UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6647 times:
With the new High Speed line now opened between St Pancras and Gar Du Nord, I wonder what the percentage of O & D traffic is now between LHR and CDG and vice versa?
Why would you want to go through all the aggro of getting to the airport so far in advance, go through the pain of security, then at the other end have the hassle of getting in to Paris, when you can sit back and relax on the train. Unless there is alot of connecting traffic, I would not be surprised if AF and for that matter BA, scale back even further in the near future.
Edina From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 714 posts, RR: 10 Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6553 times:
The bulk of AF LHR-CDG flights are currently operated by A318/319/320 with 2/12 being on an A321 whilst next summer will have most flights on A321s, so a considerable reduction in frequency, but not in capacity.
Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
LHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6250 times:
And to coincide, BA will be operating 11 roundtrips Monday to Friday, 8 roundtrips on Saturday and 10 roundtrips on Sundays between LHR and CDG, all scheduled to be operated by Airbus A319's. Although several will switch to A321's to match capacity demand.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 24929 posts, RR: 60 Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6189 times:
Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5): With the new High Speed line now opened between St Pancras and Gar Du Nord, I wonder what the percentage of O & D traffic is now between LHR and CDG and vice versa?
Why would you want to go through all the aggro of getting to the airport so far in advance, go through the pain of security, then at the other end have the hassle of getting in to Paris, when you can sit back and relax on the train.
Exactly . I see once more and more rail routes open up flights under 600 miles will be hard hit even more. The LHR-CDG flights will eventually be mostly transit at CDG Hub. I wonder if they will ever run a service St Pancras to CDG to connect to AF!!!
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
Farnborough24 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 167 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6122 times:
Agree with all the comments regarding the Eurostar-I think if you were an O&D passenger you would have to be mad, or have been offered a very, very cheap airfare, to fly over the train. It's now something like 2 hours 45 mins, if that, from central London to Paris on the train. There is simply no way from city centre to city centre that flying will beat that. I think that as high speed train lines become more common, possibly with greater development of maglev technology over the next 20 or so years, short distance flights (ie. under 800 miles) between major European cities will suffer more and more, and will become purely feeder flights. Don't get me wrong, I love to fly, but Eurostar, and any similarly easy and quick service between other major cities, wins every time for me.
Having said all that, I am pleased about that really, because it will free up slots for more long haul operations, which let's face it are miles more interesting anyway.
B747forever From United States of America, joined May 2007, 16575 posts, RR: 11 Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6114 times:
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 3): A slot for AF LHR-LAX perchance?
Cloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2425 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6033 times:
Without a doubt there are going to be an additional 5 pairs of transatlantics in S08, wherever they go. Any decrease in shorthaul flights from this point onwards by any carrier is more than likely to become additional transatlantics on a flight for flight basis.
Heathrow transatlantics are going to be a bloodbath in S08. Yield will be next to nothing almost for sure. It's more interesting to see who will be the first to drop out rather than where the first lot of additional flights are going. Not necessarily the new entrants or the locals but the likes of Air India to JFK and Air NZ to LAX might be worst hit.
Also interesting is the sort of impact to Heathrow as a transit hub with the cut in shorthaul flights to make room for the additional tranatlantics.
B747forever From United States of America, joined May 2007, 16575 posts, RR: 11 Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6021 times:
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4092 posts, RR: 18 Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 5947 times:
Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10): short distance flights (ie. under 800 miles) between major European cities will suffer more and more, and will become purely feeder flights
That has already been taking place for over a decade, and has less to do with expanded train services than it does with the stimulation of an added number of ex-Europe longhaul gateways.
Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 12): Not necessarily the new entrants or the locals but the likes of Air India to JFK and Air NZ to LAX might be worst hit.
I beg to differ here. AI and NZ have sizeable thru-traffic flows, and ability to closely fluctuate capacity with demand. Furthermore, they run more cheaply than their competitors. IMHO, the airlines facing the biggest threat are Euro legacies, for reasons I articulated in other threads.
RedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2053 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5832 times:
Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10): I think if you were an O&D passenger you would have to be mad, or have been offered a very, very cheap airfare, to fly over the train.
... or be an a.nutter with a zeal to improve your A319 statistics... ?
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, RR: 24 Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5699 times:
Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 12): Without a doubt there are going to be an additional 5 pairs of transatlantics in S08, wherever they go. Any decrease in shorthaul flights from this point onwards by any carrier is more than likely to become additional transatlantics on a flight for flight basis.
KL also has 4 underutilized LHR slots currently used by what I believe are the only turboprop scheduled flights at LHR, KL's twice-daily LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN service with Fokker 50s. I expect those routes are likely to be dropped as soon as they need the slots for longhaul services.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5683 times:
Almost all frequencies are A321s starting next year. What sized planes do they use now?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Jouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 446 posts, RR: 11 Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5648 times:
Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10): There is simply no way from city centre to city centre that flying will beat that.
Well, I live outside Paris and need more time to reach Gare du Nord than Roissy. On the UK side, my meetings are in Hounslow and Uxbridge, so flying is and will continue to be the best option. The decrease of AF flights between LHR and CDG simply means that I will move a greater share of my flights to BA.
Cloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2425 posts, RR: 9 Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5450 times:
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 14): I beg to differ here. AI and NZ have sizeable thru-traffic flows, and ability to closely fluctuate capacity with demand. Furthermore, they run more cheaply than their competitors. IMHO, the airlines facing the biggest threat are Euro legacies, for reasons I articulated in other threads.
Yes the there is a through traffic component but what the 5th freedom traffic helps prop up these routes significantly. There are other examples
- All of Singapore's transpac services stop somewhere in Asia picking up passengers. When you compare that to the few direct services they offer, it's quite obvious where the money is.
- Thai is putting the stop back after experimenting with direct services.
- Cathay's JFK via YVR is doing very well. So well they have not stopped it after they started their 2 direct JFKs.
B747forever From United States of America, joined May 2007, 16575 posts, RR: 11 Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5052 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16): I believe are the only turboprop scheduled flights at LHR,
That is true, and I am sure that EIN and RTM will lose their service to LHR, in favour for long-haul flights.
Boysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 876 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4939 times:
Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10): Agree with all the comments regarding the Eurostar-I think if you were an O&D passenger you would have to be mad, or have been offered a very, very cheap airfare, to fly over the train. It's now something like 2 hours 45 mins, if that, from central London to Paris on the train
London to Paris is 2h15mins by rail actually, and 1h51mins London to Brussels.
Aisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 757 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4550 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16): KL also has 4 underutilized LHR slots currently used by what I believe are the only turboprop scheduled flights at LHR, KL's twice-daily LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN service with Fokker 50s. I expect those routes are likely to be dropped as soon as they need the slots for longhaul services.
The AF-KLM group has several slots at LHR. 12 for CDG services, 3 for RTM, 3 for EIN and 9 for AMS. Given Eurostar travel times will improve and new operators arrive at LHR next year, the AF-KLM group have put all slots in a basket and hand-picked 'em out one by one to create this schedule. Some of these flights don't have the same take-off and land times than current AF services. It could be better, but I guess it's all they can achieve with currents slots to match future needs (feed the CDG and AMS hubs and launch new TATL services: LAX, ATL(DL), JFK(DL)... any word on DTW?)
Quoting CDG" class=quote target=_blank>CDG (Thread starter): Air France has unveiled the new Paris CDG - London Heathrow schedule for Summer 2008, which is being reduced from 12 to 7 daily flights.
Rearranging the flights like this, we can get ?valuable? information:
(*Given flight numbers these two flight could actually be swapped, but I don't find any logic in forcing a 55 turn arround to let the other 320 stopped at LHR for 12+ hours)
The pro of this new schedule is of course the free slots for new TATL service but it has a very big con... LOOOOONG turn-arround times.
There's only one flight returning at CDG using under 2 hours of ground time at LHR. Also the 2 latter flights seem odd. If these two planes are going to overnight at LHR, why do they send them to LHR so early? I though late LHR arrival slots were relatively easy to get.
25 HB-IWC: The reason is to be found in AF's trying to establish optimal connectivity into and out of its longhaul departure and arrival banks, which is one of
26 Theginge: There have to be long turnarounds late in the evening to facilitate having an aircraft at LHR ready for the first departure the next day. Late arriva
27 VV701: Although quite a lot of people live in central Paris the number living in central London is limited. Recognising that even business travellers on the
28 Runway23: Also important to note that AF's current flights to LHR are often delayed. With a two hour + turn around versus 1hr right now you establish an operat
29 Albird87: I dont see why NZ will be hard put by this route. BA and VS have a lot of services on this route already. Why AF will push NZ more i dont see it happ
30 Eghansen: Certainly on the LAX-LHR route, the competition is going to be fierce. It is already a bargain route during the winter months ($550) in October, Nove
31 C010T3: Couldn't they shift RTM and EIN services from LHR to LCY? Actually, how is the situation at LCY? Could we see more flights there? It wouldn't have a
32 Humberside: LCY has reached the limit of flights it's allowed. AFAIK theres a planning application to increase the limit, but it's full at peak times. Shoulder p
34 Hardiwv: Correct. But the problem is that flights from LCY are mostly to ORY and not CDG. Also AF could deploy bigger regional aircraft on the route to maximi
35 Nzrich: Air NZ will still do very well on this route as it can fill the plane with AKL-LHR-AKL passengers as well .. Air NZ is good on that route for star it
36 Runway23: Although the flight will receive feed from delta's hub in LAX. Of course the main problem there is that DL are at T5 whilst AF are with KL/NW at T2.
37 Skyteam2000: A Steward from AF told me that AF will do: LHR-LAX-LHR-JFK-LHR Delta will take some slots at LHR and DL LYS-JFK and ORY-JFK.
38 Runway23: The steward isn't quite accurate. The entire skyteam plan for Heathrow-USA is: LHR-LAX will be operated by Air France (Flights 60/61) LHR-JFK operate
39 B747forever: How do you know the flight number??? I cant see that AF have load their LHR-LAX flight.
40 Yak97: These flights I believe are related to big corporate customers (Shell / Philips) so may not be so easy to drop.
41 MAH4546: Sure they will. End the corporate travel contracts, and drop them to use the slots on potentially more profitable flights. Unless for some odd reason
42 ANother: Well - KL S08 skeds appear to be loaded showing 3xday (except Sunday 2x) on RTM-LHR and 2xday (except Sa/Su - no flights) for EIN. The slot pairings
43 Aisak: When T5 opens all BA shorthaul from T4 will go there. Only a month later all BA longhaul will go away except LHR-SIN, LHR-SIN-SYD and LHR-BKK-SYD, so
44 N1120A: Small point. It is spelled Gare Du Nord It was fast even without the CTRL. It is significantly less than that, as noted above. Not particularly. NZ p
46 Cricket: AI DEL-LHR-JFK and BOM-LHR-JFK still continue to be the airlines premier flights. AI has flights stopping at both CDG and FRA and makes money on TATL
47 Jouy31: My choice as a passenger who can use flexible tickets, when faced with a decrease of flights by almost 50%. There are also a number of people besides
48 Zkojh: wait till BD finally start their flights from LHR to the US in 09 , it will be a very busy market,
49 Eghansen: No doubt. ANZ will always fly into LHR no matter what. And if they don't fly through LAX or HKG, what else is there? SCL? They will stay no matter wh
50 Runway23: I never said it was Delta's fault, I was merely describing the current situation. I challenge you to go through any of my posts here and find somethi
51 Yak97: According to todays UK Daily Telegraph QUOTE Pieter Elbers, KLM's network chief, said the joint venture's transatlantic services had grown by 40pc in
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