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KLM And AF Bus Service To YOW  
User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10256 times:

Does anyone know how busy the buses for AF and KLM between YOW and YUL are? Now that AF/KLM are a single airline, I wonder if they might use a single bus between them (or maybe KLM would like to start service to YOW  Yeah sure).

My real question is this, though: how can AF offer bus service between YOW and YUL? I know it's not actual air service, but it effectively allows them to sell tickets YOW-CDG, which would violate the bilateral agreement. I suppose it's okay for KL since they have route authority to YOW, but I don't understand the situation with AF.

Lastly, are there similar situations elsewhere? This is the only case I've heard of where airlines operate their own bus service. I'm assuming they charter the buses from a third party, but if not, I'd be even more surprised that they consider such a service worthwhile.

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10177 times:



Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter):
Lastly, are there similar situations elsewhere? This is the only case I've heard of where airlines operate their own bus service. I'm assuming they charter the buses from a third party, but if not, I'd be even more surprised that they consider such a service worthwhile.

LH opereate bus service between several points in Germany, Austria and France and their nearest major airport in Germany. I think the buses are operated by other companies but they are in LH livery.
http://www.lufthansa-airportbus.com/

LH also has an arrangement with the German railway (Deutsche Bahn) for connecting services between FRA-CGN and FRA-STR where connectng passengers travel on the high-speed ICE trains between CGN/STR and FRA airport, using normal airline tickets and through fares.
http://www.bahn.de/p/view/internatio...nglisch/travelagent/airail_e.shtml
http://www.lufthansa.com/online/port...rom_to_airport?l=en&nodeid=2063552

There are some similar arrangements in other countries.

For several years starting in the 1980s LH had an agreement with the German railway to operate private trains painted in LH livery to carry connecting passengers between FRA airport and DUS/CGN/Bonn. Some history/photos of that operation here:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ny8h-ky/db-page/elh-exp.htm

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ny8h-ky/db-page/db-photo/lh-exp-p8.jpg


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10049 times:



Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter):
Lastly, are there similar situations elsewhere?



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
LH opereate bus service between several points in Germany, Austria and France and their nearest major airport in Germany. I think the buses are operated by other companies but they are in LH livery.

Similarly SN Brussels have a bus service from BRU to the centre of ANR.

TGVAIR or Thalyss International (to Brussels) are available through AF for connections too.


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10034 times:

BA sells (or used to sell) tickets to Dammam in Saudi Arabia with a bus/limo service from Bahrain.

This caused me some problems in the border as my visa stated 'entry by air'. In the end my travel agency put me on a Gulf Air flight.


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7932 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10005 times:

Etihad sell what is basically a connecting flight to Dubai, if you put London to Dubai into Expedia or whatever, an Etihad option comes up straight away, which is LHR-AUH-DXB and the second leg is a bus that drives the 60 miles along the highway between Abu Dhabi and Dubai. (Worth noting that LH fly AUH-DXB with the 747, definitely the shortest 747 flight in the world right now.)

In fact the Etihad bus is great, it runs every 15 mins or so, its basically free even if you dont buy a ticket. I have used it when flying in the region eg EY from London to AUH then IRB from DXB to THR.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineMANmatt From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 969 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9962 times:



Quoting JJJ (Reply 3):
BA sells (or used to sell) tickets to Dammam in Saudi Arabia with a bus/limo service from Bahrain

KL also offer a similar bus/limo service between BAH and DMM, which operates on the days when the direct AMS-DMM flight doesnt.

Matt


User currently offlineSB From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9883 times:

The Air France, KLM and Swiss (They have one too) Montreal <-> Ottawa shuttles are operated by Skyport.

S.



"Confirm leave the hold and maintain 320kts?!"
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9849 times:

Isn't YOW big enough to support AF CDG-YOW flights?
Grant that I think AF doesn't have B757 and their A319 may not make it transatlantic.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineAH332 From Algeria, joined Mar 2007, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9770 times:

Hi,

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7):
Isn't YOW big enough to support AF CDG-YOW flights?
Grant that I think AF doesn't have B757 and their A319 may not make it transatlantic.

Being born and raised in Ottawa, I used to head to YOW by bus (OC Transpo), and just watch all the activity going on. It was a shame there were never any heavies except AC 763s that used to fly to LHR and some shuttle flights.

I would love to see YOW get more direct international service from other airline. I believe the demand is there. Many immigrants in Ottawa that were always forced to go through YUL or YYZ to get to their homelands (Like with my family and flights to ALG). AF or LH with their connections worldwide could probably make the route work. Either that or i'm just dreaming for the day!  Smile

Cheers,
Imad



Bledi Heya Al Djazaeer! // Next Flights: AB MIA-DUS-ORY, AF ORY-MRS-ALG
User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9688 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7):
Isn't YOW big enough to support AF CDG-YOW flights?
Grant that I think AF doesn't have B757 and their A319 may not make it transatlantic.

I definitely think that such a route could work, and with open skies, I believe AF may consider it. Between AF and KL, they operate three daily buses with a capacity of roughly 150 people. Based on that, I imagine YOW could easily support an A332. Unfortunately, presently AF is only allowed to fly into YUL and YYZ, which makes the bus between YOW and YUL rather peculiar, since they are effectively selling tickets YOW-CDG, which isn't allowed, to my understanding.

Thanks for the responses, it seems airlines running buses are far more common than I realized.


User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9686 times:



Quoting AH332 (Reply 8):
I would love to see YOW get more direct international service from other airline. I believe the demand is there. Many immigrants in Ottawa that were always forced to go through YUL or YYZ to get to their homelands (Like with my family and flights to ALG). AF or LH with their connections worldwide could probably make the route work. Either that or i'm just dreaming for the day! Smile

AC will be starting YOW-FRA next summer on a 763, so YOW will go up to two daily departures to Europe.


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4845 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9632 times:



Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter):
Does anyone know how busy the buses for AF and KLM between YOW and YUL are? Now that AF/KLM are a single airline, I wonder if they might use a single bus between them (or maybe KLM would like to start service to YOW Yeah sure).

I don't think this will ever come to be. Frankly it would cause more problems for the agent doing the check-in in Ottawa who typically has batches of boarding passes preprinted. The amount of coordination would not be worth it. On top of this since the buses are branded with KL and AF logos it keep both brands in the public eye in Ottawa, albeit to a limited extent.

Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter):
My real question is this, though: how can AF offer bus service between YOW and YUL? I know it's not actual air service, but it effectively allows them to sell tickets YOW-CDG, which would violate the bilateral agreement. I suppose it's okay for KL since they have route authority to YOW, but I don't understand the situation with AF.

I am pretty sure some type of exemption is made for this because it's not actual air travel although it is in the system as a sector.

Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter):
Lastly, are there similar situations elsewhere? This is the only case I've heard of where airlines operate their own bus service. I'm assuming they charter the buses from a third party, but if not, I'd be even more surprised that they consider such a service worthwhile.

The "Capital Express" YUL-Ottawa has a sister route which is YUL-Quebec City. QR also have a pretty comprehensive deal with the SNCF in France allowing them to pool passenger from all over France to Paris to get get on QR flights. I believe that a number of destinations in France served by the SNCF have QR codes.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7):
Isn't YOW big enough to support AF CDG-YOW flights?

I am not so sure. I'm pretty confident that if the market was there somebody would have jumped on it already. Given that the demand is not that high YOW's proximity to YUL hurts Ottawa because a 2 hour drive within the same country (I'm sure there is a separatist joke in there somewhere) is really not too bad to get direct service to CDG. It's take me almost an hour to get to YYZ from where I live in Toronto...

Quoting AH332 (Reply 8):
Being born and raised in Ottawa, I used to head to YOW by bus (OC Transpo), and just watch all the activity going on.

Wow that's commitment!  Smile

Quoting AH332 (Reply 8):
I would love to see YOW get more direct international service from other airline. I believe the demand is there.

There is indeed demand and YOW seems to really be getting its act together. The same can be said for a number of airlines operating out of there. You can now (or soon) fly direct to FRA and LAS on AC which would have been unthinkable not that long ago. Give it time  Smile

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2253 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9404 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 11):
There is indeed demand and YOW seems to really be getting its act together

You can say that again

AC to FRA on June 1st, 2008.

Meanwhile, they have already started new flights to LAS and YYT.

Jazz started daily flights to YQM and YFC.

AC will start seasonal service to Montego Bay and Cancun on December 22nd.

All in all, not too bad for an airport of 3.5 million passengers annually !

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineAlespesl From Czech Republic, joined Jan 2004, 582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9344 times:

CSA Czech Airlines also operates bus service between PRG and Brno, second largerst city in Czech Republic.

There are two flights a day from PRG to Brno and 3 or 4 daily bus runs. Once can collect FFP also for the bus service.

There is also Bus service operated by Czech Airlines between Kosice KSC and Poprad-Tatry TAT in Slovakia. This is 2 x a day service.



Next Flight: Oct 10: PRG-MUC-KIV EMB 195/CRJ 900, Oct 12: KIV-MUC-PRG CRJ900/EMB 195 wiht Lufthansa
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9284 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 11):
Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter):
My real question is this, though: how can AF offer bus service between YOW and YUL? I know it's not actual air service, but it effectively allows them to sell tickets YOW-CDG, which would violate the bilateral agreement. I suppose it's okay for KL since they have route authority to YOW, but I don't understand the situation with AF.

I am pretty sure some type of exemption is made for this because it's not actual air travel although it is in the system as a sector.

You can be certain that if it wasn't permitted, AC would have complained long ago and the government would have ordered AF to stop the bus service. I don't there are any restrictions on ground transportation service. If AF wanted to give away free bus tickets from YUL or YYZ to YVR, I'm sure they could. It's really no different than a connecting service YOW-YUL-CDG using AC on the YOW-YUL sector which AF also sells, except in this case insted of putting the passenger on a bus operated by another company they put the passenger on a bus.


User currently offlineTRVYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9253 times:

I remember flying from India to YYZ and it had a sector through road. The routing was TRV-SHJ-DXB-AMS-YYZ
The TRV-SHJ was by IC and SHJ-DXB- was a taxi rented by IC and as obvious DXB-AMS-YYZ was by KL.
So, the road journey was not for the origin or destination but in the middle of the journey. I wonder if such routing still exists. I had to do international check-in twice(ie, all luggage) as opposed to what my travel agent said.

So, for the above bus KL/AF don't they have customs/immig at YUL. When they get out of the bus do they have to go into the terminal @ YOW?


User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9204 times:



Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 15):
So, for the above bus KL/AF don't they have customs/immig at YUL. When they get out of the bus do they have to go into the terminal @ YOW?

It actually arrives and departs from the train station in Ottawa. The IATA code is XDS.


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9150 times:



Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 15):
So, for the above bus KL/AF don't they have customs/immig at YUL. When they get out of the bus do they have to go into the terminal @ YOW?

Pax going to YOW must clear immigration and customs at YUL


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4845 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9055 times:



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 16):
It actually arrives and departs from the train station in Ottawa. The IATA code is XDS.

Really? I know it was for the longest time, after all I took it many times, but the last two times my parents have left Ottawa they have taken the KL bus to YUL from the bus station on Catherine street.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8998 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 18):
Really? I know it was for the longest time, after all I took it many times, but the last two times my parents have left Ottawa they have taken the KL bus to YUL from the bus station on Catherine street.

YOWza

I guess it could be. I know it's still coded as the train station though.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3153 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8947 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7):
Isn't YOW big enough to support AF CDG-YOW flights?

I wonder what route would have the best chances: YOW-CDG or YOW-AMS. There often seems to be a relatively high air travel demand between the Netherlands and Canada, which would give YOW-AMS a chance; on the other hand, Paris generates a lot of demand to virtually any place in the world.


User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2153 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8874 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 18):
Really? I know it was for the longest time, after all I took it many times, but the last two times my parents have left Ottawa they have taken the KL bus to YUL from the bus station on Catherine street.

I'm not sure about LX or KL but AF recently changed their service from the bus station to the VIA station. I'm certainly not complaining it is easier to get from VIA station to downtown Ottawa than from the bus station.



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