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Another Runway Near Miss In US  
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12318 posts, RR: 35
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11143 times:

The Washington Post reports that a Delta Connection CRJ took off over a US A320 which had been on the runway, at BWI, because the controller gave an improper clearance. The FAA has started an inquiry.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...AR2007120702258.html?nav=rss_metro

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2645 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11014 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

The FAA has to hire more controllers. I hear more and more about aircraft almost hitting each other. The skies are busier and busier everyday. They need to get a new system going or else something might not be close and aircraft may hit each other and cause a big problem.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21079 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10965 times:



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
The FAA has to hire more controllers.

 checkmark  Not only that, but the FAA has to hire enough controllers so that they don't have to have mandatory overtime and six-day weeks, and the controllers are working half-asleep. I've controlled half-alseep once - not fun. And that was just in a training simulator.

Of course, hiring more controllers and treating them properly wouldn't be in line with the new philosophy of cost-cutting and acting like a private corporation that the FAA, among other government organizations, has adopted.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10920 times:

Regardless of what the FAA want, if they do not act, they may get something that they want even less.

David


User currently offlinePlateMan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10811 times:

From NBC4, the station in Washington, my favorite quote:

"Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Jim Peters said a ComAir flight flew over an America West plane, which had just landed."

OK...so does the FAA not know America West is US on did the media misquote him? Bets anybody?

http://www.nbc4.com/news/14804838/detail.html?dl=headlineclick

[Edited 2007-12-08 09:13:17]


"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10754 times:



Quoting PlateMan (Reply 4):
OK...so does the FAA not know America West is US on did the media misquote him? Bets anybody?

My bet is, the A320 was in U.S Airways livery but still using the "Cactus" call sign which is all part of the transition so it was both  Smile

Who wants that bet?

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Of course, hiring more controllers and treating them properly wouldn't be in line with the new philosophy of cost-cutting and acting like a private corporation that the FAA, among other government organizations, has adopted.

Home Run.....cost cutting is killing a safety driven organization in so many ways, starting with personnel. More controllers are leaving than I think even NATCA thought when they were trying to get the FAA to listen.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10695 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
Another Runway Near Miss In US

Why do we still use the term "Near Miss"? It was used a long time ago, when the English language was backwards and such. But now a days it doesn't make any sense to the average person.


User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10633 times:

Don't forget the near misses due to pilot error such as the one in Newark this week between the CO B737 jet landing and ExpressJest taxing across the runway.

WNBC.com?s Brian Thompson has learned that two Continental Airline jets had a near miss Thursday just before 9 p.m.

Sources told WNBC.com that the planes actually came within 300 feet of one another.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22152536/


User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2645 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10477 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Of course, hiring more controllers and treating them properly

The FAA needs to realize that these controller's jobs are to protect the people that fly everyday. It is one of the hardest jobs. I am sure there are some controllers in this thread and they know what a burden it is to control so many aircraft in an already overly congested air space. If you want to hear what a controller's day is like go to this link:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eyO-bWGxWBU
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1062 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10395 times:

The conversion in that YouTube video was not very encouraging. Probably I should avoid flying via JFK.

User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 48
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10377 times:

Not a chance of seeing more controllers. At least not until we see a couple more Tenerife's anyway. The economics just aren't there. Besides, here in the US...the people in general and the Government in particular ALWAYS think in REACTIVE mode. NEVER in PROACTIVE. When we see a few flaming balls of wreckage on a taxiway, then and only then will there be any justification for it. We will not see any investment in technology and/or increased staffing until then. I'm sorry. But we just won't.

In the meantime, as long as we can continue with a "whew...that was close....but no one was hurt" system, that's just the way it's going to be.

The only thing any of you can realistically hope for is that you or none of your loved ones end up on one of the catalyst disasters.

Sad.


User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10260 times:



Quoting Matt D (Reply 10):
Not a chance of seeing more controllers. At least not until we see a couple more Tenerife's anyway. The economics just aren't there. Besides, here in the US...the people in general and the Government in particular ALWAYS think in REACTIVE mode. NEVER in PROACTIVE. When we see a few flaming balls of wreckage on a taxiway, then and only then will there be any justification for it. We will not see any investment in technology and/or increased staffing until then. I'm sorry. But we just won't.

Sadly, I agree with you. In Canada obviously we don't have the traffic density you do down south, but we're starting to see increased 'loss of separation' incidents at the major airport.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 9):
The conversion in that YouTube video was not very encouraging.

Yup, you can hear the stress. Never mind the mandatory OT or 6-day weeks, stress alone will wear out the ATC guys. Heroes in my book for just keeping a creaky system going.

Both our countries, and likely Mexico too, need to look at large-scale, long-term investments in an integrated ATC system.

My $0.02 anyway.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10063 times:



Quoting Matt D (Reply 10):
Not a chance of seeing more controllers. At least not until we see a couple more Tenerife's anyway. The economics just aren't there. Besides, here in the US...the people in general and the Government in particular ALWAYS think in REACTIVE mode. NEVER in PROACTIVE. When we see a few flaming balls of wreckage on a taxiway, then and only then will there be any justification for it. We will not see any investment in technology and/or increased staffing until then. I'm sorry. But we just won't.


Absolutely correct. I've worked in DC since 1991, and we are nothing but reactive. When anyone raises their hand to suggest we adopt a more proactive stance on anything, that miscreant is quickly beaten down.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21079 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10006 times:



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 8):
If you want to hear what a controller's day is like go to this link

To be fair, that's one of JFK's more charismatic controllers who gets irritated easily and is not afraid to show it. That's not the average.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9992 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Not only that, but the FAA has to hire enough controllers so that they don't have to have mandatory overtime and six-day weeks, and the controllers are working half-asleep. I've controlled half-alseep once - not fun. And that was just in a training simulator.

Exactly. Also, if we don't upgrade our Air Traffic Control System we are going to be in trouble.



Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
User currently offlineCO787EWR From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9931 times:

Is the system better in the Europe and Asia could we possibly one of their systems.

User currently offlineBeertrucker From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9923 times:

well I know l Lot of people who would go into ATC but since you can't get into it after you turn 31 years old knocks a lot of people out of it. Someone told me you have to be in school for that before you turn 31. I have thought about doing ATC but cause of hearing that well that makes it so I can't do it. So kids it is up to you now.


Fly HI
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9869 times:
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Quoting VS11 (Reply 9):
Probably I should avoid flying via JFK.

That's three-quarters the reason why things are the way they are in that YouTube. JFK is jacked up and nobody wants to fix it basically. Just give them more airspace to fly around is the answer the Bush admin. is giving. Why in the WORLD anyone (airlines) would want to continue to fly into and out of that airport is beyond me. I feel for the controllers. I have friends that are ATC's and they are tired.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12318 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9869 times:

Another report tonight of a near miss between two CO aircraft at EWR.

http://crazy4planes.blogspot.com/200...nental-airlines-jets-involved.html


User currently offlineRockinflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9816 times:

I'vre read in many publications that LAX is the most notorious for incursions.


AA,AC,AF,BA,BN,BW,CO,DL,FL,F9,HA,KL,NA,PA,RW,TW,UA,WA,WN
User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 966 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9314 times:



Quoting Lexy (Reply 17):
That's three-quarters the reason why things are the way they are in that YouTube. JFK is jacked up and nobody wants to fix it basically. Just give them more airspace to fly around is the answer the Bush admin. is giving. Why in the WORLD anyone (airlines) would want to continue to fly into and out of that airport is beyond me. I feel for the controllers. I have friends that are ATC's and they are tired.

Because it's New York and thats where the demand lies.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21079 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9232 times:



Quoting CO787EWR (Reply 15):
Is the system better in the Europe and Asia could we possibly one of their systems

They don't handle nearly as much traffic as even a quarter of the US ATC system. The comparison is one that a lot of people like to make, but isn't all that apt.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2645 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8852 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
To be fair, that's one of JFK's more charismatic controllers who gets irritated easily and is not afraid to show it. That's not the average

I understand that. But it still shows the stress caused by the job. If stuff like that doesn't get the FAA thinking I don't know what will. Flying on B6 I fly out of JFK often and every time its busier and busier. Hearing this doesn't make me feel good and it shows how much there is a need for more controllers. But that is just me.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineJawed From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8775 times:

Guys, it should be called a near hit, not a near miss! If it was a near miss, then the planes would have collided (they would have nearly missed each other). But it was a near hit, because they nearly collided (and thus missed).

User currently offlineDMAJ7TH From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 38 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8741 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
To be fair, that's one of JFK's more charismatic controllers who gets irritated easily and is not afraid to show it. That's not the average.

-Mir

I agree. The controller on the youtube recording is doing a great deal of editorializing during his transmissions. Granted, he is under stress, and I know what its like when things get like that - I fly into Kennedy, LaGuardia and Teterboro on a weekly basis. Especially Teterboro. Teterboro is a second home for me (Yup, you guessed it, I fly corporate jets). Unfortunately, the editorials this controller is making add to the confusion and are probably unnecessary. Although, these New York controllers are some of the most colorful folks around. They're tough as nails.

Us pilots can hear when a controller is stressed from a particular situation, and we try our best to be respectful and compliant all the more when a confusing situation arises.

The whole runway incursion problem not only comes down to fatigue on the pilots and controllers end, but have to do with how pilots and controllers are trained. While I cannot speak for controller training (because I am not a controller) I can say that flight crew SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) either need some revising or light enforcement from the chief pilots who oversee the operations. Some company's are excellent in this field, others are not. I'm convinced that some (most certainly not all) flight crew's still are not doing the simple things to prevent runway incursions such as maintaining a sterile cockpit while taxiing and below 10,000 feet, suspending all non-essential tasks (such as checklist usage) when crossing active runways, reading back hold short clearances appropriately, questioning a confusing clearances, confirming a clearance that is vague, etc etc.

But unfortunately, along with these simple solutions comes throwing a certain amount of money into the problem as well. I'm not one who is always convinced that throwing money into a problem fixes it - but when it comes to improving controller staffing and modern, reliable equipment procurement, this is the case.


25 Deltajet757 : The bottom line is FAA needs to hire more controllers. They need to hire as many as they can get because the skies are only going to get busier and bu
26 Post contains images TwinOtter : All native English speakers understand near miss. The etymology is "near thing" + "missed". In other words, "a thing came near us, but we missed hitt
27 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Just come visit! Then make posts on sites like this. Have fun Dare ya!
28 Scottieprecord : Haha yea, I think I've heard other ATC clips with him. Near hit, to me, means they barely hit each other. Near miss means they barely missed each oth
29 Rockinflyer : LOL. kinda like "gone missing", huh?
30 Post contains images TwinOtter : And did you ever notice we park on driveways and drive on parkways ....
31 SailorOrion : Yes and no. The total of Europe has about 50% of the flights that the US ATC system has, but if you take Germany as an example: Germany has about 1/1
32 ThirtyEcho : Just checking the numbers but it looks like we could hire 1 million new ATC people, modernize all of ATC, fully fund Social Security and pay off a hug
33 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : Okay enough with all the union BS. Adding more people will not solve the problem. You must add more COMPETENT people. Let's face it, not all ATCs are
34 Post contains images 747fan : I listen to the JFK Tower frequency on Liveatc.net occasionally and more often than not, he'll get irritated at some point while I'm listening. Its e
35 ADXMatt : I don't know the figures myself but will accept yours above. If a GS-14 is 52k-75k how can you say that the ATC's are overpaid? If you are going by t
36 P3Orion : KC135TopBoom: You should get your facts straight before you throw stones. Really. And you know this...how? Wrong. There is no such thing as a Level 4
37 IAHFLYR : I am not sure how you achieved such a high respect rating on this site while making the incorrect, off the wall, and slanderous comments such as below
38 Post contains images IAHFLYR : P30rion, I didn't mean to almost rewrite your entire post, you're just faster with the keyboard it seems, and I had reached my limit of 4 quotes, so
39 Post contains images P3Orion : KC135TopBoom's post got me fired up. We're (FAA controllers) not perfect. But I will not sit back and let some misinformed individual take pot shots
40 Post contains images Rockinflyer : Yeah! That too! Here's another I heard on CNN today: "Turned up missing"!
41 Post contains links IADCA : Even funnier because a GS-14 is a lot more than that (79,000-102,000) without even accounting for locality pay. http://www.opm.gov/oca/07tables/pdf/g
42 Rongotai : So-- you don't believe in free markets then? In a free market if there is a shortage of something, and people need them, the price goes up. So it is
43 IAHFLYR : I was thinking the exact same thing.....then after he makes them he runs and hides for a few days! I think the real story is he was one of those 4 ai
44 Mason : I'll take it. This is very possible, although whenever you hear your "flight number", your ears should perk up, even if it isn't you. It is possible
45 P3Orion : I hope he responds to either you or I. I'd like to know why he has such a low opinion of ATC.[Edited 2007-12-09 19:42:07]
46 P3Orion : Where did he get his "facts?"
47 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Who knows...probably pulled them out of his PATCO books from the late 70's when he was a boomer, if he was....think I might have to run a check with
48 Jetblueguy22 : It is not like you put an ad in the newspaper saying "Wanted Air Traffic Controller, Starting Immediately" You go through training. And just because
49 ATCGOD : People turn down these ATC jobs all the time because they will not take the $31,700 the FAA is offering them. I was stupid and accepted that offer. I
50 Post contains links IAHFLYR : Sure doesn't seem that is the case now does it? It appears the new PATCO as you say has a desire to do more than hold the nation hostage as you say.
51 ATCT : Ok #1 as a union member (and not VERY proudly, I dont agree with alot of the NATCA propaganda but Im still a member...you cant change it from the out
52 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Very well put, nice work for a "Pup"! Hey watch it. I counted 3 yesterday I had and still had time to tie my shoes after having to take them off to c
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