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CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft  
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10154 times:

According to an article on epn.dk (http://epn.dk/industri/article1204734.ece), SAS Denmark looks very likely to order CRJ 700 and 900 aircraft to replace the recently dropped Dash 8.Q400 type... This will be discussed at a board meeting of SAS Denmark on Monday...

Quote:
"SAS er på vej til at indkøbe nye fly fra canadiske Bombardier, som afløser for de skrottede og udskældte Dash-fly. Mandag er der bestyrelsesmøde i SAS, hvor man blandt andet skal diskutere hvilke fly, der permanent skal sættes ind i stedet for de 27 droppede Dash 8 Q400-fly, som i efteråret var involveret i tre alvorlige havarier i SAS-regi."

Quote:
"Ritzau erfarer, at SAS Danmark på bestyrelsesmødet indstiller, at Dash-flyene erstattes med jetfly af typen CRJ 700 og 900 fra Bombardier".

I think that these aircraft will only replace the Q400s in SAS Denmark's fleet but will SAS Sweden also follow suit if a decision is made on Monday to order the CRJ700/900? What about Widerøe will they use CRJ aircraft on previous Q400 routes?... I'm guessing Bombardier will give SAS a very good deal on these aircraft after the three accidents...

Anyway please discuss!!

[Edited 2007-12-16 04:09:17]


Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10077 times:

That is a good decision especially the CRJ-900 is a very comfortable aircraft. The E190/195 would fit too but I guess there are some discounts possible.  Smile

User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10028 times:



Quoting SKAirbus (Thread starter):
I think that these aircraft will only replace the Q400s in SAS Denmark's fleet but will SAS Sweden also follow suit if a decision is made on Monday to order the CRJ700/900?

It's not SAS Denmark who decide, it's SAS Airline. I.e. the decision on Q400 is a SAS Group matter and is decided by the board and management of the SAS Group (although SAS DK and the other probably have been consulted). Unfortunatly is the article you refering from not very accurate and contains a few errors regarding this.


User currently offlineIcna05e From France, joined Feb 2006, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9974 times:

SAS seems to be running against the flow here! Operators are generally talking about replacing regional jets with turboprop here and there. What about the supposed fuel savings on short distances?
I guess they don't have so many options, they could have stricken a deal with Bombardier. I just feel strange to replace turboprops these days.


User currently offlineDeltaAVL From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1893 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9907 times:

I'm kind of surprised they stuck with Bombardier, considering the problems with their Q400s. But this should work out well for SAS, especially if they don't get any of the fuel-guzzling -200s.


"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9828 times:

Basically Bombardier has go give a really good price to save their face, perhaps this is the only option SAS can afford?

User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 9664 times:

It's not really surprising that SAS are likely to go for Bombardier... Bombardier will no doubt offer a very good price for the aircraft, hopefully eliminating the need to pay compensation to SAS if it is demanded...

What i wonder is how many frames they might order? Maybe 20 to begin with? I think some previous Dash 8 routes are performing quite well using larger equipment..

Quoting Icna05e (Reply 3):
Operators are generally talking about replacing regional jets with turboprop here and there.

From a personal point of view i'm glad they want to replace the Q400 with RJs... i don't like flying turboprops.. Even the Q400 is quite noisy and shaky inside albeit less so than other props.. I'm still hoping they will go for Embraer... But it seems very unlikely now.



Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3437 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 9652 times:



Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 4):
I'm kind of surprised they stuck with Bombardier, considering the problems with their Q400s. But this should work out well for SAS, especially if they don't get any of the fuel-guzzling -200s.

I would have thought that ATRs would have been a good replacement. But I guess the dicounts must be significant enough from Bombardier to make them go with RJs.

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 9572 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 7):
I would have thought that ATRs would have been a good replacement. But I guess the dicounts must be significant enough from Bombardier to make them go with RJs.

The ATR is significantly slower than the Q400. SK used their Q400s on some fairly long sectors, up to about 3 hours in a few cases if not mistaken. ATR flight time on those routes would be quite a bit longer.


User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2296 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 9552 times:

SAS in all their statements were on one hand saying the Q400 had lost the confidence of the traveling public there, and on another hand very complimentary towards Bombardier. At the time I thought it was to protect their butt from lawsuits. But now it kind of makes sense if this article is true. I would imagine Bombardier may even take back the Q400's as part of the deal.

User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 9553 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
Quoting AA1818 (Reply 7):
I would have thought that ATRs would have been a good replacement. But I guess the dicounts must be significant enough from Bombardier to make them go with RJs.

The ATR is significantly slower than the Q400. SK used their Q400s on some fairly long sectors, up to about 3 hours in a few cases if not mistaken. ATR flight time on those routes would be quite a bit longer

Not only are they slower, but their cargo capacity is significantly worse. ATR "forgot" to stretch the cargo hold when the ATR-42 was stretched to become the ATR-72

Quoting Icna05e (Reply 3):
SAS seems to be running against the flow here! Operators are generally talking about replacing regional jets with turboprop here and there

That's mainly in the 30-50 seat market. Remember SAS needs a 70-100 seat aircraft as their Q400 replacement and the CRJ-700/900 fits this need.


User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 9541 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 9):
I would imagine Bombardier may even take back the Q400's as part of the deal.

Well, SAS' Q400 are leased from Bombardier so they already own them


User currently offlineLrdc9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 9503 times:

NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not more puddle jumper jets!!


Just say NO to scabs.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 9371 times:



Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 4):
I'm kind of surprised they stuck with Bombardier, considering the problems with their Q400s.

I'm pretty sure Bombardier flashed some shiney jets in front of their faces with pretty price tags attahced to them.

Quoting Lrdc9 (Reply 12):
NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not more puddle jumper jets!!

The way of the future. They aren't going anywhere. In fact, expect for the turbo-prop to make a comeback in the U.S.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2442 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 9337 times:

I thought SAS said they weren't going to order from Bombardier due to the DH8-400Q accidents, and from what I understand the CRJ family is owned by Bombardier aren't they?


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 9277 times:



Quoting SXDFC (Reply 14):
I thought SAS said they weren't going to order from Bombardier due to the DH8-400Q accidents, and from what I understand the CRJ family is owned by Bombardier aren't they?

In the end, it's always about the dollors. Better deal through Bombardier.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 9215 times:



Quoting SXDFC (Reply 14):
I thought SAS said they weren't going to order from Bombardier due to the DH8-400Q accidents, and from what I understand the CRJ family is owned by Bombardier aren't they?

SAS never said so. Much of the "war" between Bombardier and SAS has been made up in the press


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 9190 times:



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 16):
SAS never said so. Much of the "war" between Bombardier and SAS has been made up in the press

That is why i'm a little sceptical about SAS ordering Bombardier again.. Although the CRJ series doesn't have any of the same problems that the Q400 had, the name Bombardier has received a bad reputation in Scandinavia and the press might use this announcement to create more trouble!

But that is on the assumption that the public are stupid.. Let's hope they aren't!!



Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 9176 times:



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 17):
That is why i'm a little sceptical about SAS ordering Bombardier again.. Although the CRJ series doesn't have any of the same problems that the Q400 had, the name Bombardier has received a bad reputation in Scandinavia and the press might use this announcement to create more trouble!

Not really. It is only the Q400 that has a bad reputation. The Danes doesn't seems to have any problem flying Cimber (often operated on behalf of SAS) and their CRJ-200 and in Norway has Wideroe and their Dash-8-100/300 a very good reputation


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 9090 times:

Speak of Widerøe... Will the CRJ be used to replace the Q400s? Afterall their Q400s weren't often used at STOL airports... the main airports they were used at seem to be TRD, TRP, CPH, SVG and BGO...


Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 9000 times:



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 19):
Speak of Widerøe... Will the CRJ be used to replace the Q400s? Afterall their Q400s weren't often used at STOL airports... the main airports they were used at seem to be TRD, TRP, CPH, SVG and BGO...

They may be able to transition to some jet-equipment, but like you state, most of Widerøe's operations are based at very small airports where STOL capabilities are essential and simply a must. They will need a different option than the CRJ.

My guess is that they will expand their fleet of Dash-100 and 300 (if available).


User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8979 times:

Ouch, what is this going to do to profitability, and ticket prices?

User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8952 times:

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 20):
They may be able to transition to some jet-equipment, but like you state, most of Widerøe's operations are based at very small airports where STOL capabilities are essential and simply a must. They will need a different option than the CRJ.

My guess is that they will expand their fleet of Dash-100 and 300 (if available).

The Q400 was never used on any of the "STOL-routes"

Wideroes operations must be divided into two parts. One part in the STOL operations where they fly on routes subsidized by the Norwegian government, mainly on Northern- and Middle-Norway. All these routes are operated by -100. The other part is the regional part based at TRF (TRF-SVG/TRD/BGO/CPH) in addition to some routes from BGO/SVG to the UK, TRD-CPH, OSL-GOT and BGO-BOO/TOS. The problem with the -300 is that it's too small and too slow for many of the routes that used to be operated by the Q400 and is therefore not a suitable long term replacement.

Wideroe had 4 Q400, and was about to take delivery of a 5th, and it's these that needs replacement, not the -100 that operated on the many STOL-airports along the Norwegian coast, which has nothing to do with the Q400 and -300 operations by WF

[Edited 2007-12-16 12:08:02]

User currently offlineBrisseDK From Denmark, joined Nov 2007, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8858 times:

There is actually another option for SK: Outsource all regional flying to partner-airlines who actually specialise in that sort of flying, and then concentrate on regular mainline flying for SK.

1st step has already been taken a while back, when QI started CRJ flying in SK colours. It is my perception that it is an arrangement which suits SK excellently, and I haven't heard any complaints from QI either. Although, that might change now when SK starts MD80 service CPH-OTP in direct competition with QI. Don't think the guys in Sønderborg (HQ of QI)liked that move.

I would even recommend to expand that co-operation and put in some sort of incentive for the regional to further develop new routes. That would split the risk when starting a new route, instead of SK bearing it all. Further it would provide useful feed to the 3 hubs, which would strengthen SKs overall network.

Just a bit of food for thought...

Regards,
BJ



Frequent flyer based in CPH - mostly heading to: OSL, HEL, KEF, FAE and EWR
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8847 times:

Does WF operate currently a F100? I believe I saw that in Amadeus?

BTW, I will try to take pictures of the Q400 standing around at ARN when I fly back from Norway.  Smile


25 Scalebuilder : Great thoughts. Though Widerøe is supposed to be exceptional when it comes to service at desolate airports where "nobody would even consider serving
26 Scalebuilder : I completely agree, so I stand corrected. Should WF get any CRJ's, it would be utilized on routes where they previously used the Q400. That could wor
27 Someone83 : They are wet-leasing a Fokker 100, mainly used on the TRD-CPH route
28 SupraZachAir : I'd say the general reliability of the CRJ vs. the unreliable Q400 is known worldwide. They're completely different and although both are now produced
29 Post contains images OHLHD : Do you know by chance from whom?
30 Someone83 : Blueline In addition do they also lease a Fokker 50 from Denim
31 CRJ900 : I won't be surprised if SAS enters into a big cooperation with Cimber Air, which already fly CRJs for SAS. Surely, it must be easier and cheaper to le
32 Icna05e : hm. And doesn't Cimber Air operate ATR? They could order more to be used on shorter Q400 routes...
33 FlyASAGuy2005 : Yep. Imagine the costs of retraining your pilots, maintenance going in a totally different direction, F/A training, ground crew training, etc. Boy, w
34 SKAirbus : Call me ignorant but aren't the flight decks of the Q400 and CRJ700/900 relatively similar?? Even though one is a turboprop and the other a jet.... M
35 Scalebuilder : You're right if we think short term. But longer term (say 5 years or more) it would likely be cheaper for SAS to train their own crew and operate the
36 FlyASAGuy2005 : Not remotely similar. Remember, two different companies initially developed these aircraft and they still have retained much the the systems from the
37 Horvik89 : What did actually go wrong with the Dash Q4? Was it only SAS?
38 Multimark : That might be easy to do in the USA. I doubt it would be so simple in Europe where unions are stronger.
39 Aeronut : If you go to the Bombardier website, I think you'll see a very small difference in dispatch reliability between the two aircraft. I hope th CRJ doesn
40 SKAirbus : Oh well for you Anglophone Canadians.. just blame Bombardier's problems on the Fracophones... Just like we blame all of SAS's problems on Sweden!
41 Post contains images Scalebuilder : In Norway we blame them on the Swedish too!! Noorwegians and the Danish do have something in common .
42 SKAirbus : haha well it serves them right for owning the majority stake in the airline!
43 Post contains images Fairchild24 : Dear Friends And we in Sweden blame The Danish or the Norwegians Merry Christmas and a happy new year Let´s hope for good 2008 Göran
44 JoeCanuck : Ok...first good chuckle of the day...thanks.[Edited 2007-12-22 02:38:13]
45 Post contains images SKAirbus : Glædelig jul allesammen!
46 Post contains links and images KaiGywer : I would love to see the CR9 in SAS colors. It's a very graceful aircraft and looks fast
47 Post contains links and images CEO@AFG : KaiGywer, here's a fairly good SAS CRJ-900 edit. Looks like a sweet little bird, although I prefer the E-jets http://www.spotters.dk/portal/topic....l
48 Copenhagenboy : and from my source, they say economycal would be almost the same
49 Hightower : Hmm... regular CRJ or NextGen? Maybe a combo?
50 Post contains images KaiGywer : " target=_blank>http://www.spotters.dk/portal/topic....braer Those are actually damn nice looking. The CR9 the nicest of course
51 ERAUgrad02 : I totally agree. I have a warm place in my heart for those "T" tail birds. Man how i miss flying on those B727's.
52 BBJII : I understand SAS Group are speaking to Transwede, Malmo Group, and Atlantic Airlines, about it's LCY routes. The CRJ family are not rated for LCY. At
53 Bravo1Six : No, they aren't.
54 Revo : SK is using Atlantic ARJ-85 on CPH-BHX weekend flights from 30th March 2008
55 Post contains links CRJ900X : Hey all, According to YYZ News, a Q400 in Wideroe's colour scheme has been spotted in Toronto. The aircraft is msn 4183, and it is a new-build aircraf
56 Post contains images OHLHD : Amadeus shows the Q400 again on various WF routes in Feb. But it might get changed. 3 WF 354 C9 D5 J3 Y5 S3 B9 E9 /TRD CPH 3 1210 1400 E0/DH4 1:50
57 Post contains images Bravo1Six : Sharp eyes on those spotters
58 KaiGywer : It's worth hoping for, but seeing as SK owns WF, and SK is stubborn, I wouldn't get my hopes up to far.
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