Jamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 764 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8457 times:
Does anyone know how busy the buses for AF and KLM between YOW and YUL are? Now that AF/KLM are a single airline, I wonder if they might use a single bus between them (or maybe KLM would like to start service to YOW ).
My real question is this, though: how can AF offer bus service between YOW and YUL? I know it's not actual air service, but it effectively allows them to sell tickets YOW-CDG, which would violate the bilateral agreement. I suppose it's okay for KL since they have route authority to YOW, but I don't understand the situation with AF.
Lastly, are there similar situations elsewhere? This is the only case I've heard of where airlines operate their own bus service. I'm assuming they charter the buses from a third party, but if not, I'd be even more surprised that they consider such a service worthwhile.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8378 times:
Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter): Lastly, are there similar situations elsewhere? This is the only case I've heard of where airlines operate their own bus service. I'm assuming they charter the buses from a third party, but if not, I'd be even more surprised that they consider such a service worthwhile.
LH opereate bus service between several points in Germany, Austria and France and their nearest major airport in Germany. I think the buses are operated by other companies but they are in LH livery. http://www.lufthansa-airportbus.com/
There are some similar arrangements in other countries.
For several years starting in the 1980s LH had an agreement with the German railway to operate private trains painted in LH livery to carry connecting passengers between FRA airport and DUS/CGN/Bonn. Some history/photos of that operation here: http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ny8h-ky/db-page/elh-exp.htm
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1): LH opereate bus service between several points in Germany, Austria and France and their nearest major airport in Germany. I think the buses are operated by other companies but they are in LH livery.
Similarly SN Brussels have a bus service from BRU to the centre of ANR.
TGVAIR or Thalyss International (to Brussels) are available through AF for connections too.
Cedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7702 posts, RR: 55 Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8206 times:
Etihad sell what is basically a connecting flight to Dubai, if you put London to Dubai into Expedia or whatever, an Etihad option comes up straight away, which is LHR-AUH-DXB and the second leg is a bus that drives the 60 miles along the highway between Abu Dhabi and Dubai. (Worth noting that LH fly AUH-DXB with the 747, definitely the shortest 747 flight in the world right now.)
In fact the Etihad bus is great, it runs every 15 mins or so, its basically free even if you dont buy a ticket. I have used it when flying in the region eg EY from London to AUH then IRB from DXB to THR.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
AH332 From Algeria, joined Mar 2007, 276 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7971 times:
Hi,
Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7): Isn't YOW big enough to support AF CDG-YOW flights?
Grant that I think AF doesn't have B757 and their A319 may not make it transatlantic.
Being born and raised in Ottawa, I used to head to YOW by bus (OC Transpo), and just watch all the activity going on. It was a shame there were never any heavies except AC 763s that used to fly to LHR and some shuttle flights.
I would love to see YOW get more direct international service from other airline. I believe the demand is there. Many immigrants in Ottawa that were always forced to go through YUL or YYZ to get to their homelands (Like with my family and flights to ALG). AF or LH with their connections worldwide could probably make the route work. Either that or i'm just dreaming for the day!
Cheers,
Imad
Bledi Heya Al Djazaeer! // Next Flights: AB MIA-DUS-ORY, AF ORY-MRS-ALG
Jamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 764 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7889 times:
Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7): Isn't YOW big enough to support AF CDG-YOW flights?
Grant that I think AF doesn't have B757 and their A319 may not make it transatlantic.
I definitely think that such a route could work, and with open skies, I believe AF may consider it. Between AF and KL, they operate three daily buses with a capacity of roughly 150 people. Based on that, I imagine YOW could easily support an A332. Unfortunately, presently AF is only allowed to fly into YUL and YYZ, which makes the bus between YOW and YUL rather peculiar, since they are effectively selling tickets YOW-CDG, which isn't allowed, to my understanding.
Thanks for the responses, it seems airlines running buses are far more common than I realized.
Jamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 764 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7887 times:
Quoting AH332 (Reply 8): I would love to see YOW get more direct international service from other airline. I believe the demand is there. Many immigrants in Ottawa that were always forced to go through YUL or YYZ to get to their homelands (Like with my family and flights to ALG). AF or LH with their connections worldwide could probably make the route work. Either that or i'm just dreaming for the day! Smile
AC will be starting YOW-FRA next summer on a 763, so YOW will go up to two daily departures to Europe.
YOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4781 posts, RR: 17 Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7833 times:
Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter): Does anyone know how busy the buses for AF and KLM between YOW and YUL are? Now that AF/KLM are a single airline, I wonder if they might use a single bus between them (or maybe KLM would like to start service to YOW Yeah sure).
I don't think this will ever come to be. Frankly it would cause more problems for the agent doing the check-in in Ottawa who typically has batches of boarding passes preprinted. The amount of coordination would not be worth it. On top of this since the buses are branded with KL and AF logos it keep both brands in the public eye in Ottawa, albeit to a limited extent.
Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter): My real question is this, though: how can AF offer bus service between YOW and YUL? I know it's not actual air service, but it effectively allows them to sell tickets YOW-CDG, which would violate the bilateral agreement. I suppose it's okay for KL since they have route authority to YOW, but I don't understand the situation with AF.
I am pretty sure some type of exemption is made for this because it's not actual air travel although it is in the system as a sector.
Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter): Lastly, are there similar situations elsewhere? This is the only case I've heard of where airlines operate their own bus service. I'm assuming they charter the buses from a third party, but if not, I'd be even more surprised that they consider such a service worthwhile.
The "Capital Express" YUL-Ottawa has a sister route which is YUL-Quebec City. QR also have a pretty comprehensive deal with the SNCF in France allowing them to pool passenger from all over France to Paris to get get on QR flights. I believe that a number of destinations in France served by the SNCF have QR codes.
Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7): Isn't YOW big enough to support AF CDG-YOW flights?
I am not so sure. I'm pretty confident that if the market was there somebody would have jumped on it already. Given that the demand is not that high YOW's proximity to YUL hurts Ottawa because a 2 hour drive within the same country (I'm sure there is a separatist joke in there somewhere) is really not too bad to get direct service to CDG. It's take me almost an hour to get to YYZ from where I live in Toronto...
Quoting AH332 (Reply 8): Being born and raised in Ottawa, I used to head to YOW by bus (OC Transpo), and just watch all the activity going on.
Wow that's commitment!
Quoting AH332 (Reply 8): I would love to see YOW get more direct international service from other airline. I believe the demand is there.
There is indeed demand and YOW seems to really be getting its act together. The same can be said for a number of airlines operating out of there. You can now (or soon) fly direct to FRA and LAS on AC which would have been unthinkable not that long ago. Give it time
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7485 times:
Quoting YOWza (Reply 11): Quoting Jamincan (Thread starter):
My real question is this, though: how can AF offer bus service between YOW and YUL? I know it's not actual air service, but it effectively allows them to sell tickets YOW-CDG, which would violate the bilateral agreement. I suppose it's okay for KL since they have route authority to YOW, but I don't understand the situation with AF.
I am pretty sure some type of exemption is made for this because it's not actual air travel although it is in the system as a sector.
You can be certain that if it wasn't permitted, AC would have complained long ago and the government would have ordered AF to stop the bus service. I don't there are any restrictions on ground transportation service. If AF wanted to give away free bus tickets from YUL or YYZ to YVR, I'm sure they could. It's really no different than a connecting service YOW-YUL-CDG using AC on the YOW-YUL sector which AF also sells, except in this case insted of putting the passenger on a bus operated by another company they put the passenger on a bus.
TRVYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1311 posts, RR: 11 Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7454 times:
I remember flying from India to YYZ and it had a sector through road. The routing was TRV-SHJ-DXB-AMS-YYZ
The TRV-SHJ was by IC and SHJ-DXB- was a taxi rented by IC and as obvious DXB-AMS-YYZ was by KL.
So, the road journey was not for the origin or destination but in the middle of the journey. I wonder if such routing still exists. I had to do international check-in twice(ie, all luggage) as opposed to what my travel agent said.
So, for the above bus KL/AF don't they have customs/immig at YUL. When they get out of the bus do they have to go into the terminal @ YOW?
Jamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 764 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7405 times:
Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 15): So, for the above bus KL/AF don't they have customs/immig at YUL. When they get out of the bus do they have to go into the terminal @ YOW?
It actually arrives and departs from the train station in Ottawa. The IATA code is XDS.
Goldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1672 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7351 times:
Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 15): So, for the above bus KL/AF don't they have customs/immig at YUL. When they get out of the bus do they have to go into the terminal @ YOW?
Pax going to YOW must clear immigration and customs at YUL
YOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4781 posts, RR: 17 Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7256 times:
Quoting Jamincan (Reply 16): It actually arrives and departs from the train station in Ottawa. The IATA code is XDS.
Really? I know it was for the longest time, after all I took it many times, but the last two times my parents have left Ottawa they have taken the KL bus to YUL from the bus station on Catherine street.
Jamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 764 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7199 times:
Quoting YOWza (Reply 18): Really? I know it was for the longest time, after all I took it many times, but the last two times my parents have left Ottawa they have taken the KL bus to YUL from the bus station on Catherine street.
YOWza
I guess it could be. I know it's still coded as the train station though.
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7148 times:
Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 7): Isn't YOW big enough to support AF CDG-YOW flights?
I wonder what route would have the best chances: YOW-CDG or YOW-AMS. There often seems to be a relatively high air travel demand between the Netherlands and Canada, which would give YOW-AMS a chance; on the other hand, Paris generates a lot of demand to virtually any place in the world.
Runway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2037 posts, RR: 39 Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7075 times:
Quoting YOWza (Reply 18): Really? I know it was for the longest time, after all I took it many times, but the last two times my parents have left Ottawa they have taken the KL bus to YUL from the bus station on Catherine street.
I'm not sure about LX or KL but AF recently changed their service from the bus station to the VIA station. I'm certainly not complaining it is easier to get from VIA station to downtown Ottawa than from the bus station.
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