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Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US  
User currently offlineCXB744 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6010 times:

Looks like the retirement age for commerical pilots is about to be raised. The bill has been sent to the White House for signing.

Status for Bill: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.04343:

Contents for the Bill: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...cong_bills&docid=f:h4343eh.txt.pdf

WASHINGTON - The Senate voted late Wednesday to extend the retirement age for commercial pilots to 65, sending the measure to the president's desk.

the bill would change a 1960 Federal Aviation Administration regulation forcing pilots to leave the cockpit at age 60. The House passed the legislation unanimously Tuesday.

The legislation would put the U.S. retirement age in line with international standards. The International Civil Aviation Organization adopted an age 65 retirement age in November 2006.

The retirement age provision was originally included in a larger bill to reauthorize FAA programs that the House passed in September. But with the FAA bill unlikely to see action in the Senate this year, members of the House agreed to move the retirement bill separately in hopes of winning quick Senate approval.

The bill would require pilots who reach age 60 to have a medical certificate renewed every six months, to continue to participate in FAA pilot training and qualification programs and to be administered a line check every six months.

Following international practices, flights out of U.S. airports for foreign destinations would have to have at least one pilot under age 60.

The legislation is not retroactive, and airlines would not be required to hire back pilots who retire before the measure goes into effect.


What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5998 times:

I am surprised we ddint hear about this before..this is a big deal to many ALPA members

User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5950 times:

This is great news.... about time..
One thought... some of the legacy carriers have business plans that have their topped out captains go away at 60 and to be replaced with younger less paid captains.... how will this effect their current cash flow projections and business plans...?????



Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5848 times:



Quoting Lono (Reply 2):
One thought... some of the legacy carriers have business plans that have their topped out captains go away at 60 and to be replaced with younger less paid captains.... how will this effect their current cash flow projections and business plans...?????

Actually, pretty much all of them do. In fact, it was the carriers that lobbied the hardest to maintain the status quo for so long. The fall out in all of this will be interesting, as will how the new CBAs that take into account this. I am betting the carriers go pretty liberal on the early retirement offers.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5853 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Been chatting to my uncle about this in the latest Flightline. There are several articles, one by Lloyd Hill, on this very topic. Jim said he's not flying past age 60 even if the bill does get signed. He's taking a huge chunk of cash for retirement before 60. I personally know 4 pilots that are with legacy carriers who currently are sitting on 2 yrs of sick just so they get their full retirement and don't have to fly again.

No retirement flight - no problem.

For those who enjoy trolling the friendly skies past age 60 - congratulations.  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5831 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 1):
this is a big deal to many ALPA members

Why did they oppose it and then support it? Why was APA against it? Wouldn't it mean more, richer members and their respective dues?

[Edited 2007-12-13 15:37:06]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5797 times:

So is there anything in the Senate bill that says the airlines don't have to pay 63 year old pilots more than 60 year old pilots for that "valuable experience" the airlines don't even want? This is one of those unfunded mandates. It sounds good, and I don't object to it other than the unions will somehow claim the 63 year old pilot who requires constant monitoring and an under 60 "babysitter" somehow provides more value to the airline and should be paid more...  Wink


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5748 times:

Well, good and bad.

There are many guys out there who are approaching 60, but seem perfectible fit to fly. They fly until they're 60, then they go to NetJets, Flexjet or a corporate flight department, and continue flying safely for another 4-5 years. I think its totally safe they fly until the age of 65.

Bad for the young guys, less seats being vacated. Thousands of young guys with the regionals waiting to "have a career", and this won't help.

Bad for the airlines. Those guys' salaries are way up there.


User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5697 times:

This bill doesn't really benefit anyone except for those airline captains just closing in on retirement that didn't make sound financial decisions and therefore haven't prepared adequately to retire on their own. Its screwing over pretty much everyone that isn't a major airline captain. My pilot group (a regional airline) is completely furious about it.

The airline career takes a toll on one's life. Airline pilot's life expectancy is years less than that of the average citizen. Think about all the extremely old and worn down airline captains you've seen in airport terminals. Not a single one of them was older than being in their 50s...and they already look like they're in their 70s.

As was previously mentioned, it doesn't help airlines either. Those guys sticking around are much more expensive than hiring brand new pilots to replace them. ALPA really screwed up on this one, they're definitely not acting in accordance with the majority of their membership's wishes and hopefully it comes back to bite them. Its one of the most selfish things I have ever seen occur in the airline industry.


User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5678 times:

FlyF15, you hit the nail on the head. Nopt only that but the flowthrough to bigger planes at some carriers just got that much longer. That means McDonalds lifestyle for us that much longer.


There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5594 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
old and worn down airline captains

Nope.... I see a safe experienced captain..... grey hair is better than hair gel IMO.....

But ... yes it will make the younger pilots think again about the extra wait.... and the airline companies who will now have to pay an extra 5 years ot topped out wages...



Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5581 times:

I heard it through the grapevine that WN actually lobbied for passage of this bill on behalf of their pilots association...


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5582 times:



Quoting Lono (Reply 10):
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
old and worn down airline captains

Nope.... I see a safe experienced captain..... grey hair is better than hair gel IMO.....

I see a captain who's life expectancy is decreasing every time he goes to work. Reduced rest overnights, 16 hour duty days, emergencies, etc are all wearing down on these guys and its hard to do when you're not young and full of energy. I personally don't think its a good lifestyle choice to continue flying into your 60s. Not to mention the fact that you just aren't what you are in your 40s or 50s.

Then again, I have a lot more gray hair on my head than hair gel.  Smile


User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5572 times:

I'd also like to add that there are a lot of arguments on both sides of this but the one thing that never comes up is if pilots should be flying airplanes at this age. Sure people say they should or should not, but everyone has an ulterior motive they're disguising.

If 60 is age discrimination, then 65 is too.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5539 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
So is there anything in the Senate bill that says the airlines don't have to pay 63 year old pilots more than 60 year old pilots for that "valuable experience" the airlines don't even want?

That is a private issue for the airlines and their pilots to work out, not one for the government to be involved in.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently onlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5529 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):

Why did they oppose it and then support it? Why was APA against it? Wouldn't it mean more, richer members and their respective dues?

A very vocal minority supported it. I am still firmly against it. ALPA National caved to the few who desire to work to 65. Basically it is the few with no life outside the airline that need to support their 6 ex wives. I have no desire to work past 60 (let alone to 60)


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5500 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 13):
I'd also like to add that there are a lot of arguments on both sides of this but the one thing that never comes up is if pilots should be flying airplanes at this age. Sure people say they should or should not, but everyone has an ulterior motive they're disguising.

If 60 is age discrimination, then 65 is too

Don't you think it's time the US got in sync with the rest of the world? If you can have over 60 pilots flying into/out of the US why the big stink?
You'd better get ready because ICAO is looking at age 67! At my last physical, my examiner showed me the draft proposal.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
This bill doesn't really benefit anyone except for those airline captains just closing in on retirement that didn't make sound financial decisions and therefore haven't prepared adequately to retire on their own. Its screwing over pretty much everyone that isn't a major airline captain. My pilot group (a regional airline) is completely furious about it.

Don't you thinkn you're being a little harsh? What about all the UA/US pilots who lost all their retirement? I suppose that's their fault?????


User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5375 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 12):
who's life expectancy is decreasing every time he goes to work.

Yes...true for everyone though..... but no one gets out of this world alive.... eh???

I liked the pic you have of the old WA 733 on your profile... I remember when we got those... speaking of grey hair...



Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4453 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5321 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
Don't you think it's time the US got in sync with the rest of the world? If you can have over 60 pilots flying into/out of the US why the big stink?
You'd better get ready because ICAO is looking at age 67! At my last physical, my examiner showed me the draft proposal.

Hear, Hear !

It has now been passed into law !
You young bucks can now ask for an age-70 retirement bill, as you'll live longer than your seniors !  rotfl 

[Edited 2007-12-14 01:35:13]


Contrail designer
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5190 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
Those guys sticking around are much more expensive than hiring brand new pilots to replace them.

I'm not sure how you arrived at that. At least here there's not that much diff between a new capt. hourly rate and a topped out capt. and a new capt. costs the co. a lot in initial trg. For those that want to scam the system I do not support but for those that want to continue their career go for it.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
Its one of the most selfish things I have ever seen occur in the airline industry.

Oh Please. First of all no one EVER promised you anything, no one promised you a capt. seat. Here at my co. where guys can come off the street and go to the right seat of an MD-11 or make capt after 5 years and then have the audacity to tell me "hey Jack you've had your shot, get out!" is really absurd. Also consider you have no clue what awaits down the road. I know guys that have ill parents or children to provide for or some other misfortune has tripped them up in later life and they need to go a few more yrs. So as the saying goes "Be careful what you wish for you may get it".


User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1597 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5169 times:

I'm still retiring at 60. Screw working 5 more years when I could be fishing and enjoying life! Only 32 years, 6 months and 7 days until the big day!


Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5153 times:



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 20):
I'm still retiring at 60. Screw working 5 more years when I could be fishing and enjoying life!

I certainly understand your plan and I'm not criticizing you at all but I too remember a time many years ago( I was already a 727 capt.) when I said "I'm out of here at 55, yep that's the plan" and somewhere along the road life changed, not for the worse but it changed.


User currently offlineTozairport From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 686 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5073 times:



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 19):
I know guys that have ill parents or children to provide for or some other misfortune has tripped them up in later life and they need to go a few more yrs.

Quite a few people have used similar excuses to cross picket lines too. It still does not make it right. What has transpired over the last few days is the second most selfish thing I has ever seen in aviation, no other way to cut it. The very senior just gave themselves 5 more years at the top of the totem pole, while EVERYONE on the lower rungs gets the droppings. Forget "life changing", you knew the deal when you signed up for the job and now at the 11th hour the deal has been changed to benefit a few. Add to this that the law change has done NOTHING to make the skies safer, then the hypocrisy of the day really makes for a bitter pill.



Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
User currently offlineTropicBird From United States of America, joined May 2005, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

It has been signed by the President and is now law.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-pilots-age-65-bill-into-law.html


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4952 times:



Quoting Tozairport (Reply 22):
Forget "life changing", you knew the deal when you signed up for the job and now at the 11th hour the deal has been changed to benefit a few.

What is that supposed to mean? "knew the deal..?" "..and now in the 11th hour" maybe if you mean for me but over the last few years this has been in the works there have been 1000s of guys who left without a choice.I'm always remembering what a buddy had told to him back in the 70s when he interviewed with UA. "would you take this job if I told you that you'd NEVER make capt"? At the time that was a real possibility but guys keep taking the jobs didn't they? And really I bet you don't find that many that will go to 65 anyway.


25 MaverickM11 : I'm not surprised one bit. Welcome to your union. Why?
26 FlyPNS1 : I would say that any junior pilot that feels this way is being pretty selfish too. The only reason a young pilot would feel the way you describe is i
27 2H4 : Too many people seem to be forming a motive/opinion and then searching for evidence to support it. Wouldn't it be more prudent to first examine all t
28 ShyFlyer : This reminds me of a former USAirways Captain by the name of Thomas Block. He wrote for FLYING and before that Plane & Pilot and probably other publi
29 Ckfred : The reason is that AA has a lot of junior captains and senior F/Os who haven't been able to move up since 9/11, because of the downturn in the indust
30 Post contains images FXramper : Agreed. It handcuffs the pilots and union to negotiate. Undoubtedly the airline will use this as leverage in negotiations for a new pilot contract. W
31 TaxPilot : Easy guys, easy. Those currently flying in junior slots will appreciate it in the long run. Congratulations to my contemporaries who choose to stay on
32 PhilSquares : You just answered the question of why it won't make much of a difference. If the industry was stagnant, with no growth, I would agree. However, if yo
33 FXramper : This is APA Communications Committee Chairman Captain Karl Schricker with the APA Information Hotline for Friday, December 14. PRESIDENT BUSH SIGNS AG
34 Post contains links Greg3322 : I just received this email from the FAA: InFO - President Today Signed Age 65 Into Law Notice Number: NOTC1079 Subject: President Today Signed Age 65
35 AirlineBrat : It's about time. Life expectancy is far higher than it was the the 60 rule was created. Besides, experience comes with time in the cockpit. If somethi
36 Lono : What does this mean? I know nothing of pilot regulations but don't they go on to counter this statement with these? And how can this not cost the air
37 Juventus : NEGATIVE. Is a lot more expensive to pay a very senior captains than to train a new hires. Why do you think the fractionals love hiring old retire ai
38 CosmicCruiser : What I said was that the diff between a new capt and one that has maxed out his/her hourly rate is not that much. I understand about the "fractionals
39 ShyFlyer : It means that you can be hired at a Part 121 air carrier at the age of 60 or older (up to 65). Not really. Anyone who obtains a First Class Medical c
40 Lowrider : That approach would never work due to excess rationality and logic. You know we can't use those when writing regs. When I asked this question to a re
41 CALPilot : Many issues, The sham of it all is: 1. Taking the FAA out of the NPRM; congress has no business getting involved with the matter behind the FAA, 2. Ok
42 ATCtower : I am kind of surprised no one has brought up the fact that someone at age 65 in Europe may be significantly healthier than someone of the same age in
43 Alias1024 : The younger pilots are angry because they understand the power of compounding interest. To get as big a 401(k) as possible, you need to get as much mo
44 Lono : Ok so if you are already out of your original airline you can start over at another carrier??? I was not sure about the regs.... sound like it still
45 PhilSquares : Depends on where you are. I have a Singapore and JAA license, both of which require a Class I medical annually. For the JAA, once you're over 60 the
46 Flighty : It actually cuts the number of jobs. Each guy gets more years. Equal number of work years will be needed. So, fewer guys will have careers at all. It
47 Planemaker : The funny thing is that you might want to retire even earlier.... within 30 years they will definitely have airliners that are single-pilot and you w
48 Par13del : ATCtower reply 42 states something no one is really looking at in our new global dominion, we expect everyone to conform to one section of the global
49 Pihero : A few comments, if I may: The age sixty rule was passed totally arbitrarily, without any objective basis. The age sixty-five rule came after some very
50 ShyFlyer : I forgot about that, thanks.
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