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Tarom: Unusual Fleet  
User currently offlineKochamLOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 295 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4516 times:

I have wondered why Tarom, one of the more cash stranded airlines, have purchased the airbus a318. This brings up many questions. Why would they buy an airbus after having mostly 737s and having purchased the 7377? Also, I have heard that compared to other aircraft, the A318 is not as efficient as say an Embraer 190/195. Why havent they gotten rid of their a310s instead of purchase a318s. Why dont they switch the 310s to 763s which are way more efficient and could possibly bring greater distanced cities in range? So they operate inefficient 310s, they operate a handful of 737s but bought the a318 which is compartively not efficient? Does anyone know something I dont....thatd be great because I dont really have an idea.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

I will almost copy/paste one of my old posts, on the same subject.


I wasn't there but I think the following scenery happened :


2002 :
NATO (USA) : -hey romanian folks, how are ya doing, your geostrategical position has became interesting for us since last year !
Romanian politicians : -we are humbly full of happiness to know that !
USA : -you tried to join NATO several years ago (1997), but you didn't meet any criteria. Did you improve something since then ?
Romanians : no sir, we didn't. But tell us your wish and it will be granted.
USA : -well ok then, we take your X, Y and Z airbases for free, you prepare your military to follow us somewhere in the desert soon, sign up the juridical non-responsability of our citizens on your territory treaty and last, buy some cheap 737NG at 150% of the list price, they are nice aircrafts.
Romanians : but sir, we are hoping to join EU, it would be risky for us to buy those perfect airplanes ! We bet the phone will call soon for us to buy some goods from EU.
USA : -we don't mind if you do so, but we think that finally, there is no hurry for you to join NATO ...
Romanians : -please forgive us, would you mind to tell us how many airplanes would our fleet buy from you ?

......................


2005 :
UE (politicians) : -hallo romanian folks, are you ready to join EU ?
Romanian politicians : -hello sirs, we cannot wait to join !
EU : did you do your homework, according to the treaty we signed ?
Romanians : -you know time was so short, how could we improve such amount of things basically overnight ?
EU : well well well, so you don't qualify to join ...
Romanians : -we are a little late and we apologize, but if you have a wish, don't hesitate to tell us ...
EU : -okay, let's find a compromise. You will have to sell your X, Y, Z industry to some eminent EU corporations, buy second-hand obsolete weaponry at dumb price (coz we already tested them for you) then sign for some great (and expensive) infrastructure work with our brilliant EU industrials without bid. Oh, we almost forgot, we bet you don't have enough airplanes, don't you ?
Romanians : -errr you know, we just ordered some 737NG, now we have enough airplanes to fly our small network. We don't need other planes, especially if they are different with our fleet.
EU : -then we are so sorry to announce you that we cannot accept new members who don't meet basic criteria ...
Romanians : -no, wait a minute, we just had a look again at our fleet and found that we urgently need some A319 !!
EU : -hmmm the A319 is selling like crazy right now, sorry but we cannot provide you that model. But we are willing to give you a much better version, the A318, at only the double of the A319 cost. You'll see, in few years you will come back to get some more.
Romanians : 4 is enough for starting ?
EU : welcome to EU dears romanians !


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4336 times:



Quoting KochamLOT (Thread starter):
Why dont they switch the 310s to 763s which are way more efficient

First, they are not "way more" efficient, if at all.

Quoting KochamLOT (Thread starter):
and could possibly bring greater distanced cities in range?

Because the range of the A310s is more than enough for the routes they currently fly.

Quoting KochamLOT (Thread starter):
one of the more cash stranded airlines

Guess what, they actually make a profit...



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineA300 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4266 times:
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Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 1):
I wasn't there but I think the following scenery happened

Very funny and probably true! Turkish government also has to keep the masters in both Brussels and Washington. They, too, have a mixed and duplicated fleet.



Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
User currently offlineConnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4215 times:



Quoting KochamLOT (Thread starter):

Just to briefly respond to your many questions about Tarom. Tarom Romanian is a state owned airline driven by politicians. These days It's not that cash strapped as many would tend to believe, it's pretty much on black but with marginal profits, mainly due to significant increase on ethnic and business traffic. Financially that's probably the outermost they would ever accomplished given the ownership limitations and the relentless competition steaming from all the other EU's based airlines including low-cost. Without privatization, its growth will be capped at virtually what you see today in terms of profits fleet and destinations. By not being part of a major alliance and not even conveniently cover all 17 Romanian domestic destination Tarom will shrink its market reach and usefulness to Romanians and others...


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Interested and delighted to see the re-introduction of the A310 after storage. The A318 does seem a strange choice but I think like Turket, Romania wants in the EU!!!

I wonder if we will see Tarom serve any European destinations from Constanta or Timisoara, please!!!


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

Since Romania is member of both EU and NATO now they could offload one of the narrowbody families on the 2nd hand market. They both have great resale values.

Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
Because the range of the A310s is more than enough for the routes they currently fly.

Thanks goodness they use it only on routes there the range is sufficient  flamed 

But the 763ER should provide enough range for flights to the US east coast.

Cheers

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Didnt Tarom do a Bucharest-Timisoara-JFK with the 310-300???

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3845 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 5):
but I think like Turket, Romania wants in the EU

Romania has been an EU member since January 1, 2007. Bulgaria joined at the same time.


User currently offlineKochamLOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3770 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
Because the range of the A310s is more than enough for the routes they currently fly.

What tey currently fly may NOT include the places to which they WISH to fly...geez!

Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
Guess what, they actually make a profit...

wouldnt they make a greater profit if their fleet was more uniform with crew that is able to fly a basic type of aircraft.

Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
First, they are not "way more" efficient, if at all.

Please find for me where it is reported that the A310 is more efficient than the 767300. Why are there so many more 767s than a310s flying today...please do come up with a creative answer.

And so the story goes Tarom has a crazy mismatching fleet due to EU and Nato interests... Thanks guys.


User currently offlineSteph001 From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 315 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3663 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 7):
Didnt Tarom do a Bucharest-Timisoara-JFK with the 310-300???

Yes they did, but for a very short time. The A310 was aquired about 15 years ago and was meant to be Tarom's long range aircarft. One of the routes where they were used was OTP-JFK where the A310-325 performed at its range limits. This is one of the reasons why RO had planned some stops on this route, in some years this stops were at TSR, in other years at LUX and there were also other


User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3615 times:
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Quoting KochamLOT (Thread starter):
Why havent they gotten rid of their a310s instead of purchase a318s. Why dont they switch the 310s to 763s which are way more efficient and could possibly bring greater distanced cities in range?

The routes served by the Airbus A310-300 (TLV, LHR) and BCN, MAD and VLC (seasonal) are enough for this airline.

Boeing 767-300 could be a great choice for the Romanian airline if ever decide to start again long haul flights.

Regards,

Gerard



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3420 times:

on't you think that changing from the A310 to the 767 is the same as changing from the 737 to the A318?

Quoting KochamLOT (Thread starter):
Why would they buy an airbus after having mostly 737s and having purchased the 7377?



Quoting KochamLOT (Thread starter):
Why dont they switch the 310s to 763s

Don't you think that changing from the A310 to the 767 is the same as changing from the 737 to the A318?
You say they have no money to replace the fleet. So why get 767???


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7929 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3151 times:

The TSR stop wasnt purely a tech stop, although more political than commercial, like EIs stops in Shannon. Reason I think so is cos Tarom used to fly 707s across the pond, and they routed OTP-TSR-AMS-JFK and OTP-TSR-AMS-ORD. AMS-ORD was the last scheduled 707 across the pond, ending in 93 or 94. The point being, if they were tech stopping in AMS anyway, there was no technical need for the stop in TSR. Not to say, as above, that it was purely commercial either.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3047 times:



Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 9):
What tey currently fly may NOT include the places to which they WISH to fly...geez!

Geez...they stopped flying longhauls for a reason: They didn't make money!
If they should decide to re-renter that market, 787s are most likely, IMO.

Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 9):
wouldnt they make a greater profit if their fleet was more uniform with crew that is able to fly a basic type of aircraft.

Maybe, maybe not.

Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 9):
Please find for me where it is reported that the A310 is more efficient than the 767300.

Where did I say that? If you can't fill the 763, the A310 is indeed more efficient, because it's lighter.
Plus, the 767 has a crappy cargo hold.

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 12):
You say they have no money to replace the fleet. So why get 767???

 checkmark  Their aircraft are owned. That's another reason for keeping them.

Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 9):
Why are there so many more 767s than a310s flying today...please do come up with a creative answer.

I don't have a creative answer.
I have an answer that's based on facts.
Only the 767-200 directly competed with the A310. The 767-300 competed with the A300, and later with the A330-200.
Do the math for yourself.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7027 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2935 times:



Quoting KochamLOT (Thread starter):
Why dont they switch the 310s to 763s which are way more efficient and could possibly bring greater distanced cities in range?

Maybe because of the cargo capability of the A310 ? Just a guess since I have no idea about Tarom

Quoting KochamLOT (Thread starter):
Why would they buy an airbus after having mostly 737s and having purchased the 7377?

Maybe they plan to switch to the A32x family and the A318 was the first step.

Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 9):
What tey currently fly may NOT include the places to which they WISH to fly...geez!

If they would wish to fly there they could have bought/leased the equipment to fly these routes. How do you know what routes they wish to fly.

Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 9):
hy are there so many more 767s than a310s flying today...please do come up with a creative answer.

Because the A300/A310 has been widely replaced with the far more advanced A330 and airlines stopped buying the older generation Airbus aircraft in favor for the A330/A340 family. Also the 767 has been bought in higher number by airlines like DL, UA, AA etc

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 11):
Boeing 767-300 could be a great choice for the Romanian airline if ever decide to start again long haul flight

Agreed but also the A332, A350 and 787 come to my mind.

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
If they should decide to re-renter that market, 787s are most likely, IMO.

I agree but the A350-800 might have a chance, too, if they will fly longhaul again.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineConnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2530 times:



Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 13):
The TSR stop wasnt purely a tech stop

Right. At least half of the passenger loads bound for JFK were from Western Romania boarding the aircraft at Timisoara.

These days Tarom is giving a consideration to the B738. Possibly to buy or lease between two and four of the aircraft type


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2436 times:

Why 738? They already have the 318 and 737-7 for European routes and the 738 will have no more range. The A310s have not been back in service long, for some reason Tarom 'mothballed' these for many years, now they realise they are useful.

User currently offlineKochamLOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2411 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
I have an answer that's based on facts.

I just asked a question and looked for a few answers/thoughts, not an attitude. You say things and say their fact whic I respect.
I am NOT an airline exec that has ' all the facts', I just read around in magazines and on this forum and throw some questions out. Take it easy.
I just wondered if Tarom would feel limited by the A310 range and why they have such an unusual fleet. Instead of beating my question down, other people gave me answers and things to think about. thanks other people


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2213 times:



Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 18):
I just asked a question and looked for a few answers/thoughts, not an attitude.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it was me who started.

Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 9):
What tey currently fly may NOT include the places to which they WISH to fly...geez!



Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 9):
please do come up with a creative answer.




Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineCyba From Cape Verde, joined Nov 2005, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

The reason they are using the 310s is clear: They already had them, they were fully depreciated. They were in fact sitting on the tarmac for 2-3 years since they discontinued their JFK flights so when they were looking for new capacity to grow,they had the option of (1) going to the market fo buy or least new frames or (2) make a minimal investment to recondition planes that they already had. I guess they opted for #2. Discussion about 767s is irrelevant in this context

Regarding the 318s I agree there was probably pressure to buy European. However their 737s are quite old and tatty looking and will probably need to be repalced themselves before too long - wouldn't be surprised if they're repalced with Airbuses given that they opted for the 320 family.

I was surprised that there are 4 318s in the fleet already. That, together with the re-introduced 310s is quite some increase in capacity. Hope they are going well.


User currently offlineTKfan From Turkey, joined Oct 2007, 650 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2061 times:



Quoting A300 (Reply 3):
Very funny and probably true! Turkish government also has to keep the masters in both Brussels and Washington. They, too, have a mixed and duplicated fleet.



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 5):
The A318 does seem a strange choice but I think like Turket, Romania wants in the EU!!!

Its getting annoying to look for a political reason of Turkish Airlines fleet orders.
Currently they are operating a fleet of 31 A319/320/321 and 52 B734/B738. Though none can be considered as a small subfleet.

Quoting Cyba (Reply 20):
I was surprised that there are 4 318s in the fleet already. That, together with the re-introduced 310s is quite some increase in capacity. Hope they are going well.

RO is doing quite good, having the highest growing rate out of the AEA Airlines* in the first nine month +32.3%, while their LF jumped by 7.1 pts to 69.2 %.


*49.0% for SN due to merger with Virgin Express


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1959 times:



Quoting TKfan (Reply 21):
Its getting annoying to look for a political reason of Turkish Airlines fleet orders.

Welcome to a.net,
Just look at LH for starters; trying to operate a mixed and duplicated fleet; 60+ each of 737 and 319/20/21.


User currently offlineSteph001 From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 315 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1694 times:



Quoting Cyba (Reply 20):
Regarding the 318s I agree there was probably pressure to buy European. However their 737s are quite old and tatty looking and will probably need to be repalced themselves before too long - wouldn't be surprised if they're repalced with Airbuses given that they opted for the 320 family.

I have heard that RO tried to convert the A318 into other A320 series aircraft, but Airbus didn't accept that. AFAIK RO is not very happy with the A318 (especially regarding cargo and range with full load) and has looked recently at least at the A319. The order was, at that time, political, RO being the only company owning an A318 without having other A320 series aircraft.

Not all 737's are old and tatty, that's just the -300 series; the -700 series is quite new and some 738 would fit into the fleet.


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