Knope2001 From United States, joined May 2005, 1615 posts, RR: 29 Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7291 times:
Wow...this is pretty serious news.
Big Sky is essentially getting out of the flying business, so it would seem. Their non-subsidized BOS flying is ending, and they're simply pulling up stakes in six EAS cities...Watertown (NY), Massena, Ogdensburg, Cape Girardeau, Jackson (TN) and Ownensboro. Also in the press release they say they will continue their Montana flying just until a replacement can be found. If they leave the EAS flying in the west (MT/WY) as well as these six other EAS cities, that leaves them with just a couple routes around Missoula and Boise.
I think we're reaching a point of crisis in EAS 19-seat flying. In the past 18 months or so, Air Midwest/Mesa, Scenic, Skyway, Commutair, Regions and now Big Sky have all ended (or announced an end) to their EAS flying. That essentially leaves Great Lakes for 19-seat flying, and they have already demonstrated an inability to pick up some of the routes they've been awarded in a reasonably timely manner.
Just 4 weeks ago Big Sky bid on the four northern Michigan EAS routes up for bids, and they were the only airline even bidding on two of the cities. Now it seems highly doubtful they're interested.
If this means more Saabs and Embraers in more EAS cities, that's probably good for passengers and demand. However those aircraft are a lot more expensive and may well price more EAS cities out of the network, including some really remote places. Not to mention that some airports in EAS are not readily able to handle 30+ seat aircraft.
MtnWest1979 From United States, joined Nov 2005, 1386 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7076 times:
Well, this is bad news for me as I work @ BOI and have friends that work for GQ. Found out of this in a text msg. Too bad for all employees.
I wonder how long it will take to find a replacement carrier for MT EAS locations? Perhaps they will let GQ fold and leave these places without service until one is selected. Assuming, of course, anyone wants to. Maybe Great Lakes will get into Sidney,MT yet.
ScottB From United States, joined Jul 2000, 4282 posts, RR: 34 Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7063 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4): Only a handful of the routes (IIRC, just three - BOS-YFC/YQB/BGR) replaced previous DL flying.
BOS-TTN and BOS-BTV were also prior Delta Connection routes.
Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 5): I think we're reaching a point of crisis in EAS 19-seat flying. In the past 18 months or so, Air Midwest/Mesa, Scenic, Skyway, Commutair, Regions and now Big Sky have all ended (or announced an end) to their EAS flying.
Well, if you look at the numbers MAIR published for the third quarter, Big Sky's CASM was up at just under 40 cents/mile, while RASM was around 31 cents/mile. As far as I can tell, GQ was generating losses of roughly $1.4 million/month, and this is during a quarter which ought to be strong (although to be fair, they were probably incurring significant startup costs).
As I've said in other threads, their reliability out of BOS was terrible. I'd see the departures screens in Terminal A with practically every Delta & Comair flight showing at or near on-time, while the Big Sky flights would have multi-hour delays or outright cancellations.
Rcardinale From United States, joined Nov 2005, 189 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6905 times:
Wow that sucks! not even a year after they started flying out of BOS they are quitting too bad it didn't work out I enjoyed seeing their planes here. Maybe Cape Air can pick up some of the slack now that they are starting to expand their horizons to places like VT.
Knope2001 From United States, joined May 2005, 1615 posts, RR: 29 Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6712 times:
Most likely they'll be out of luck until another airline bids and is selected. The DoT could order Big Sky to continue to serve these markets, but I'm not sure they'll play hardball like that because Big Sky is closing up shop in that corner of the world, and seemingly, closing up in general. They can order all they want, but short of litigation there's not all that much they can do against Big Sky.
If I had to guess, it will be like the cities which lost service when Regions Air shut down in March. It was 7-8+ months for service to return.
RJNUT From United States, joined Dec 1999, 1002 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6674 times:
Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 5): think we're reaching a point of crisis in EAS 19-seat flying. In the past 18 months or so, Air Midwest/Mesa, Scenic, Skyway, Commutair, Regions and now Big Sky have all ended (or announced an end) to their EAS flying. That essentially leaves Great Lakes for 19-seat flying, and they have already demonstrated an inability to pick up some of the routes they've been awarded in a reasonably timely manner
EXACTYLY!
how about this solution?
a massive order for q400s, code sharing w/ some legacy to a big hub and tag -ending the EAS cities to another mid level city and everbody's happy///..EAS pays the difference to fly from, say MBS-APN from ORD-APN and there you have it!
a re-entry of good sized turbo props will have to be part of any picture to serve these smaller communities~
the nineteen seaters are dead!
The Q400 is a 70 seat aircraft, and new aircraft are expensive as it is
Quoting RJNUT (Reply 16): code sharing w/ some legacy to a big hub and tag -ending the EAS cities to another mid level city and everbody's happy///
They are codesharing, although a city like BOS wasn't a true hub operation for DL.
Quoting RJNUT (Reply 16): a re-entry of good sized turbo props will have to be part of any picture to serve these smaller communities~
the nineteen seaters are dead!
Before we jump to a 70 seat turboprop, a 30 seater from a reliable operation may be more of the answer. The problem is that many EAS markets are not properly connected to true hubs.
Quoting RJNUT (Reply 16): EAS pays the difference to fly from, say MBS-APN from ORD-APN and there you have it!
APN isn't an EAS city and its already served from DTW on XJ. Places like ORD don't need anymore small aircraft jamming up ATC as it is at the moment.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13605 posts, RR: 14 Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6360 times:
Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 5): That essentially leaves Great Lakes for 19-seat flying, and they have already demonstrated an inability to pick up some of the routes they've been awarded in a reasonably timely manner.
ZK seems to drag their feet when it suits them and move quickly when it suits them; they ramped the STL operation up from just MWA to 5 destinations surprisingly quickly.
Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 15):
If I had to guess, it will be like the cities which lost service when Regions Air shut down in March. It was 7-8+ months for service to return.
If they can work something out with the government for EAS money, ZK might be able to open CGI and MKL sooner than that. They have the much of the infrastructure in place in STL already. It would probably require a third aircraft, as ZK is currently running 20 daily flights with 2 aircraft (16 on Saturdays). Of course, that presumes that XJ isn't interested in either city (XJ provides EAS service at PAH, another 3C casualty).
Acidradio From United States, joined Mar 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 10 Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6288 times:
Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 19): I can see all the politicos lining up to force someone to fly these routes. Maybe this will be the impetus to overhaul the entire EAS program.
If all of these airlines cannot make it happen, even with all the subsidies, doesn't this demonstrate the lack of viability of serving these market in the first place? I'm sure that these are all remote areas, but still, if nobody wants to go there, that kind of speaks for itself. If there is no population to speak of in these places, could there be a reason for that?
I guess I have to ask - why are we spending federal tax money to subsidize porkbarrel flights to these places? Well we know the reason for that, and it's always a senator or congressman who pulls that off. Now if the individual cities, or counties or states would be willing to subsidize flights, that's alright. But why should we as a nation subsidize service to places which there is obviously little or no demand to go, and which serves very little purpose for the rest of the nation? Someone will argue that those places also pay federal taxes, like the rest of us. But I don't have federal taxes directly subsidizing the cost of fares from MSP to places that I want to go!
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States, joined Jan 2002, 4865 posts, RR: 30 Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5817 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20): Of course, that presumes that XJ isn't interested in either city (XJ provides EAS service at PAH, another 3C casualty).
XJ has bid for the EAS flying on some of these cities in the past, and may likely do so again for Watertown (NY) (DTW), and Cape Girardeau (MEM), Jackson (TN) (MEM) and Ownensboro (MEM). However, Mesaba is not cheap and is always the highest bidder whenever they go for EAS flying. For example, they bid on the WV EAS flying but were more than double anyone else. Considering they fly 34-seat Saabs versus 19 seat B1900's and also have more overhead than some of these other carriers which have all been plagued by operational difficulties, retaining employees, and being able to run any sort of reliable service.
Quoting Acidradio (Reply 21): If all of these airlines cannot make it happen, even with all the subsidies, doesn't this demonstrate the lack of viability of serving these market in the first place? I'm sure that these are all remote areas, but still, if nobody wants to go there, that kind of speaks for itself. If there is no population to speak of in these places, could there be a reason for that?
True, there are some EAS cities that no longer make sense in today's world. Other cities have poor enplanements because the existing service has been very poor. This includes connectivity, where the flights go to airports that offer limited connecting options and also includes service reliability. The service has been simply unreliable - cancelations, significant delays, start-up issues - to the point where the local communities have turned their backs on the EAS service.
If an airline comes in and offers reliable service to good connecting hubsites, branded as a mainline's regional carrier (e.g., Connection / Airlink / Express ) then some of these markets can be successful with a limited about of subsidy.
Other markets have no hope and simply need to be ended.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13605 posts, RR: 14 Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5654 times:
Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 22):
XJ has bid for the EAS flying on some of these cities in the past, and may likely do so again for Watertown (NY) (DTW), and Cape Girardeau (MEM), Jackson (TN) (MEM) and Ownensboro (MEM).
I think XJ would probably have a hard time making MKL work even if they were to get an EAS contract. It's too close to Memphis for any meaningful local traffic, and Saabs are, as you pointed out, fairly large for EAS. Of course, ZK may wind up making this a moot point, as they would almost certainly underbid XJ.
Commavia From United States, joined Apr 2005, 6799 posts, RR: 59 Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5593 times:
Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 5): I think we're reaching a point of crisis in EAS 19-seat flying.
It's just not economic anymore. It's not realistic.
With Jet A prices where they are, the threshold for economic viability in smaller markets and smaller communities around the U.S. is significantly higher than it used to be. It's becoming more and more difficult to fill 50-seat props, to say nothing of 50-seat jets. In this type of environment, it's really hard to justify the operation of an entire flight, along with many of the same costs associated with flying bigger planes, and yet they can only fill 19 seats.
Even at 100% load factors day-in, day-out (good luck), it's hard to make these flights work - and the market realities keep telling us time and again that the fare levels necessary to support the higher operating costs virtually guarantee that filling all 19 seats on these planes, when flying in and out of some of these smaller cities, is just not going to work.
The only way they could ever keep this EAS thing going, in my opinion, long-term, is to actually all-out subsidize the flights: i.e., direct payments and revenue guarantees, at higher levels, to make these flights profitable.
Otherwise, for a lot of these EAS cities' air service levels, it's just over.
DALMD88 From United States, joined Jul 2000, 1987 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5315 times:
Sad to see GQ leaving BOS. I was hoping to see them start BOS-SYR for my own use, but now I'm stuck driving five hours or ID90 on US. I too noticed a lot of CXD flights on the board for gate A1 in the past few months. When they first started they were doing pretty good. I heard the loads into ART were actually good. There is a fair amount of government traffic into there with the Army base. I'm sure this EAS city will get service soon. I'm suprised ALB and SYR didn't show much traffic. When I worked for Mohawk back in the 90's there were three airlines doing these routes. Back then there was enough traffic to fill all three operators. I guess the Upstate Ny economy is even worse now than when I lived there. I imagine DL will get someone to fill the gap in a few of the cities GQ was flying to, but not many.
MasseyBrown From United States, joined Dec 2002, 4031 posts, RR: 8 Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5376 times:
Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 15): it will be like the cities which lost service when Regions Air shut down in March. It was 7-8+ months for service to return.
Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 19): Maybe this will be the impetus to overhaul the entire EAS program.
EMB170 From United States, joined Nov 2007, 459 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5416 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 24): Even at 100% load factors day-in, day-out (good luck), it's hard to make these flights work - and the market realities keep telling us time and again that the fare levels necessary to support the higher operating costs virtually guarantee that filling all 19 seats on these planes, when flying in and out of some of these smaller cities, is just not going to work.
The only way they could ever keep this EAS thing going, in my opinion, long-term, is to actually all-out subsidize the flights: i.e., direct payments and revenue guarantees, at higher levels, to make these flights profitable.
Otherwise, for a lot of these EAS cities' air service levels, it's just over.
Where are these smaller turboprops going to come from? Setting consumer preference aside for a moment (the whole don't-you-dare-stick-me-on-that-little-plane-with-the-spinny-things-on-the-wings factor), are there enough birds on the market (and in good enough condition) to be able to offer the service? Anymore, for a small market, your choices of new (or like-new) build birds boils down to 4: Q200, CRJ-200, EMB-135/145, and the ATR-42. Moreover, with few exceptions, airlines are fairly reticent to introduce new types into their fleets, so unless the city can profitably support a CRJ or ERJ, the list of operators willing to blow money for purchase/lease and the subsequent training of Q200/300 or ATR-42 pilots becomes dreadfully thin.
Add to this our rapidly deteriorating air-traffic-control system, and the fact that airlines are shedding 50 seat RJ markets, despite high load and profitability factors, and the picture looks even darker. Hey, if BGM, ERI, TUP, and MGM are having a hard time holding onto their CRJ-200 service, what does that say about communities like CGI, and MKL that are hanging onto B1900 service by their fingernails?
What could happen is one of two things (IMHO):
1) It could just mean that the new reality is that fewer cities have air service. Unless you're large enough to profitably support 50+ (and more likely 70+) seaters at your gates, AND are also the only ballgame in town for a couple of hundred miles, don't expect many takers.
2) We could see a new generation of hub cities...secondary hubs that really aren't hubs, but are more meant to take the low priority, EAS and smaller city markets away from the big hubs so that the big hubs can send out flights to the more important (read: profitable) destinations. CO is already moving in that direction; they're adding flights at CLE so as to relieve pressure from EWR. The problem with this approach is that it creates a customer service problem in that many customers are forced to double connect... in turn creating a "vicious circle" effect where the city loses even more traffic because it's not well-enough connected, and the loads and yields fall off even further.
Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
MasseyBrown From United States, joined Dec 2002, 4031 posts, RR: 8 Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5247 times:
Actually there are more choices, one being to force the big carriers to resume cross-subsidization of these routes. That choice might appeal to a more leftist government than we have today.
MtnWest1979 From United States, joined Nov 2005, 1386 posts, RR: 2 Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5118 times:
Well, should be no problem for ZK to get more 1900s, they can just use the ones GQ will be getting rid of. Maybe someone like Frontier Flying Service from Alaska could try an attempt at some EAS service in the lower 48. They seem to have good experience with 1900s. I mean it would not be new to them.
Or, Some Johnny-come-lately put an old Navajo in use on some of these routes, never being able to make money and leave after 2 years. Will be interesting to see what happens.
Knope2001 From United States, joined May 2005, 1615 posts, RR: 29 Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4533 times:
A fundamental problem is that as the 19-seat aircraft has become nearly economically unviable, fewer and fewer airlines can fly EAS as an add on to their for-profit flying. That increases costs very dramatically, and makes airlines uninterested in EAS flying at all.
There’s a huge difference in cost between doing EAS flying by adding a few trips to your existing nearby regional network versus setting up shop in a new place. Back when there was for-profit 19-seat flying at many hubs, the cost to pick up EAS flying was relatively small. With existing infrastructure of the for-profit flying, adding an EAS market meant the cost of the new station, and the addition of a bit more pilot and aircraft time.
Now that there are almost no 19-seat flying networks left, the full financial burden rests on the EAS subsidy. The full cost of the aircraft, the full crew requirement, the full cost of the stations (including the hub) etc, all go to the cost of the EAS flying.
And even if an airline were to bid and win an EAS market with the very high true subsidy cost approved, there’s no guarantee that in two years they might not lose that flying to another carrier or have it dropped from EAS. EAS subsidy is not going to cover the cost of closing those stations, disposing of those aircraft, laying off those employees, etc.
In this way, there has been a loss of economic viability not directly related to rocketing fuel prices nor weak traffic. EAS is not simply a program to subsidize flying to Podunk places, but rather guarantees a minimum level of service to scores of communities. Not-so-small places like Lincoln, Charleston, and Bakersfield all fall under EAS, and if the airlines find those cities unprofitable to offer at least X level of service, EAS will pay somebody to meet that minimum level. Cities like Columbia MO, Escanaba MI, and Joplin MO were never subsidized until recently. As small-aircraft flying decreases, we may well see more airports that averaged 100 or more passengers per day still needing subsidy.
Certainly the argument can be made that the market alone should decide on where air service is available, and some do make that argument. However in some regards air service is viewed more as a utility, and that was the goal of EAS in the first place to determine where air service was justified even at subsidy. Most everybody agrees that EAS is screwed up, and perhaps the structural shift in the aviation network will force a change.
Getting back to Big Sky, I suspect that they bid for the eastern EAS markets believing they could spread their costs over a larger operation by doing some for-profit flying for Delta. That has not turned out well for them and is also ending in January. The subsidy they receive for their six EAS cities probably comes nowhere close to meeting the actual cost if they were to just serve the EAS markets. They’ve decided they’re better off just closing up shop than trying to cover their costs with the contracted subsidy amount.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States, joined Jan 2002, 4865 posts, RR: 30 Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4508 times:
Quoting PVD757 (Reply 30): Maybe BTV, YFC, YQB, and TTN? I doubt ISP, ALB, or ABE will see RJs to BOS.
I would be very surprised to see any of these get RJ service considering the current operating environment.
BOS-TTN used to be flown with a CRJ and was a terrible money-loser. Passenger loads were often only around 15-20. It will not be coming back. Given how DL has cut a number RJ routes out of ATL & pending for SLC, I highly doubt any of those will continue out of BOS. None of them are important or strategic to DL.
A330323X From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 52 Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4482 times:
Here is the DOT's emergency RFP for the eight communities, as they don't expect Big Sky to be in business for the 90 days it is statutorily required to provide service for. Of note:
Quote: Regarding specific levels at the eight communities, we expect proposals consisting of service with two-pilot, twin-engine aircraft offering at least 15 passenger seats with service levels comparable to those in the existing contracts. Specifically, we expect three round trips a day at Massena, Ogdensburg, Plattsburgh, Saranac lake/Lake Placid and Watertown, NY, and Cape Girardeau, MO; and two round trips a day at Jackson, TN, and Owensboro, KY, to any suitable hub. Carriers are also welcome to propose more than one service option, if they envision other, potentially more attractive service possibilities with subsidy requirements that remain competitive. In addition, because of the current industry shortage of 19-seat aircraft and pilots, we would even entertain proposals that do not meet the technical requirements for EAS provided that the affected community is supportive. Examples could include one round trip a day with a small regional jet, provided that the subsidy rate is reasonable, or multiple frequencies with eight- or nine-seat aircraft. As always, we would solicit community concurrence on such options before making a long-term carrier-selection decision.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
Knope2001 From United States, joined May 2005, 1615 posts, RR: 29 Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4377 times:
Quoting A330323X (Reply 35): In addition, because of the current industry shortage of 19-seat aircraft and pilots, we would even entertain proposals that do not meet the technical requirements for EAS provided that the affected community is supportive. Examples could include one round trip a day with a small regional jet, provided that the subsidy rate is reasonable
Now that IS interesting. I wonder what they consider "reasonable". The recent bid amounts for 19-seat flying have been going through the roof. With a larger network to spread costs over, I wonder how much it really would cost someone like Pinnacle if tagged Watertown NY onto the end of an Erie, Rochester or Syracuse CRJ flight, or did something like DTW-BGM-ART-DTW. The Mesaba service to Jamestown, Devils Lake, and Thief River Falls are all tagged SF3's onto non-subsidized trips, and that seems to be a way to serve EAS cities without spending as much aircraft time flying 40% full.
Azjubilee From United States, joined Apr 2000, 3036 posts, RR: 39 Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4357 times:
Poor BigSky... without its big brother Mesaba feeding mama MAIR, it couldn't survive. Maybe they shoulda worked WITH us instead of AGAINST us back in 2003/04. They wouldn't have been scoped out of flying more than 19 seats and forced to fly in dying markets. I guess this is one way around the MAIR letter... just disolve the airline and give the money to the shareholders. Wouldn't it be poetic justice if NWA could market these EAS cities into the network? Mesaba pilots flying the saabs on former EAS routes BigSky failed with. Priceless.
I agree, if you tag on these EAS cities to markets not tied to the government, NWA could very well make it work. The people of these cities get air service by a reliable and safe airline. Win win for everyone.
FlyPNS1 From United States, joined Nov 1999, 3843 posts, RR: 27 Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4290 times:
Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 37): I agree, if you tag on these EAS cities to markets not tied to the government, NWA could very well make it work. The people of these cities get air service by a reliable and safe airline. Win win for everyone.
With a SF340, I agree a tag might work. However, I have real doubts about tagging with a CRJ. Particularly since the carriers are already getting super high LF's on their existing routes why spend the money for a CRJ tag. I just don't see the profit in it.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States, joined Jan 2002, 4865 posts, RR: 30 Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4166 times:
The only problem with tag-ons is that it can be difficult to schedule in regards to getting the flights to align with connecting banks at the hubs.
That said, I fully expect Mesaba to bid on a few of these routes - DTW-JHW, MEM-OWB, MEM-CGI, MEM-Jackson, TN.
It doesn't hurt in trying. Whether or not they win them is up for debate, depending if Great Lakes decides to bid on anything. XJ won't be cheap that's for sure, but they willl surely be cheaper than if anyone bids on flying RJ's.
XJ has the available aircraft, as long as NWA is willing to work with them. With the number of CR9's & E75's coming online, that can backfill a few CR2's, which in turn can upgrade a few Saab flights, which in turn can add some new flying to the NWA network.
As AZJ said, BigSky was clearly a leach off of Mesaba back in the day. Now that mothership NWA took away Mesaba, there was not financially viable operation to support the money-burning entity known as BigSky. Paul Foley, what a guy.
MasseyBrown From United States, joined Dec 2002, 4031 posts, RR: 8 Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4080 times:
Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 36): Now that IS interesting. I wonder what they consider "reasonable".
I think the EAS law tells them what is reasonable. If the EAS point is within 200 miles of a hub, the subsidy cannot exceed $200 per passenger.
The DOT may well see more proposals for planes smaller than 19 seats than larger.
F9Animal From United States, joined Dec 2004, 3400 posts, RR: 35 Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3941 times:
Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 8): Well, this is bad news for me as I work @ BOI and have friends that work for GQ. Found out of this in a text msg. Too bad for all employees.
I wonder how long it will take to find a replacement carrier for MT EAS locations? Perhaps they will let GQ fold and leave these places without service until one is selected. Assuming, of course, anyone wants to. Maybe Great Lakes will get into Sidney,MT yet.
This is indeed very sad news. It seems that the move to the east was the final blow to them. I was too very hopeful that they would have grown and become a much larger carrier by moving to fly on Delta's banner. This is also such awful timing to announce this to the employees with XMAS only a week or so out. I certainly hope someone comes up with $$$ to takeover the routes and keep the employees working. Great bunch of employees at Big Sky, and it will be sad to not see them in the air anymore. I love the Metro! Another aircraft that is becoming a rare sight these days.
Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 37): Wouldn't it be poetic justice if NWA could market these EAS cities into the network? Mesaba pilots flying the saabs on former EAS routes BigSky failed with. Priceless.
Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 36): nd that seems to be a way to serve EAS cities without spending as much aircraft time flying 40% full.
ElmoTheHobo From United States, joined Aug 2006, 1155 posts, RR: 1 Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3922 times:
... or 3) Take it out back and shoot it, along with those 50 million dollar bridges to nowhere, and other useless pork barrel projects.
EAS has outlived its uselessness. Let these towns and communities front the cost of air service, it isn't a right, it's a privilege.
You are right about 2. Greyhound is a great alternative, and it already uses a federally subsidized transportation network - highways.
IMO you can have your roads or your government handout EAS, but not both. Pick wisely.
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 28): Actually there are more choices, one being to force the big carriers to resume cross-subsidization of these routes. That choice might appeal to a more leftist government than we have today.
Nlink From United States, joined Nov 2003, 312 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3879 times:
I have been saying that for a long time that EAS should be done with but always get bashed about it. Let local communities pay for the service, not you and I. I didn't choose to live in poduck so why should I pay for there 2 19 seat flights a day that average 3 people on a flight
Floridaflyboy From United States, joined Jun 2006, 1682 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3785 times:
Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 36): Poor BigSky... without its big brother Mesaba feeding mama MAIR, it couldn't survive. Maybe they shoulda worked WITH us instead of AGAINST us back in 2003/04. They wouldn't have been scoped out of flying more than 19 seats and forced to fly in dying markets. I guess this is one way around the MAIR letter... just disolve the airline and give the money to the shareholders. Wouldn't it be poetic justice if NWA could market these EAS cities into the network? Mesaba pilots flying the saabs on former EAS routes BigSky failed with. Priceless.
Wow, what a cold, heartless thing to say. I just don't get how some people on this site can find joy in other people losing their jobs. I know a lot of Big Sky employees at airports, as pilots, and at headquarters who are all very dedicated, hard-working individuals, who are now going to lose their jobs. Doesn't give me much respect for you, that's for sure.
Azjubilee From United States, joined Apr 2000, 3036 posts, RR: 39 Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3750 times:
I'm not being heartless, I'm just sitting back and observing the train wreck. This isn't the hard working employees fault. This is managements fault, lead by their ring leader PAUL FOLEY. I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of the beating stick and know what its like to face uncertainty. I don't wish that upon anyone. It's never good to enjoy other people misery. It's too bad the employees get to take the fall yet again for people that screw up ann airline.
I do think however, that things would be different today if the BigSky pilots worked with the Mesaba pilots when our "holdings company" (we were the only company) bought big sky and then proceeded to begin shrinking Mesaba. They had an opportunity to join us and work with us. IF they had, the probably wouldn't have been relegated to flying the 1900. Perhaps many of them would be CRJ captains today.
MAIR also streamed all the Mesaba profits to the new holdings company. They also threatened to grow BIgSky at the expense of Mesaba. Our hard work at Mesaba supported a money losing BigSky for years and then MAIR let Mesaba fall into CH11. Now this. Again, I feel for the employee... they were lead into the dark abyss by some folks that were in it for themselves. Unfortunately, the get to pay the price and clean up the mess.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States, joined Jan 2002, 4865 posts, RR: 30 Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3732 times:
Those comments aren't meant to cold-hearted toward the employees, they are meant to apply to the senior management at MAIR. This is the management team that attempted to screw over the Mesaba guys but now ended up really screwing themselves by botching the whole DL flying, and in turn essentially shutting down the company. Unfortunetely they ended up forcing a number of people out of jobs in the process.
The whole arrangement of when Mesaba Holdings (MAIR) bought Big Sky a few years ago was a shady deal in the first place. You can argue that Mesaba actually kept Big Sky on life support for the past few years by subsidizing the money-losing Big Sky operation.
-Mesaba Holdings bought Big Sky primarily to use as a bargaining chip against Mesaba pilots and NW Airlink flying to attempt a concessionary contract. The thought was that they could use Big Sky as an alter-ego and either a) shut down and dissolve Mesaba - then move the Saab flying over to Big Sky at a lower cost (remember NW sub-leases the Saabs to XJ - Mesaba doesn't own the aircraft), or b) pick up NW Airlink flying and play the whip-saw game with XJ & 9E
-When MAIR bought Big Sky they knew that they were already losing a couple million per month, just on the Montana / Western flying (which is all they had at the time) with a bunch of old Metro's. They were able to upgrade to a bunch of slightly less-old & worn out Beech's.
-Then Mesaba pilots went on their 48 hour strike pseudo-strike, and as part of the new contract, Big Sky was limited by scope to only flying 19 seaters. Therefore, Mesaba indirectly limited Big Sky's future under and essentially prevented them from ever becoming a NW Airlink carrier.
-NW purchases Mesaba Airlines away from Mesaba Holdings (MAIR), leaving MAIR with just Big Sky, cutting off the life support to what had been subsidizng Big Sky's losses.
-Somehow they got in bed with DL as an effort to attempt to remain solvent, and ended up biting off more than they could chew with the East Coast ops. Initially there was some thought that Big Sky was going to have an in with DL and perhaps eventually get larger equipment but the scope agreement with Mesaba was up for debate because of XJ's sale back to NWA.
The whole Big Sky situation was hidden behind smoke & mirrors for a few years now. The DL flying was one more attempt at life support which didn't turn out as planned.
Azjubilee From United States, joined Apr 2000, 3036 posts, RR: 39 Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3729 times:
This is a great article from the Star Trib in Minneapolis that sums this debacle up nicely. It also may give you the understanding as to why I've been writing the things I've been writing in this thread. The best part is the Paul FOley compensation bit...
DALMD88 From United States, joined Jul 2000, 1987 posts, RR: 13 Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3720 times:
A lot of posters here say EAS is dead and the answer is Greyhound. That may sound good, but many of these cities don't even have intercity bus or train service. There are very few options for travel out of the Upstate NY cities GQ served. It pretty much boils down to get in the Ford and drive to ALB/BTV/SYR. I think EAS still has a place.
Azjubilee From United States, joined Apr 2000, 3036 posts, RR: 39 Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3725 times:
EAS does indeed have its place... but the people who "need" it must support it. They have to understand that it costs money to provide them air service and just like any other business, it is attempting to charge enough to cover the costs. People want the service, but then complain about the costs. Which is it? This benefit doesn't come cheap. Pay up or drive. And don't complain about a turbo prop either!
DALMD88 From United States, joined Jul 2000, 1987 posts, RR: 13 Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3701 times:
Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 51): They have to understand that it costs money to provide them air service and just like any other business, it is attempting to charge enough to cover the costs. People want the service, but then complain about the costs. Which is it? This benefit doesn't come cheap. Pay up or drive. And don't complain about a turbo prop either!
True, it is a business. Unfortunally most of these communities really don't have the economies to pay the full cost. Part of the reason is poor air service. There is very little business in the true upstate of NY. The largest employeer in many parts is the NYS Board of Prisons. It is very hard to get jobs brought into this area without some minimal air service.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States, joined Jan 2002, 4865 posts, RR: 30 Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3705 times:
Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 49): This is a great article from the Star Trib in Minneapolis that sums this debacle up nicely. It also may give you the understanding as to why I've been writing the things I've been writing in this thread. The best part is the Paul FOley compensation bit...
Wow, that is actually one of the better written articles from the Star Trib. Normally they don't provide the full story and that much detail.
Man, Foley was ONLY making about $600K back in the Mesaba days, bringing Big Sky into the mix and divesting of Mesaba, bumped him up to $1.1M + $500K bonus.....simply amazing.
This guy might even make a guy like Carty, DasBurgerKing, and Goodwin look good. Heck, he makes Steeland look almost god-like.....
MasseyBrown From United States, joined Dec 2002, 4031 posts, RR: 8 Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3496 times:
Quoting A330323X (Reply 34): Here is the DOT's emergency RFP for the eight communities,
A330323X, you know as much as or more about EAS than anybody else, what does DOT do if there are NO bidders?
Flynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3274 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 56): The amount spent on EAS in comparison to the other government projects is a tiny pittance.
Irrelevant. Not one taxpayer penny should be spent on EAS.
I'd like to add that these EAS flights oftentimes were dispatched with ZERO passengers. Zero! As in, zilch. Nada. Zippo. In other words, a complete waste of money. Big Sky's current state of affairs is the result.
DALMD88 From United States, joined Jul 2000, 1987 posts, RR: 13 Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3161 times:
Quoting Flynavy (Reply 54): Which is the reason why EAS shouldn't exist.
If a city or town could really do with a Wal-Mart store but doesn't have the economics to support a store, the store will never get built. Period.
Sound like good logic, but I guess by the same token all road work should just be local funded also. If that little town can't afford to repair the bridge I guess they just don't need it.
A330323X From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 52 Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3071 times:
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 55): A330323X, you know as much as or more about EAS than anybody else, what does DOT do if there are NO bidders?
I promise to give you a very long and detailed answer later. But the short answer is that I don't recall off the top of my head a situation like this ever happening before. Similar ones, yes, which I'll discuss later. But nothing this bad.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3076 times:
People who keep saying that B1900's are in short supply confuse me. With Big Sky folding up, Colgan getting out of the market (or are they?), Commutair selling off to get Q200's, and Air Midwest consolidating.. there should be a plethora of B1900's in the used markets. Qualified carriers/pilots to fly them, and pilots willing to fly for those wages when they could be flying RJ's for slightly more... now that's a different story.
A330323X From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 52 Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3071 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 61): People who keep saying that B1900's are in short supply confuse me. With Big Sky folding up, Colgan getting out of the market (or are they?), Commutair selling off to get Q200's, and Air Midwest consolidating.. there should be a plethora of B1900's in the used markets.
FYI, about 10 (or 12?) of GQ's B1900Ds are actually leased from ZV. So it's not really the availability of the planes that's the problem, it's the economics of the planes and as you said the availability of the pilots.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
JBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3027 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 61): People who keep saying that B1900's are in short supply confuse me. With Big Sky folding up, Colgan getting out of the market (or are they?), Commutair selling off to get Q200's, and Air Midwest consolidating.. there should be a plethora of B1900's in the used markets. Qualified carriers/pilots to fly them, and pilots willing to fly for those wages when they could be flying RJ's for slightly more... now that's a different story.
I think it's a matter of the demand for second-hand 1900Ds and what carriers are willing to pay for them. Most of the 7 (or maybe 8 now) eight Skyway 1900s that have left the fleet in the past year or so have wound up in South Africa.
As far as the EAS program is concerned, I think it has its place ... it just needs to be overhauled to better fit with todays economics of the industry. I'm sure there are cities and routes in the system that warrant the service more than others.
It'll be interesting to see what happens with all these markets.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
A330323X From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 52 Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2903 times:
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 55): A330323X, you know as much as or more about EAS than anybody else, what does DOT do if there are NO bidders?
We know what happens if a carrier goes out of business. Just look at RegionsAir at STL, or a number of carriers in the southwest. The community just loses service until someone else can win a bid for it. Similarly, we know what happens when someone wins a contract but can't come through with the service; again, just look at RegionsAir at BFD/JHW--the existing carrier is held in until a new one can be found.
The only feasible hubs for ART/MSS/OGS are BOS/CLE/PHL/PIT. This is territory traditionally covered by Air Midwest, Colgan and CommutAir. Colgan would be the favorite, since they and Great Lakes are the only two carriers still very committed to EAS, yet only Colgan has upguaged all of its EAS markets to Saab 340Bs. It remains to be seen if they'd be interested in trying that here. Cape Air is also a possibility with its Cessna 402s at increased frequencies. Gulfstream should not be an option since they haven't been able to start the five cities they're already committed to. (3M also leases some planes from ZV if anyone was wondering.)
The only feasible hubs for CGI/MKL/OWB are CHI/CVG/MCI/MEM/STL, with some being more feasible than others. This is territory traditionally covered by Air Midwest, Great Lakes, and Mesaba. I think Mesaba will bid for and win these cities; Air Midwest may bid for CGI-MCI. Great Lakes shouldn't stand a chance given their recent operational problems.
So I do think that someone will end up winning these cities, but there will be plenty of weird proposals specifically encouraged by the DOT urging regional jets and small aircraft.
If there's no bidders for a specific city, I'd imagine the next step would be for the DOT to just issue another emergency RFP, which would probably work.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
Flynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2891 times:
Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 59): Sound like good logic, but I guess by the same token all road work should just be local funded also. If that little town can't afford to repair the bridge I guess they just don't need it.
Apples vs. oranges. Dispatching flights with zero revenue passengers "just because" due to an EAS contract makes ZERO sense.
Freshlove1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2861 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 56): The amount spent on EAS in comparison to the other government projects is a tiny pittance.
Exactly, like wasting the taxpayers money on the milatary in Iraq. How many billions is it now? Guess that EAS contract for GQ dosen't look so bad now does it? There is your government at work.
Atlantic Southeast filed to suspend service at MCN on July 2. The DOT requested proposals on July 13, and didn't receive any. The DOT again requested proposals due November 19, and still hasn't received any. (Personally, I think this would be perfect for 2x Piedmont Dash 8's, but that's neither here nor there.) So ASA has to keep providing the service until someone else steps up to the plate, although ASA will be subsidized for it.
Obviously, this is different than Big Sky, who won't be around to keep providing the service, but it's the closest I could get. Hope this helps.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
MasseyBrown From United States, joined Dec 2002, 4031 posts, RR: 8 Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2645 times:
Quoting A330323X (Reply 67): Obviously, this is different than Big Sky, who won't be around to keep providing the service, but it's the closest I could get. Hope this helps.
Nice research, thanks. I guess the implacable force of fuel price is meeting the immovable object of the EAS subsidy cap. For this to occur in an election year is probably good for the cities involved.
MtnWest1979 From United States, joined Nov 2005, 1386 posts, RR: 2 Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2488 times:
Moot point since ZK is going to replace them. But I think that is general practice, but that has been with airlines that were ongoing concerns, not about to close up shop.
A330323X From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 52 Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1822 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 73): I hate to bump an old thread, but what's wrong in STL?
The AmericanConnection codeshare they promised the communities that they didn't come through on.
Also, ZK is supposed to be providing two of the communities with 3x daily service, and one of the communities with 4x daily service, yet is only offering 2x daily service to all of them.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
JBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1774 times:
Quoting A330323X (Reply 74): The AmericanConnection codeshare they promised the communities that they didn't come through on.
I wouldn't be surprised if ZK didn't get the AA codeshare over something so simple as ZK wouldn't paint their planes in AA colors ... though there's probably more to it behind the scenes as well.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13605 posts, RR: 14 Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1632 times:
Quoting A330323X (Reply 74): The AmericanConnection codeshare they promised the communities that they didn't come through on.
That's more a problem on American's end, though.
Quoting A330323X (Reply 74):
Also, ZK is supposed to be providing two of the communities with 3x daily service, and one of the communities with 4x daily service, yet is only offering 2x daily service to all of them.
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