 TwinOtter : Given the number of planes in the air, the odds of a few encountering severe turbulence are quite good. And in fact, NTSB statistics bear this out. I
60 DeltaJet757 : Oh, how I wish I could have done that. I think what I'll do is take a dummy with me the next time that happens.
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