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Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?  
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15860 times:

In the early 1970s, when the relationship between China and the US began to thaw, China bought some (14-18?) Boeing B-707-320B/C for international air travel, for CAAC. IIRC, they also bought 100% of the P&W JT-3D engines as spares.

When the Chinese decided they didn't need all those spare engines for their B-707s, they decided to build their own airplane, called the Y-10.

The Shanghai Y-10 looked remarkably like the B-707-320C, except for a few minor issues. For example, the Y-10 did not have the famous Boeing style "eye brow" windows, or the "stinger" style HF radio antenna atop the fin. Other than those two features, the two airplanes types looked identical.

Both Shanghai and Boeing publicly said the two airplanes are very different, even though they had the same dementions and looked (externally) alike.

IIRC, there were only 2-4 Y-10s built, and it never went into production, or scheduled airline service. I believe all Y-10s were used for a short time for government transport services, but not VIP service. IIRC, all were parked by 1986, or so.

But, was the Y-10 really a B-707 copy?

Where are all of the Y-10s and CAAC B-707s now?

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15751 times:

Hi!

In my opinion China received their 707's and then tried to use Boeing 707 technology to "create" a new airplane called Y-10, maybe they wanted to do something like a KC-135 "made in China", but it didn't worked out!!!
Regarding CAAC/Air China 707's there are a few still flying:

Boeing 707-3J6B


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Photo © Marcel Schmidt
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Photo © Allan Martins Antunes



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Photo © Gary Chambers



Boeing 707-3J6C


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Photo © Jan Ostrowski
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Photo © Chris Muir



The Angola Government one is quite a regular visitor to LIS, but in last week's EU/Africa Summit Angola "changed planes" and came with an ex: Pan Am 707, D2-MAN!!!
regards


User currently offlineCaboclo From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15710 times:

Reverse engineering an aircraft seems to be a lot harder than it looks. Even the Soviets had a hard time with it; they built some great clean sheet planes, but when they tried to copy western designs the results weren't so good. Witness their space shuttle. The TU-204/757 is another example. It is certified and they have sold a few, but even the Russian airlines aren't buying very many of them. Getting back to China, I think they will do a lot better with their recent approach of getting foreign airframers to license them the technology and help set up factories in China. Funny how much difference a little honesty can make.


Freight dogs have more fun
User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3139 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15636 times:



Quoting Caboclo (Reply 2):
Getting back to China, I think they will do a lot better with their recent approach of getting foreign airframers to license them the technology and help set up factories in China. Funny how much difference a little honesty can make.

You don't think the upcoming ARJ21 isn't just a little derivative of the MD-95, from when McDD and China were exploring partnerships? Did/will AVIC pay any royalties to Boeing? Maybe they did, I don't know.

-Rampart


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15608 times:

What about the Y-10s? Are any still in flyable condition? Where are they?

Reverse engineering an aircraft seems to be a lot harder than it looks. Even the Soviets had a hard time with it; they built some great clean sheet planes, but when they tried to copy western designs the results weren't so good. Witness their space shuttle. The TU-204/757 is another example.

Don't forget the Tu-2/B-29, but that was a little more successful for the USSR.


User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15523 times:


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Photo © Taecoxu




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Photo © Joseph Tonna




(filler)

You definitely can see the reverse engineering between the two designs.


The chinese still do reverse engineering, especially with vehicles...do a google search of Mercedes clones, including the smart car....



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4992 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15508 times:



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 5):
You definitely can see the reverse engineering between the two designs.

Yes, they even had the curve on the top of the engine nacelles to house the Turbo Compressors, which, in the Y10 are non-existent!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineAstral From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15414 times:

It is a reverse engineering aircraft, but not completely. There was an article in a Chinese aviation journal in 2001 talked about the Y10 development. The external 'shape' was very similar, but so was the IL62 compared to VC10, as aircraft design during the 60's period came from the same aerodyamic principles. However, internally the Y10 was quite different than the B707. According to the article, every systems onboard were not the same as that of the B707, and the structure was vastly different. That is why both Boeing and China refere the Y10 as a 'different' aircraft to the B707.
The major problem with the Y10 was its weight, plus with a very small CG shift limit, making it not save for civil application. In fact China never took any of very few Y10 made into any kind of services, and no VIP flights !! One Y10 is now in an air force museum, and I think the Chinese will move it to the aviation museum in Beijing in the near future.


User currently offlineIrobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15385 times:

And the IL-63 is still in commercial service... shame about the VC-10s, if they could have re-engined them it might have extended their life.

User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15384 times:



Quoting Caboclo (Reply 2):
but when they tried to copy western designs the results weren't so good. Witness their space shuttle.

They may have copied the principle, but not the design itself. The only (unmanned) flight the Buran made was successful, but the breakup of the Soviet Union (read: funding problems) prevented further flights.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineRampkontroler From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 859 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15286 times:

Designing a similar aircraft for similar functions is not the same as reverse engineering, whereby you have an example of one aircraft and attempt to duplicate it down to all the bits and pieces.

User currently offlineAApilot2b From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 572 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15283 times:

Hey! No offense, but with the numerous quality issues concerning products made in China... Aqua Dots being the most recent. I would not step foot on an airplane built in China.

User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15251 times:



Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 11):
I would not step foot on an airplane built in China.

IIRC AA has some Chinese-assembled MD80s!



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAApilot2b From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 572 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15180 times:

Interesting.... According to the literature I have on the MD-80. The only MD-80s assembled in China went to Chinese airlines. Either way, I still stand by my statement.

User currently offlineMarky From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15116 times:

The Chinese built MD-80s did all go to Chinese Airlines to begin with, but many have since been sold on, Spirit certainly had a few.

Although they were built in China they were built under very strict oversight by McDonnell-Douglas, so much so that they are covered by the McDonnell-Douglas type certificate and are considered by aviation authorities to have been 'built' by McDonnell-Douglas


User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15079 times:

Don't forget EMBRAER allowing Harbin to build a few ERJ145's. Not sure how that went.


EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15060 times:



Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 11):
but with the numerous quality issues concerning products made in China... Aqua Dots being the most recent.

Your comparing a child's toy with an airliner?  eyebrow 


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19727 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15001 times:

It looks like a case of "convergent design." That is to say that form follows function. Given the technology of the time, if you wanted to make an aircraft that was going to perform similarly to a 707, it was probably going to look like one.

In reality, this aircraft looks about as much like a 707 as a DC-8 does. The F100 and DC-9 looked similar, too. It's a turbojet-powered plane with 4 underwing mounted engines. The nose is a different shape, as are the wing-body fairings and engine pylons.

I'm not saying it wasn't based on the 707 or reverse-engineered from one, but it's definately not a carbon-copy.


User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14898 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
'm not saying it wasn't based on the 707 or reverse-engineered from one, but it's definately not a carbon-copy.

I have to agree with you there, at least as far as the empenage and nose/cockpit windows go. I would be curious as to the fuselage diameter and wingspan dimensions/flap layout, and how closely they match that of the 707...



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineRampkontroler From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 859 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14858 times:

Here ya go...a little more data for you:

http://www.samf.cn/fjzzEN.htm

http://image20.webshots.com/20/1/7/30/194610730rejoqp_fs.jpg

[Edited 2007-12-12 15:30:37]

User currently offlineAApilot2b From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 572 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14816 times:



Quote:
Your comparing a child's toy with an airliner?

No.... I am stating that I would not actively choose to fly on an airliner that I knew was manufactured in China.  Wink After all, the term "Quality" and "Made in China" do not normally go together.
That aside, seriously guys... it is obvious from the photos that this is not a 707 look alike.  crazy  Why would you defame the beautiful 707 by saying such a thing?


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14496 times:

Hi!

Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 20):
Why would you defame the beautiful 707 by saying such a thing?

You're absolutely right and you have "my blessing"!!! Last weekend we had here in LIS the EU/Africa summit and I saw 3 707's, one from Mali already converted with new nacelles, and 2 still original, just with the Q kit, one from Angola - D2-MAN - and one from Romania - YR-ABB - and it was fantastic to see them still flying with a long track of black smoke coming from all 4 engines and the noise was nostalgic...the Angola one was infact an ex: Pan Am 707-32, N886PA, that I saw still in Pan Am colors many years ago!!!
Regards


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 14418 times:



Quoting Irobertson (Reply 8):
And the IL-63 is still in commercial service

The IL-62 is, what's an IL-63?


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 14375 times:

Hi!

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 22):
what's an IL-63?

Maybe a "chinese copy" of the IL62!!!
 cheerful 
Regards


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14208 times:



Quoting CV990 (Reply 23):
Maybe a "chinese copy" of the IL62!!!

That must be it. Awesome!!

Talking about Chinese 'cloning' cars, I do have to admit to finding it amusing that a company called "China Brilliance" makes a car called the "BS6". Bullsh*t 6, anyone? It recently failed miserably in crash tests, as this LINK so graphically shows.


25 ContnlEliteCMH : "Passenger cabin intrusion" doesn't begin to describe the behavior of several Chinese cars and there's no way I'm even looking at one until (a) they
26 KC135TopBoom : A Chinese copy of a Russian copy of a British jetliner?
27 Irobertson : An idiot from Canada. Sorry!
28 Cricket : The best documented reverse engineering example is what the Soviets did with the B-29 making the Tu-4 by copying everything but the engines (there wer
29 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : Tu-4, you are right. Me bad, damed keyboard...........
30 NorthStarDC4M : I don't believe any of the current fleet was built in China. Two of the Reno Air birds were but i believe they were sold off? And lets not forget the
31 KC135TopBoom : I thought those were the Reno Air MD-90s, not the MD-83s that were built in China. Yes, it is scary, even the .50 caliber defensive M-2 MGs were copi
32 Post contains images Fraport : Does it get any more ignorant?! Typical western perception The Buran was in no way reverse engineered. Did the Svoviets buy some US Shuttles and dism
33 CV990 : Hi! Noop, not an idiot...I've donne the same, quite a few times too...but we had a laugh regarding this!!! It's Christmas, it's a fun time! Regards an
34 Post contains images BlueSkys : A Chinese born Russian Spy here in Canada to reverse engineer our Q400's? While your at it fix the landing gear problem.
35 KC135TopBoom : Why don't you go back and see I had cut and pasted what was said about the Buran from Post #2, Caboclo. True the Buran was not a copy of the US Orbit
36 Post contains links and images KELPkid : That's an easy one: before: View Large View MediumPhoto © Michael Brazier after: View Large View MediumPhoto © French Frogs Aviation Pictur
37 Post contains images BlueSkys : I guess schools stopped teaching history? And history and facts are nowhere to be found...Your telling me no research can be done? OH GOD WHY?
38 KC135TopBoom : Yeah, there is the internet and Wikipedia available for him.
39 Post contains images A342 : How exactly was the IL-62 a VC-10 copy? Please prove what you're saying. I repeat it again: the programme was terminated for financial reasons. The R
40 Rampart : My understanding and recollection, though I have no sources handy, was that Buran was terminated for financial reasons because it would cost too much
41 A342 : There is only a very small number of aircraft configurations that have become reality. Ilyushin simply chose one of them. But that doesn't translate
42 Rampart : It's a fine line, I know. Look at the very general similarities between the 707, DC-8, and CV-880. Not reverse engineering, and not an international
43 Post contains links and images BlueSkys : The Il-62 looks nothing like the VC-10 aside from the 4 engine rear config... Its like saying Airbus copied Boeing because they hung engines under th
44 Rampart : No confusion, I meant exactly what I typed. You are picking nits, it was a string of examples, not comparisons. Please, Mr. Obvious, chill. I'll agre
45 BlueSkys : I was not picking nits before. But now I just might, lol. Has the west ever build anything comparable to the Tu-114? It seems to me like a completely
46 Rampart : Sorry, I'm must be unclear, thanks for bearing with me. My original statement intended to exemplify "variety". You restate exactly what I'm trying to
47 BlueSkys : Absolutely!
48 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Sorry, not correct. The following 5 AA MD-83s (ex-TWA) were built in China. View Large View Medium Photo © Tim Perkins Spirit also operated at least
49 Akelley728 : And those might wind up back in the U.S. too. There is the rumor going around that Delta is going to buy China Southern's MD-90s.
50 Alessandro : Quoting Rampart (Reply 42): Then, compare these to the wide variety of produced (Comet, Tu-104, Caravelle, Tu-114). Quoting Blueskys I think you got y
51 Da man : Don't forget about the MD-90s with SV that were just put up for sale.
52 Post contains links AKelley728 : Not likely - the SV MD-90s have a different cockpit and type rating than most other MD-90s (including Delta). The SV MD-90s cockpit is a combo of a M
53 Yyz717 : When China starting open up to the West in the early 70's, CAAC started acquiring Western airliners. First with some 2nd hand Tridents bought from PI
54 L-188 : All the better to end up on a wingtip with. It's a problem with all narrow gear aircraft, they are tippy. Actually I don't think that counts as "Reve
55 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : Not really, there is an infinent number of flyable configuerations. However, most are not economical to fly or build. No, the west has never built an
56 Post contains images A342 : Hence why I said: Please describe those "engineering inferiorities".
57 KC135TopBoom : Single APU Smaller cargo hold No mechanical arm (like the Shuttles "Canada" arm) Max crew size of four Max time in space with a crew of 4 was somethi
58 Post contains images BlueSkys : The under qualificaations of BURAN are a myth.... Collapse of the USSR are the reason.... At the time the USSR was flying the MIG 25 for which the US
59 Post contains links A342 : Make that ten. Don't flame me, but wikipedia says: Buran could lift 30 metric tons into orbit in its standard configuration, compared to the early Sp
60 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : I believe the first Western-built airliners acquired by China were the last 6 Vickers Viscounts built, delivered to CAAC in 1963 and 1964. One of the
61 Jetstar : I remember reading somewhere years ago that China completely disassembled one of the B-707’s they bought and they used this to reverse engineering t
62 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : The US didn't need a Mig-25 equivalent, esspeically after we saw one in Japan, in 1975. The Mig-25 was built for only two reasons; 1. To catch and sh
63 GDB : Not too odd that IL-62 looked a lot like the VC-10, the British aircraft was designed with operating from shorter, hotter/higher airfields in less dev
64 KC135TopBoom : Actually 3 full B-29s landed, intact, in the Soviet Union, after bombing Japan, though all had combat damage or engines out). There were also a numbe
65 BlueSkys : I had a buddy that went to Russia and got a ride on the MIG 25 and he told me it was beyond belief! He is an ex cf-18 fighter pilot and he told me th
66 Rampart : I defer to you "experts". I'm only remembering reading from AW&ST a couple decades ago, on the deficiencies and problems of the Buran program. I don'
67 KC135TopBoom : There is no doubt the MIG-25 was a unique airplane with unique capabilities. But, your CF-18 driver buddy hasn't flown all of the western aircraft, e
68 FWAERJ : AA flew Chinese-built Mad Dogs? Wow... I wonder if McDD's LGB factory was at capacity at the time, or what? So does AA have to print special safety ca
69 Rampart : As long as small children refrain from chewing on pieces of the airplace, there is little risk of lead poisoning. Nor are the MD80s fueled by coal (l
70 Geekydude : Haha.. But don't be so sure. As long as oil prices keep climbing, it's only a matter of time before fuels derived from liquefied coal become attracti
71 Rampart : I was in Gansu province around 2002, and was amazed to see these enormous steam locomotives with great clouds of smoke, pulling freight and coal. The
72 KC135TopBoom : That is correct, the Russians gave a license to China to produce the Y-5.
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