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PIT-AMS On NW/KL?  
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6347 posts, RR: 9
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4683 times:

The Pittsburgh Tribune Review reported on Dec 13 that Pittsburgh was on the "short list" of NW/KL for service to AMS. The article quoted the Regional Air Service Partnership which was encouraging top executives to write to Douglas Steenland CEO of Northwest saying they would support the service.

Not sure how long the short list is, what the chances are, or what aircraft would do the service.

[Edited 2007-12-15 15:36:31]

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8216 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4571 times:

NW does have some additional 757s to deploy for 2008.

Then again, so does US Airways. PIT-FRA is a lengthy flight, but very possible.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4497 times:

There is still plenty of time for NWA to announce their plans for the Atlantic 757s. With slack in the 744 and 333 fleets, I suspect more announcements to come in the near future.


AZJ


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8216 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4482 times:



Quoting RW170 (Reply 2):
They say nothing but how unprofitable PIT has been for them, and now that they have cut service from PIT so much, there aren't even as many opportunities to bring connecting passengers in to fill up international flights from PIT.

?? Then why would NW do PIT-AMS...

PIT has some ability to support a 757 Europe flight. Will NW be the one to do it, I guess we'll wait and see. Back when US pulled down its PIT-Europe flights, it did not have any 757-winglet birds. Now it does. I give US PIT-FRA 25% chance, NW PIT-AMS 35% chance, and nothing, a 40% chance. People are eager to see what markets the 757 can rejuvenate... so PIT might get a bone here.


User currently offlineRW170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4432 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
?? Then why would NW do PIT-AMS...

I didn't say they would or wouldn't. They obviously thought BDL-AMS would work, and it's still around, so maybe they will add PIT if they get the right incentive package. As far as US, it's not going to happen, at least not under the current ownership. Since Parker and Kirby have taken over, they have done nothing but deemphasize PIT. US has been consistently and dramatically reducing service from the city, and is now closing the PIT crew bases and laying off ground employees. Each time they speak publicly or in employee newsletters and videos of future international expansion, they continue to emphasize that all transatlantic and transpacific routes will be added from PHL with a possible few exceptions added in CLT, PHX, and (least likely) LAS in a few years. It's simple logic. Why would an airline continue to cut service and emphasize growth from other cities and then add a nonstop transatlantic flight from a former hub that is now barely a focus city (if that). The only crazy way I could see it happening would be if a Pittsburgh corporation or corporations signed a deal offering US guaranteed revenue and profitability on a route similar to what AA has in RDU.



319/320/321/712/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/763/CR2/CR9/DH8/135/145/170/175/190/D9S/D94/D95/M82/M83/M88
User currently offlinePITops From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4319 times:

This has been talked about alot in the Whats Going on at PIT Part 3 thread. Check it out.


Ground Ops, Southwest Airlines, CMH
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4299 times:



Quoting RW170 (Reply 5):
I didn't say they would or wouldn't. They obviously thought BDL-AMS would work, and it's still around, so maybe they will add PIT if they get the right incentive package.

...and we have a winner. PIT-AMS is well within the range of a 75A. BDL was a nothing in the NW system prior to the AMS flight, but NW saw an opportunity. It's no different in PIT.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8216 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4216 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
PIT-AMS is well within the range of a 75A

And this may be the main reason why US might let NW take PIT-Europe. Otherwise, if AMS makes money, FRA would make money, and US could run such a flight. Would they, well their PR trends suggest no.

It comes down to a slight operational advantage for NW, being that they already have 757s at AMS to route into PIT. The same is not true for US at FRA. Plus, the range issue.


User currently offlineJawake From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4191 times:



Quoting RW170 (Reply 5):
I didn't say they would or wouldn't. They obviously thought BDL-AMS would work, and it's still around, so maybe they will add PIT if they get the right incentive package.

Ex

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
...and we have a winner. PIT-AMS is well within the range of a 75A. BDL was a nothing in the NW system prior to the AMS flight, but NW saw an opportunity. It's no different in PIT.

I would agree with RW170, if BDL-AMS can work, why not PIT?

And is this not what Boeing predicted with the arrival of the 787? And surprise surprise, NW is a 787 customer. Now I agree, a 757 makes sense with PIT. I think it is obvious NW agrees with Boeing, point to point is what folks want. PIT-AMS has a great chance of happening. AMS is a great hub, and NW is taking on 787s and will have room to grow.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4191 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
It comes down to a slight operational advantage for NW, being that they already have 757s at AMS to route into PIT. The same is not true for US at FRA. Plus, the range issue.

A 752 would have trouble with FRA-PIT in the winter and,unfortunately, business traffic doesn't tolerate seasonal cuts well. That's the biggest obstacle for US. Bridging a TATL 752 in from PHL wouldn't be that big a deal.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePITops From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3975 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
And this may be the main reason why US might let NW take PIT-Europe. Otherwise, if AMS makes money, FRA would make money, and US could run such a flight. Would they, well their PR trends suggest no.

US will not run international flights from PIT in the distant future. Hell they are barely running domestic flights now.



Ground Ops, Southwest Airlines, CMH
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6347 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3974 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
?? Then why would NW do PIT-AMS...

Because NW has a huge hub on one end of the flight, AMS that works very well collecting connections from all over Europe, Middle East and Africa.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
It comes down to a slight operational advantage for NW, being that they already have 757s at AMS to route into PIT. The same is not true for US at FRA. Plus, the range issue.

NW has no aircraft based in AMS. All are US originating turnarounds.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3651 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 11):

NW has no aircraft based in AMS. All are US originating turnarounds.

No, but they do already bridge 75As through AMS.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6347 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3628 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
No, but they do already bridge 75As through AMS.

But all are turnarounds. None based in AMS.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3600 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 13):
But all are turnarounds. None based in AMS.

No aircraft are based in AMS, but they aren't all turnarounds. They bridge aircraft through AMS to BOS and BDL. The rotation in the current schedule is DTW-AMS-BDL-AMS-BOS-AMS-DTW.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6347 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3537 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
No aircraft are based in AMS, but they aren't all turnarounds. They bridge aircraft through AMS to BOS and BDL. The rotation in the current schedule is DTW-AMS-BDL-AMS-BOS-AMS-DTW.

If an aircraft goes from the US to Europe, then turnaround and flies back to the US it is a turnaround. It doesn't need to go back to the same city to be labeled that. An aircraft either 1. goes through a city, 2. turns-around in a city, or 3. is based in that city.

Crews may call a turnaround flying back to the same city, but the movement of aircraft are not labeled that way.


User currently offlineIcna05e From France, joined Feb 2006, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3511 times:



Quoting Jawake (Reply 8):
point to point is what folks want. PIT-AMS has a great chance of happening. AMS is a great hub

Funny series of sentences...you are almost contradicting yourself here, even if I see your point. And you are totally right, it's just the way you expressed it!


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3476 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
An aircraft either 1. goes through a city, 2. turns-around in a city, or 3. is based in that city.

 Confused The difference between going through and turning around being...?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineJawake From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3426 times:



Quoting Icna05e (Reply 16):
Funny series of sentences...you are almost contradicting yourself here, even if I see your point. And you are totally right, it's just the way you expressed it!

Agreed, I was a little excited at the time, with the possibility of a PIT-AMS route. Your point (no pun intended  Smile) is true enough. Point to point is not the right way to say it. This would be better expressed as a long distance thin route, a 787 type route.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9116 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3216 times:

I realize this is already talked about in the PIT thread, but what the heck, I also think NW service to AMS could work. US may have more aircraft coming to them in the next couple of years, but are they going to "waste their time" with PIT-Europe flights? I really do not think so...


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6347 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3096 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
The difference between going through and turning around being...?

Well if NWA has a flight that originates in the US to AMS and then continues on to Bombay it goes through a city. If BA has a flight that originates in LHR to DTW and then continues on to IAH, it goes through a city. Various cities in Asia are through cities out of NRT for NWA flights that began in the US. Need anymore?


User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3067 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
Then again, so does US Airways. PIT-FRA is a lengthy flight, but very possible.

You can keep hoping mate!

But US Airways, Trans-Atlantic flights ain't coming to PIT for the forseeable from this airline. They ruled them out in there latest batch of cuts at the airport.

Giles  Smile


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7354 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2999 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Thread starter):
Not sure how long the short list is, what the chances are, or what aircraft would do the service.

As it stands right now the short list includes:
PHL
BWI
PIT
DEN
IND
CMH
RDU

This includes markets where NW / KLM has shown an interest or where the airport / local government has approached NW/KLM. Not saying that all are feasible due to demand, nor the right aircraft type (particularly DEN which could work with a 75A but never with an A330). PHL is not an if, but a when will in restart with a 75A ('09 is looking more likely than '08 at this point). The others on the list are wild cards if the right incentive package is put together then the potential becomes more likely)

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 2):
There is still plenty of time for NWA to announce their plans for the Atlantic 757s. With slack in the 744 and 333 fleets, I suspect more announcements to come in the near future.

As of now with the recent LHR announcements, the A330-200's are fully allocated, potentially one more available -300 for next summer, and 1 or 2 75A's available.

A330-200
1 SEA-NRT
2 SEA-AMS
3 SEA-LHR
4 PDX-NRT
5 PDX-AMS
6 SFO-NRT
7 AMS-BOM
8 NRT-BKK/ICN
9 NRT-PEK/SIN
10 SEA-NRT (additional weekly frequencies) / spare
11 maintenance / spare

A330-300
1 DTW-AMS
2 DTW-AMS (note 3 additional daily DTW-AMS flights operated by 744, 75A, & KLM A330)
3 DTW-LHR
4 DTW-CDG
5 DTW-FRA
6 MSP-AMS
7 MSP-AMS
8 MSP-AMS
9 MSP-LHR
10 MSP-CDG
11 MSP-HNL
12 MEM-AMS
13 BOS-AMS
14 HNL-NRT
15 HNL-NRT
16 HNL-KIX
17 NRT-GUM
18 NRT-SPN
19 MSP spare / maintenance
20 DTW spare / maintenance
21 ????

757-200A
1 DTW-AMS
2 DTW-LGW
3 DTW-DUS
4 BOS-AMS
5 BDL-AMS
6 EWR-AMS
7 EWR-AMS
8 ???
9 ???
10 ???

Quoting Bobnwa (Thread starter):
The article quoted the Regional Air Service Partnership which was encouraging top executives to write to Douglas Steenland CEO of Northwest saying they would support the service.

If the incentive package is sweet enough, NW may bite.

Quoting RW170 (Reply 4):
I didn't say they would or wouldn't. They obviously thought BDL-AMS would work, and it's still around, so maybe they will add PIT if they get the right incentive package

You said it.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2911 times:

PSU - good points... but I noticed some flaws in your a/c listings. This is what I've compiled for the summer:

744 - LAX-NRT-HKG
744 - HKG-NRT-LAX
744 - MSP-NRT-MNL
744 - MNL-NRT-MSP
744 - DTW-NGO-MNL
744 - MNL-NGO-DTW
744 - DTW-KIX-TPE
744 - TPE-KIX-DTW
744 - DTW-NRT-HNL
744 - HNL-NRT-DTW
744 - DTW-NRT-SHA
744 - SHA-NRT-DTW
744 - DTW-AMS-DTW
744 - NRT spare /NRT-MSP-NRT 14/3
744- DTW RON spare
744 - spare
16 total

332 - SEA-NRT-ICN
332 - ICN-NRT-SEA
332 - PDX-NRT-SIN
332 - SIN-NRT-PDX
332 - SFO-NRT-BKK
332 - BKK-NRT-SFO
332 - SEA-AMS-BOM
332 - BOM-AMS-SEA
332 - PDX-AMS-PDX
332 - NRT-PEK-NRT
332 - SEA RON spare
11 total but where does SEA-LHR-SEA come from?

333 - DTW-AMS-DTW
333 - DTW-AMS-DTW
333 - DTW-FRA-DTW
333 - DTW-LHR-DTW
333 - DTW-CDG-DTW
333 - MSP-AMS-MSP
333 - MSP-AMS-MSP
333 - MSP-AMS-MSP
333 - MSP-LHR-MSP
333 - MSP-CDG-MSP
333 - BOS-AMS-BOS
333 - MEM-AMS-MEM
333 - MSP-HNL-KIX
333 - KIX-HNL-MSP
333 - HNL-NRT-HNL
333 - NRT-SPN-NRT
333 - NRT-GUM-NRT
333 - NRT spare/NRT-SEA-NRT M,TH,SA
333 - spare
333 - spare
333 - spare
21 total

75A - BOS-AMS-BOS
75A - BDL-AMS-BDL
75A - DTW-DUS-DTW
75A - DTW-AMS-DTW
75A - DTW-LGW-DTW
75A - EWR-AMS-EWR
75A - EWR-AMS-EWR
75A - spare
75A - spare
75A - spare
10 total

Per my lists it seems there is at least room for another 744 flight, at least 2 333s, at least 2 75As and zero 332s. The biggest question to me is where the 332 for the SEA-lHR is coming from? THe 2007 75A routes weren't announced until early 2007, therefore I believe there is still time for June/July launches.


AZJ


User currently offlinePITops From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2804 times:



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 21):
But US Airways, Trans-Atlantic flights ain't coming to PIT for the forseeable from this airline. They ruled them out in there latest batch of cuts at the airport.

Exactly. US had no plans of doing much of anything from PIT but cutting more flights. Another round "rumored" to be happening in March.



Ground Ops, Southwest Airlines, CMH
25 MAH4546 : FWIW, I've heard that the new 752 trans-Atlantic routes will be from Detroit, but that was two months ago and things change fast. I'm also a little su
26 Cubsrule : Is NW thinking that the 75A has the legs for these two? So if it goes BOS-AMS-BDL, doesn't it go through AMS?
27 Bobnwa : if it went AMS-BDL the long way around, then yes it would be a through flight. The way the flight is now, it is a turnaround.
28 Post contains images BAKJet : I'm not questioning you but , where did you get this list from because it would be great if it were true that these airports were on the shortlist (e
29 PSU.DTW.SCE : The short list is based upon cities that NW/KLM has publicly expressed an interested in, or for cities where the airport /local government has express
30 Post contains images BAKJet : Thanks for the info PSU.STW.SCE, and to IND I say, Please offer the right incentive package!!!
31 Jawake : So any idea how short this list will get? Are we looking at only one city? 2?, 3?, 4? My vote is for PIT, IND, CMH
32 Indy : Do incentive packages usually come from the city or the airport authority? Can an airport authority offer perhaps credits on lease fees for offering
33 Cubsrule : So DTW-SDF-MSP is a turnaround but DTW-SDF-MEM is a through flight?
34 PHLwok : It would be nice to have another European option out of PHL. PHL-AMS peaked in the late '90s when NW ran a DC-10-30 (though it might not have been da
35 HB-IWC : The additional weekly SEA NRT frequencies will be operated with A333 next summer, and will increase to 3 weekly from last year's 2 weekly. These flig
36 Bobnwa : I think you have got it now. Remember I said this was aircraft not crews.
37 Cubsrule : Thanks; I was thinking of it from a crew perspective, and it wasn't making much sense (for DTW-AMS-BOS is crewed the same way as DTW-AMS-BOM)
38 Azjubilee : HB-IWC - exactly, see my list. The interesting bit about the extra sections NRT-SEA-NRT on the 333 is that it seems NWA intends to keep a spare 333 si
39 A330323X : US never dropped PHL-AMS service. PHL-BRU was the only PHL route to be dropped (and later resumed).
40 PSU.DTW.SCE : As of right now there appears to be some question about the number of NRT-HNL flights for next summer. Last summer NW flew 3 daily NRT-HNL flights (2
41 Azjubilee : PSU - Agreed. That 3rd daily HNL-NRT flight only operated for 2 months... I guess we'll see if it returns. Plenty of time to sort out the schedule. AZ
42 Post contains links PHLwok : I didn't think I was dreaming on this, and it has been a while, but after searching a bit I am correct in that US did indeed drop AMS in 1999 and res
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