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DOT Considers JFK Slot Auction, New Caps LGA & EWR  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25381 posts, RR: 49
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8665 times:

Could be interesting to see what an auction would do to airlines that have maintained long standing grand father type operations at JFK.

Quote:
DOT Considering Slot Auctions Instead Of Congestion Pricing
12/10/2007

The U.S. Transportation Dept. is backing away from congestion pricing for New York airports, and sources say DOT is instead looking at slot auctions as well as extending flight caps to all three New York region airports.

DOT officials last week told industry representatives it will not carry out its threat to introduce congestion pricing to alleviate New York delays but still wants to bring in some sort of market mechanism for New York, and has indicated some type of slot auction system could be proposed.

Also, DOT is believed to be considering extending the flight caps to all three New York area airports, partly to address concerns that airlines could cut flights at JFK and add them at Newark.

Full story (subscription required)
http://www.aviationweek.com/publicat...ions+Instead+Of+Congestion+Pricing


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16866 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8639 times:

I don't know if it's mentioned in this article, it was mentioned elsewhere that the lottery would take into account airlines who have already made significant infrastructure investments in their respective facilities at EWR and JFK.

This would protect CO at EWR, who have made Billions in improvements to their facilities in the course of the 20 years CO has been operating their EWR hub. AA who just completed a Billion Dollar investment in a new Terminal, and B6 who is in the midst of a very substantial Terminal redevelopment.

It's unclear where DL would stand as they have not invested near what CO, AA and B6 have invested in their facilities.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8617 times:

Interesting.

Although If this occurs B6 will be hamstrung for growth in NYC without committing to frames larger than an Airbus narrowbody. Im sure they could move slots around but this will force them to expand elsewhere. IAD perhaps.

[Edited 2007-12-09 09:00:52]

User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2698 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8605 times:

EWR simply cannot continue to operate the way it is right now.

Everything scheduled to arrive after 1PM coming from within 2000 miles is groundstopped or gets a lengthy EDCT time even on days with no wind or weather.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8590 times:

Freakin duh!

Peak pricing only works on public transportation such as highways, busses or trains where route flexibility does not exist and the only way to offset a peak is to ramp up cost at the prefered time to travel. If you put a premium on flights during the peak time, the airlines simply pay it and redistribute it across all the flights at the airport over the course of the day, or on a macro scale across their entire fleet of a similar type of aircraft where 3-4 flights a day at a single airport is hardly a pin-prick in the overall cost of doing business. The "peak pricing" crap/"contingent valuation method is the biggest load of BS I've ever heard of. The FAA was stupid enough to listen to academia who have been pushing this on airports for nearly a decade, what a bunch of clowns.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4061 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8547 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 2):
IAD perhaps.

Do what Indy Air did?

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 3):
EWR simply cannot continue to operate the way it is right now.

Everything scheduled to arrive after 1PM coming from within 2000 miles is groundstopped or gets a lengthy EDCT time even on days with no wind or weather.

It's almost a given every day there are or will be ground stops going into one of the three NYC airports. Usually all three.
Hopefully slot restrictions will convince some if not all carriers to at least be judicious with their CRJ flights into these airports. Hopefully many will not choose to use CRJs into NYC.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8494 times:

Why not put an aircraft minimum size limit on the vast majority of slots, thereby encouraging carriers to reduce frequencies and introduce larger aircraft instead ? Does Podunk, NH really need 3 RJ's a day from JFK ? Wouldn't one per day timed to coincide more or less with intercontinental arrivals/departures banks be enough ?

User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8468 times:
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Why are the airlines focusing just on JFK. What the DOT should do is to give the airlines some type of incentive if they go to surrounding airports for their domestic flights. SWF and HPN have plenty of slots. They may not have the longest runways but they can handle some smaller aircraft. The airlines who are trying to tap in to the NY,CT, and NJ markets should consider those airports for hubs. They can build terminals and not have a bunch of competition. I have friends that go out of JFK everyday and would love to see some of the smaller airports utilized more.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25381 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8401 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
I don't know if it's mentioned in this article, it was mentioned elsewhere that the lottery would take into account airlines who have already made significant infrastructure investments in their respective facilities at EWR and JFK.

No mention of any special rights for carriers having invested in facilities.

Only that the DOT sees a 80'ish flight hourly limit at JFK while the airport is running at 100+ so cuts could occur across all operators including international carriers and that the DOT was warming up to IATA's slot lottery model.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 6):
Does Podunk, NH really need 3 RJ's a day from JFK ?

Goes back to a very basic principle of equal access to smaller communities which has always been a big part of US transportation policy. Anyhow, looking at an airport like LGA airlines obviously enjoy operating those CRJ flights to Podunk as they must be bringing in good cash.
In addition any move away from such policy that could jeopardize service from smaller communities would have the areas Congressional delegation up in arms.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 7):
HPN have plenty of slots.

Suggest you talk to the good residents of Westchester County. The shoe box of a terminal at HPN, does have hourly capacity limits which are reached for a good portion of the day and limit any meaningful increase in flights.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8402 times:



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 7):
SWF and HPN have plenty of slots. They may not have the longest runways but they can handle some smaller aircraft.

As far as reported in media, SWF actually has one of the longest runways in the country. Capable of handling anything up to A380, AN-225, or Space Shuttle.


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8382 times:

Auctioning,  scratchchin  Interesting idea. Some questions:

1. Where do they get the slots to auction? Do the confiscate a set percentage, say 10%. Or do they take them all?
2. After an airline 'buys' them through an auction, do they really own them - or is just a lease for a fixed period of time? 6 month schedules period, for example.
3. What happens if they don't use them (say 80% of the time)? Do they lose them, and do they get a refund?
4. Can anyone buy, or just airlines? and why?
5. What if an airline can't afford to pay up front? Can they pay over time ... so much a month?
6. What happens to the money? Goes to the airport? to the FAA? to the US taxpayers?
7. If the airport gets some or all of the money, where is the incentive for them to improve infrastructure? Isn't this an incentive for them to not improve? Same question if FAA gets the money.
8. Can an airline buy a slot, with the intention of not using it? This would have some pretty nasty anti-competitive effects.

While searching for 'market-based' solutions this isn't it. Using the buy-sell rule would be a (not perfect but) better solution.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25381 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8323 times:

The IATA slot system has been developed over the years (near 60) as pretty much an international standard that allows the use of a limited resource in an unbiased and efficient manner.

Slots are allocated according to historical precedence so an air carrier with a 4:20pm departure last summer timetable will get the same 4:20pm slot next summer unless they failed to operate it.

Some highlights are:
1) Slots are allocated on bi-annual basis.
2) Airlines require 80% usage factor (completion&ontime) to retain historical slots
3) Slots that fall short of the 80% mark return to a pool
4) 50% of slots in the pool are allocated to 'new entrants' as defined with 4 or less current operations at the airport.
5) Remaining 50% of pool slots are allocated based on consideration of various criteria including competition, aircraft mix, service on a new route etc..

Now how the DOT would manage to switch JFK from a free for all, to a slot system overnight particularly in light that everyone agrees some sort of overall flight cuts are needed and some carriers would be left empty handed is the million dollar question.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23014 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8264 times:

Does anyone know what the DoT can and cannot do at JFK without Congressional approval? I know if ORD goes back to 'real' slots, Congress would have to approve it... not sure if the same is true at JFK.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
4) 50% of slots in the pool are allocated to 'new entrants' as defined with 4 or less current operations at the airport.

I suspect the FAA would define 'new entrants' as 8 operations or fewer just to keep it consistent with ORD.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 4):
If you put a premium on flights during the peak time, the airlines simply pay it and redistribute it across all the flights at the airport over the course of the day, or on a macro scale across their entire fleet of a similar type of aircraft where 3-4 flights a day at a single airport is hardly a pin-prick in the overall cost of doing business. The "peak pricing" crap/"contingent valuation method is the biggest load of BS I've ever heard of. The FAA was stupid enough to listen to academia who have been pushing this on airports for nearly a decade, what a bunch of clowns.

Peak pricing has further implications for JFK, though, because it will affect B6 much less than either DL or AA... I'm not advocating one way or another, but it's something to keep in mind.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8220 times:



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 6):
Does Podunk, NH really need 3 RJ's a day from JFK ? Wouldn't one per day timed to coincide more or less with intercontinental arrivals/departures banks be enough ?

Do you think that all the people traveling from Podunk to JFK are making an intercontinental trip? I don't think so. I would say very few are.


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8220 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
The IATA slot system has been developed over the years (near 60) as pretty much an international standard that allows the use of a limited resource in an unbiased and efficient manner.

Two comments on this;

1. While it is an international standard - many countries use it for all operations (International and domestic) at their airports - in reality it has to be all ops, or it wouldn't work properly.

2. Although the Schedules Conferences are managed by IATA, it is open to any airline IATA member or not. The last meeting in Toronto had almost 1000 participants (people, not airlines/airports/coordinators).


User currently offlineJerseyGuy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1997 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8172 times:
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Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 2):
Although If this occurs B6 will be hamstrung for growth in NYC without committing to frames larger than an Airbus narrowbody. Im sure they could move slots around but this will force them to expand elsewhere. IAD perhaps

Someone has to say it so I will

Long rumored Midwest Hub City  Big grin



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User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25381 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7971 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
I suspect the FAA would define 'new entrants' as 8 operations or fewer just to keep it consistent with ORD.

I doubt it. Unlike ORD where international carriers were exempt a JFK program would include them.

By setting a high threshold, foreign carriers would be free to continue growing under the guise of 'new entrant' while US airlines would be blocked, so I very much doubt DOT would allow such a loop whole at JFK which clearly has much more international demand then ORD.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7909 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
Does anyone know what the DoT can and cannot do at JFK without Congressional approval? I know if ORD goes back to 'real' slots, Congress would have to approve it... not sure if the same is true at JFK.

Congress passed legislation in 2000 ending slots at ORD in 2002 and JFK on January 1, 2007. They would have to pass legislation before the FAA could return to using slots.


User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7851 times:



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
Suggest you talk to the good residents of Westchester County. The shoe box of a terminal at HPN, does have hourly capacity limits which are reached for a good portion of the day and limit any meaningful increase in flights.

 checkmark  Expansion at HPN, SWF, TTN, etc., has the potential to relieve the pressure put on the big three. The problem is that the service from these three seem under advertised, and above all the obvious capacity restraints and local objections. If those in the area who complain about the minor noise issue were to see how a little bit of noise could help keep them from sitting in a 2 hour taxi out, maybe things will start to change. However, one thing they cannot emulate at these airports is the amount of non-stop destinations served as well as variety of carriers.



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11632 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7831 times:

Will the madness never end?

We need more runways, and more efficient airspace use, and better ATC. We don't need to be artificially constraining capacity even more.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
I don't know if it's mentioned in this article, it was mentioned elsewhere that the lottery would take into account airlines who have already made significant infrastructure investments in their respective facilities at EWR and JFK.

This would protect CO at EWR, who have made Billions in improvements to their facilities in the course of the 20 years CO has been operating their EWR hub. AA who just completed a Billion Dollar investment in a new Terminal, and B6 who is in the midst of a very substantial Terminal redevelopment.

Why that is encouraging - as airlines like CO, B6 and AA should be "compensated" (in this hypothetical slot scheme) for the immense investment they've made - this has trouble written all over it. If the FAA only repossesses, say (and I'm just using these numbers for argument) 5% of the slots/take-off positions that CO, B6 and AA have, but repossess 10% of everyone else' slots/take-off positions, you'll have lawsuits, claims of unfair treatment, of bias against companies too small or too new to have had the equal opportunity to invest in their own terminals.

I agree that if a slot repossession/reallocation system does come to pass, and if airlines like CO, B6 and AA aren't as hard-hit by it because of their new terminals, the biggest loser will definitely be DL. DL already has pretty much the most to lose, along with B6, at JFK, as those two airlines alone are responsible for probably 50% - at least - of the new flying at JFK in the last 2-3 years. If DL has to give up more slots than AA or B6, I doubt they'll just accept that quietly without a fight, which is why I tend to doubt it will happen that way.


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7727 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
We need more runways,

But remember that new runways are evil and would only lead to more flights being added instead of reducing delays, althewhile cutting down poor trees and filling innocent up innocents waters with rubble.

/end treehugger bullcrap

And as much anybody on here wants to see Jamaica Bay filled up with rubble to provide space for a new 13R/31R (might as well fill up Flushing Bay for a new 13L/31R at LGA as well), it just won't happen with all the environmental paranoia in this world these days.


User currently offlineLGA777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1149 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7601 times:

For those of you who don't follow LGA closely it is getting really bad again ATC wise. As other's have said some sort of GDP happens basically around 1400-1600 lcl six days a week and often lasts till late at night(Saturday is usually ok due to hugely reduced schedules) regardless of the weather, Last Thursday was an exception, severe clear and no GDP or either one with no significant EDICT times then the shit hit the fan. From 1500-1700 lcl takeoff que was about 60-70 mins long but the inbounds just kept on coming. Finally by 1700 there was no where to put the inbounds so all arrivals did a right turn after landing on 22 and qued up near the MAT. 45-60 mins became the average time from touchdown to block in and still 60 to now 90 min waits in line for takeoff. Finally around 1800 a Ground stop was issued followed by a significant GDP and by around 1930 lcl the gridlock was completely over. This situation is starting to remind me of 2000 and I hope something is done to reduce congestion and delays. For anyone reading this who needs to fly out of LGA and be on time book an Originator departure and you will be fine. Try to avoid anything after 1400 lcl unless delays are not going to be a big problem for your trip!

Regards

LGA777


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19708 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7540 times:

I've said it several times and I'll say it again.

On any given weekday, there are about 28 non-stop flights (when you account for code-shares) from the three NYC airports to SFO. The vast majority of these flights occur on aircraft the size of a 757 or smaller. DL uses a 738 on a number of these routes.

NOBODY needs to choose between 28 flights per day. Five or six would offer quite adequate flexibility.

If these 28 flights could be compressed into 5-6 flights per day by using large aircraft that would save some 22 flights per day. Now, imagine the same stunt being pulled for MIA, ORD, LAX, LAS, SLC, and every other major hub airline with an absurd number of flights being flown on small a/c. That alone might save as many as 300 flights/day.

And what about the little guys like B6? They can either suck it up and buy a 787/A330 for those routes or they can code-share with other airlines. But there's a point at which frequency ceases to matter because no matter what time my flight is scheduled to leave, it's not leaving then... or if it does leave, then it sits on the ground for 3 hours.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23014 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7455 times:



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 16):
By setting a high threshold, foreign carriers would be free to continue growing under the guise of 'new entrant' while US airlines would be blocked, so I very much doubt DOT would allow such a loop whole at JFK which clearly has much more international demand then ORD.

Are there any carriers that have between 4 and 8 flights right now? BA has 8, so they're likely to get regulated regardless. AF is the only carrier for which I think the number would matter, as I can't think of any other carrier that wants to grow a whole lot. LH might add a flight to DUS at some point, but that would put them at 4 exactly.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25381 posts, RR: 49
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7314 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Are there any carriers that have between 4 and 8 flights right now?

Just about every foreign airline at JFK <8 flights per day.

Would it be ok for Virgin, Air Jamaica, TACA, Air Canada, Mexicana, Emirates, Cathay, Avianca, Swiss etc.. to keep growing during peak traffic times while others (namely US carriers) would be stuck year after year holding the same frequencies will almost no hope of growth.

If anything I could see the DOT/FAA applying the strictest litmus test for any new entrants to ensure competition is not tilted in favor or against any single or group of airlines.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 Klwright69 : This will get very interesting... EWR has never been slot controlled, so it is interesting to see the FAA including EWR in any proposed changes. The g
26 RJdxer : Of course there is wind and weather, the ATC OIS page says so!
27 Post contains images Lincoln : And just as an example of the follow-on effect: One of my company's clients is located on Capitol Square in Richmond, VA. In the past 9 months I've d
28 Revelation : Saw an interesting documentary about the building of B6's new "super efficient" terminal, talking how it's built around the A320s and EMB170s, no all
29 Aircellist : Just sounds so right, in my opinion...
30 Boeing7E7 : Why not just do away with deregulation? Just kidding. This is what really needs to be done. In fact, any large hub airport (FAA definition, not airli
31 MSYPI7185 : Here is my main concern. With the open skies btwn US & EU basically any carrier in the EU will be able to add flts to JFK and the US carriers would b
32 Flighty : We don't? What do you call traffic lights? Those constrain capacity. They also make our cities function. Slots do the same thing for airports. Free-f
33 RJpieces : Interesting that you mention those particular airlines as none of them but Virgin and Swiss have significant operations during peak times...Airlines
34 Boeing7E7 : In the real world, the carriers with buying power redistribute those costs across the system. Only those who can afford to pay can play. That's the d
35 Post contains images Ikramerica : Let's just federalize it while we are at it, call it "Amsky" and run 747s on the route, and subsidize the flights too. And what theoretical 640-700 s
36 Post contains images Commavia : That's right, how could I have forgotten? Forgive me, it's been a while since I've taken my tree hugger-NIMBY refresher course. Sorry!
37 KC135TopBoom : Airlines that have operated historically at JFK, and get reduced in service, because of the slot system, will take the DOT, FAA, and NYNJPA to court
38 Mir : HPN will never be a major airport for the NYC area, the Greenwich NIMBYs won't stand for it. So how is an auction any different? It would still be on
39 Boeing7E7 : Who said anything about an auction?
40 Mir : The thread starter did: -Mir
41 Boeing7E7 : Roger.
42 KC135TopBoom : Didn't we already do that? Great idea. Doesn't NH and JL have all of their B-747-400Ds for sale?
43 DocLightning : People keep answering comments about forcing airlines to reduce frequency and increase aircraft size as "federalization" and "re-regulation." Well, ma
44 Cubsrule : That's incorrect. Anyone can start new international service. No one except carriers with fewer than 8 arrival authorizations can start new domestic
45 KC135TopBoom : When something isn't regulated by the government, market forces tend to regulate that idustry. When the government regulates an industry, inefficenci
46 Cubsrule : Well, yes and no. The distinction between domestic and international carriers isn't based on whose flag they fly. It's based on their destination.
47 RoseFlyer : I think the problem is that one flight that does connect to the international bank. JFK doesn't have problems with a mid morning flight before intern
48 Mir : So if peak pricing is "discriminatory pricing", is a slot auction really all that different? I'm not implying that you think it is, it's just a quest
49 Cubsrule : STL is seeing the best RASM growth of any of AA's hubs... MEM does fine as well. While places like CMH and PIT failed, smaller hubs with less local t
50 Richierich : That sounds great and I wouldn't be surprised if something along these lines happens down the road, but in the meantime, how do you pay for a shiny n
51 RL757PVD : If the ground transportation options were expanded at SWF and the Port Authority made it free for the first two years at SWF, I wonder if we could see
52 Surfdog75 : You are so right. The government in general and the FAA in particular seems to accomplish almost nothing these days. What's needed is leadership that
53 Cubsrule : ...except that no one gets anything taken away at ORD. See 14 C.F.R. 93.29.
54 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : DFW does very well. That is why the US Government will do it.......because it makes no sense. Remeber, it is the US Government that is responsible fo
55 Flighty : I agree, but there are excellent congestion solutions available. Look at FRA and NRT. Slot constrained because of their large national economies. Our
56 Humberside : How many airlines fit into the category though? Zoom, Sun Country, Eurofly are some I can think off but such a plan would only have a very minor effe
57 BooDog : Here's my simple solution: a. If an airline offers under 799 seats a day on any route, the airline is limited to eight flights a day on that route. b.
58 Cubsrule : How many routes not involving LGA does this affect? If a carrier paid for an LGA slot, shouldn't it be that carrier's problem how the slot is used? I
59 Jetblueguy22 : If you have a long run way utilize it! The port authority should work on building up the terminal and advertise more to airlines. They should offer l
60 Richierich : While this sounds great and fair, I wonder what sort of an impact this will have? How many flights would this actually eliminate? Clearly it will aff
61 Post contains images LawnDart : Not so... "In 1968, the FAA promulgated the High Density Traffic Airports Rule (High Density Rule), 14 CFR part 93, subpart K, to reduce delays at fi
62 Boeing7E7 : Slot auctions are discriminatory as well. The only way to really make a dent is a capacity rule. Right now, they stack RJs because its cheaper to hav
63 Post contains links Eghansen : Another link regarding the same subject, this time in the NY Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/11/nyregion/11airport.html
64 Post contains links Halls120 : According to this morning's Washington Post, the announcement is imminent. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/12/18/AR2007121802000.html
65 Post contains links STT757 : I think there's a mistake with the New York Times article, the Government announced today they are limiting JFK to no more than 82 departures an hour.
66 Cubsrule : What exactly does the government think will be different in 2 years?
67 ANother : A new administration peut etre? Someone else to take the blame for lack of infrastructure?
68 Post contains images Cubsrule : It's the only thing I can think of.
69 DeltaL1011man : hahaha........sure hope your joking about DL......i think it was 3 or 4 bill on the JFK hub(when they bought it from PA) to bad the government doesn'
70 Spacecadet : This is the same logic that says that if you build more highways, you'll have less traffic. Problem is it's not true, and we know it from experience.
71 Lowecur : Not too many specifics in this report. It sounds to me like there could be a similar number of flights from 6:30am till 9:30 pm, but the peak hours wi
72 Post contains images Teme82 : If that slot auction in JFK comes in to reality AY could end up getting so bad slots times that they will be thinking of scraping JFK route
73 STT757 : No where near that, DL paid $260 Million for the Shuttle and Trans-Atlantic operations of Pan Am in 1991.
74 Boysteve : I don't beleive it's that simple with codeshares and alliances. At ORD AA may not mind BA bringing in more flights if it feeds their domestic routes.
75 Richierich : The real loser here will, ultimately, be the consumer (yet again). As capacity is reduced, fares will go up to compensate. I suppose some airlines wil
76 Worldtraveler : DL also assumed hundreds of millions of dollars of ticket liabilities and debt. DL's cost was certainly in the billions. But the basis of the discuss
77 BooDog : This was the ABC national news leading story just a few minutes ago. JFK capped at 83 flights. Military airspace being opened up on BOTH coasts for c
78 STT757 : Your assertion is inaccurate, I included AA and B6. AA, CO and B6 have made significant commitments and investments at EWR and JFK as I mentioned bel
79 Mir : I would count P.S. as an investment in JFK. It's not much of a terminal investment, but it is a commitment of upgraded service to the airport. -Mir
80 FlyASAGuy2005 : Are how do you expect to squeeze all these people on 6 flights? You can't be serious! Those 28+ flights regualry goes out full when they schedule is
81 WorldTraveler : You assume that DL has made NO investments at JFK which is not true. If we start auctioning off airspace throughout the US based on what carriers hav
82 Post contains images STT757 : I didn't say DL has not invested anything in JFK, it must of cost them something to paint T-2 those lovely Song green and purple colors.
83 WorldTraveler : so, since they have indeed invested something, then you are proosing that airspace access be granted based on the investment carriers have made in air
84 Flighty : Also, there is the issue of private vs public property. The airspace is public property. It does not belong to airlines, it belongs to the American p
85 STT757 : Asking that in the event of a slot lottery special protocols should exist to protect carriers who have made the most significant investments in their
86 DeltaL1011man : first where can they put one? second the don't even really use the ones they have(in BOS,CVG,SLC) ATL is where they do most of the MX that needs a ha
87 Halls120 : With the frequent delays caused by congestion in the NYC airspace, the consumer is already losing. The last time I was in IAD, arriving from the west
88 Mir : JetBlue found the space. IIRC there are a few hangars in the North Cargo Area that aren't being used by anyone. No. If they want to be Atlanta's airl
89 STT757 : There's tons of places, they could redevelop the land where the former TWA or Pan Am hangars are located, or the land where the former TWA cargo buil
90 Post contains images PPVRA :
91 PPVRA : Take it high enough and it will work. Some bad law or some judge with a bad interpretation of a good law is a whole different problem to solve.
92 DeltaL1011man : dam so you are saying that they can only be a one city airline?(being a smartass) well i guess guess you and Mir feel that airlines can pull money ou
93 Commavia : Well, I guess this proposal was to be expected - disappointing and disgusting, to be sure, but not surprising. What more should we expect, after all?
94 Cubsrule : The effect of such a plan at JFK would be minimal, maybe reducing total flights by 5 to 10. Most departures at JFK, RJ and otherwise, are relatively
95 Mir : American's presence at DFW is unquestioned, and they have recently completed new terminals at JFK and MIA, so obviously an airline can show a commitm
96 STT757 : The last comments from DL are for a Terminal "overhaul", which to me means fixing what they got and maybe adding a new International concourse (perha
97 DocLightning : Actually, I calculated it out on another thread. Bottom line, there are about 4,900 seats from NYC-SFO every day on 26 aircraft. 8 of these are 737-8
98 Halls120 : Which is why this stopgap measure was necessary. You can't keep adding more and more capacity into the existing infrastructure. Does the area need mo
99 Mir : Fair enough. Life in the city is not for everybody. -Mir
100 AlitaliaMD11 : Another issue with moving more flights to SWF is that the airport only has a 7 gate terminal with no customs or immigration facility.
101 Commavia : That argument would work, except that this is New York we're talking about here. "Stopgap" or "temporary" things in New York have a way of becoming d
102 Post contains links STT757 : The Port Authority just allocated $500 Million for Stewart though they have not identified where that money is going. Local media is speculating eith
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