Looks like January might be chaos at Heathrow and Gatwick (and other BAA airports), if the BAA strike goes ahead in tandem. Results of that ballot should be announced later today
Gilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2903 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8379 times:
This comes as no surprise...
I just bet Virgin Atlantic are pleased they have chosen not to strike during the Christmas/New Year travel rush.
There seems to be a common misconception amoung passengers and the public that Virgin Atlantic is a great employer and treats there staff well. This very much use to be the case, but over recent years the crew have felt under-valued, pushed around and loss of many benefits.
I have heard previously from a source that airlines like easyJet and Ryanair pay there crew better than Virgin Atlantic and they are only flying short haul. Traditionally crew who fly long haul, are usually the better paid.
The airline has been hemoraging crew for the last few years, and always seems to be constantly recruiting - despite the airline only growing very conservatively. Its unfortunate that Virgin Atlantic, have not removed their rose tinted goggles and listened to the people they employ.
A quote from a Virgin Atlantic press release on the 2nd Dec:
"Unite strongly recommended this pay offer to their members because it is a very good deal, especially given the challenging environment we operate in. The pay offer reflects the huge contribution that our cabin crew make to the airline’s success and we have been told by Unite that it is the best to be offered by an airline this year. Our cabin crew have also benefited from pay increases of between 20 and 30% over the last four years."
Forgetting to point out, that there salaries have continued to lag behind other carriers for number of years, and despite the above so-called pay rises, they continue to be paid several thousand pounds less than BA Crew flying similar sized aircraft to similar length routes.
APYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 759 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8370 times:
This is such a shame. The strike will weaken the airline just before its main competition intensifies over the North Atlantic with Open Skies. We know how much strikes can cost, lets hope the airline can survive if this thing drags on and on - it didnt make huge profits last year did it? (I recall lots of loses relating to Nigeria?????). Good luck VS.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
APYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 759 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8337 times:
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 2): Forgetting to point out, that there salaries have continued to lag behind other carriers for number of years, and despite the above so-called pay rises, they continue to be paid several thousand pounds less than BA Crew flying similar sized aircraft to similar length routes.
But dont BA make a lot more money doing it? That may impact the pay.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8335 times:
This comes as no surprise to me, I have heard that VS FA's were paid only just above that which the AI FA's get paid, but that it looked all rosie with all the benefits they got. With those benefits withdrawn or in part lost, SRB is in for a headache and no wonder!!
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 25120 posts, RR: 60 Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8209 times:
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 2): There seems to be a common misconception amoung passengers and the public that Virgin Atlantic is a great employer and treats there staff well. This very much use to be the case, but over recent years the crew have felt under-valued, pushed around and loss of many benefits.
Yes thats the perception they like to market . Is this the first strike in VS ??? I have never heard of them going on strike before.
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
CRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2081 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8186 times:
VS FAs are often criticised in trip reports on airlinequality.com for delivering a poor quality service. When I went to a BA cabin crew interview some years ago there were lots of VS FAs there too... at the time I thought it would be the other way round, but they just rolled their eyes when I asked...
How can people not love working on the A340-600?? I'll do it for free!!
Boeing74741R From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2007, 1104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8183 times:
Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5): This comes as no surprise to me, I have heard that VS FA's were paid only just above that which the AI FA's get paid, but that it looked all rosie with all the benefits they got. With those benefits withdrawn or in part lost, SRB is in for a headache and no wonder!!
One of the pay offers presented by VS during the negotiations with the union included removing one crew member from A340-600 operated flights.
9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 645 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8152 times:
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 2): I have heard previously from a source that airlines like easyJet and Ryanair pay there crew better than Virgin Atlantic and they are only flying short haul. Traditionally crew who fly long haul, are usually the better paid.
I've heard that in fact, the most lucrative jobs are in short haul. Ryanair's pilot reqs are really high, and as such, paid a lot. I overheard a conversation between a few seasoned instructors of mine that Ryanair's FOs are paid much higher than their counterparts on long haul carriers. And they rack up far more hours per year too. In fact, to tell you the truth, I would now rather work for a short haul airline than a long haul one, except that Ryanair won't even look at you unless you already have a 737 rating + 2000 hours, iirc. So don't dismiss the short haulers! More cycles = more cash. Cabin crew also have to do more work as in the same time period, they might have to do two or three flights with very little time to turn the aircraft around and rest, compared to a long haul flight where things go by relatively idlely.
In my experience, the Virgin crew also tend to hide themselves away immediately after a meal service, in stark contrast to some of it's competitors, but that's another story...
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
APYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 759 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8125 times:
Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 8): One of the pay offers presented by VS during the negotiations with the union included removing one crew member from A340-600 operated flights.
They might remove a few more now to save the money the strike will cost. How many over the minimum legal complement do they take?
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21041 posts, RR: 60 Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8066 times:
The moral here is: when your company is making money, you get paid more.
I'm not sure where this concept of "I should be paid as much as everyone else no matter where I choose to work and who I choose to work for" came from. Unions I guess.
In reality, Easyjet and Ryanair are doing well, they pay their employees better, so why not just go work for them? Because you want the prestige of working long haul and the ability to see more places (and work less, both in hours and on a per flight basis)? Well, then I guess it's VS if you want to be assured of that. But VS isn't doing well financially, so pay just won't be as good. That's just the way it is.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Boeing74741R From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2007, 1104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8029 times:
Quoting APYu (Reply 11): They might remove a few more now to save the money the strike will cost. How many over the minimum legal complement do they take?
No idea, all I know is that there would've been one crew down than the current levels on A340-600 flights if the pay deal which it was included in would've been accepted.
And obviously one less crew member = slower/poorer service = unhappy customers = unlikely to book again.
APYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 759 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7990 times:
Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 14): No idea, all I know is that there would've been one crew down than the current levels on A340-600 flights if the pay deal which it was included in would've been accepted.
And obviously one less crew member = slower/poorer service = unhappy customers = unlikely to book again.
The chain reaction continues...
I think they already use more crew than some other airlines on similar planes and they seem to manage without all the customers running away. my equation would be
One less crew member = less crew rest + crews have to work harder + most passengers dont notice much difference
Whether theres 15 or 16 crew the pax wont notice much difference. Perhaps on VS the Cabin Manager may have to do more tasks than simply pour the wine.
On long haul do you really mind if the meal service takes 90 minutes instead of 60? Did droves of passengers leave BA when they culled crew from the 747 after 9-11? The crews just had to work a bit harder, and doing so probably kept the airline going.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 12735 posts, RR: 79 Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7892 times:
The military in the UK do not have unions, neither do the Police, though they have a body to speak for the rank and file, called the Police Federation.
I think I'm right in saying that having unions at VS is a fairly recent thing, since uncle Richard is such a benign employer, (the answer to that is, 'well you won't have any objections to staff having a body to speak for them in that case').
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21041 posts, RR: 60 Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7879 times:
Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 14): And obviously one less crew member = slower/poorer service
Or just one less crew member to sit around in the galley, chat about their layover indiscretions, and refuse to give passengers water when asked? That's the state of things at VS right now according to many, many trip reports. Maybe the reason Ryanair and Easyjet staff gets paid more is because they work harder? Just a thought...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Feroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3 Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7600 times:
From an e-mail received early this morning:
Dear Traveller,
As you may have heard, some of our cabin crew members have voted for industrial action in January despite their union, Unite, strongly endorsing our recent pay offer.
Our main priority now is to ensure that we can still get our passengers to their destination as scheduled. We don't want to let anyone down so have put in place thorough contingency plans, enabling us to run nine out of ten flights on each of the days affected by the action.
Currently, only the flights below will be affected:
Departing from the UK:
Flight No. Departure Date From To
VS25 9, 10, 16, 17 January 2008 London Heathrow New York (JFK)
VS39 9, 10, 16, 17 January 2008 London Heathrow Chicago
VS11 9, 10 January 2008 London Heathrow Boston
VS671 16, 17 January 2008 London Heathrow Nairobi
Departing from outside the UK:
Flight No. Departure Date From To
VS26 10, 11, 17, 18 January 2008 New York (JFK) London Heathrow
VS40 9, 10, 16, 17 January 2008 Chicago London Heathrow
VS12 9, 10 January 2008 Boston London Heathrow
VS672 16, 17 January 2008 Nairobi London Heathrow
If you are booked on a flight listed above, you will be rebooked on an alternative flight. Please visit www.virginatlantic.com for details.
If your flight is not listed, we intend to operate it as normal and get you to your destination, so please check in and enjoy your journey as usual.
Thomsonfly From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 229 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7534 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19): Or just one less crew member to sit around in the galley, chat about their layover indiscretions, and refuse to give passengers water when asked? That's the state of things at VS right now according to many, many trip reports. Maybe the reason Ryanair and Easyjet staff gets paid more is because they work harder? Just a thought...
As a Virgin cabin crew member myself, I am hardly supprised to see service inconsistancy across our network. Hardly supprising given the negativity of strike action looming for what has been months/years now with negotiations and votes left right and centre. The inconsistancy comes with experience. I for one, having flown for a few months knew exactly the amount I would be getting per month so haven't been wrapped up in talks and concentrated on my work. Crew who have flown with us for years though have a different aspect on it.
I work conciderably hard at ungodly hours through the night with minimum rest if any at all, serving the needs of hundreds of people dealing with timezones and jetlagg. That dosent ring any bells with my easyjet/ryanair friends! Fact is crew, from ALL airlines work hard, whether you fly domestic, short, medium or long haul but fact is EZY/FR and the majority of all other airlines are paid to work hard - Virgin Atlantic are underpaid against our competitors hence industrial action. We are just working towards equality.
Virgin Atlantic are always recruiting, fact is most people cant live on VS wages. People will always go to interview because of the virgin brand and the glamour factor. They'll soon leave to BA etc once they have recieved a years pay or so. Proof is in the pudding, and working with our crew regularly I've already seen crew come and go.
Passengers are very easy and quick to moan, but our onboard questionnaires handed out randomly show a very good performance and service delivery in all three cabins. Its amazing what passengers don't know ie theres only one drinks service but it dosent mean you cant have a drink... come to the galley!!! On all my flights crew have been welcoming and helpful at 0350 when you want a G+T with ice and lemon...... but with 4000+ crew you are going to get a few bad apples. I fly with alternative airlines regularly, and often get met by the bad apples! Only last month I flew with El AL and it took them over an hour to answer my callbell. God help having an avmed problem with them. They are in every company, and unfortunatly have yet to fly with a carrier who has 'wowed' me with customer service..... so it's not a Virgin thing.
On a last note, I do apologise ikramerica if I sit in the galley grabbing a bite to eat or a sit down on a 9 hour flight with no break, whilst you sleep, relax or watch movies. We only offically get breaks on flights over 11 hours and more often than that they get reduced. I did a 12 hour capetown last week with one hour crew rest (legally we should have three) so yeah apologies if I looked inperfect for a few minutes or had a conversation. We supply ear plugs use them if we are distrupting your beauty sleep.
Finally, to any future passengers of mine i'm too professional to let any of this affect my service delivery and am disheartened to know not all crew feel the same. Flying with Virgin Atlantic can be a very unique, enjoyable experience and I hope this stale state dosen't go on for much longer, its gone on long enough.
Plus, VS crew get their allowances paid cash in local currency, which means they lose even more money when converting it back to UK money for savings. BA crew get their tax-free allowances paid directly in their bank account, and have a worldwide company card that allows them to draw money in hotels at very competitive rates. There is no doubt VS crew need a better deal for themselves.
Maybe Branson needs this reality check to take its hard working crew seriously.
Algoz From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7443 times:
Quoting Feroze (Reply 20): Our main priority now is to ensure that we can still get our passengers to their destination as scheduled. We don't want to let anyone down so have put in place thorough contingency plans, enabling us to run nine out of ten flights on each of the days affected by the action.
How on earth will they be able to run 90% of their schedule? Who is going to crew the aircraft???
Thrawn From British Virgin Islands, joined Mar 2002, 53 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7408 times:
They will be able to crew the flights as only about 3500 crew members are in the union.
out of this only about 2000 union members voted of which 71% voted in favour. so if the other 1500 could be bothered to vote it might have not gone as far as strike action.
So 31% of the crew voted for strike action to cause distruption for the airline and pax, good one cabin crew.
Everyone in this industry gets paid more elsewhere, so why do you stay at VS?
The reason why you stay is because it isn't that bad a place to work and if you had to go elsewhere you would have to work!
The fun days are over and its time the employees at VS either get on with it or go where the grass is greener, the company has an airline to run not a country club anymore!
25 Thomsonfly: I rarely fly with crew who dont have a payroll number beginning with 4XXXXX. This means there aren't many who haven't joined in the past five years.
26 Ikramerica: This is why the standard dropped. VS in flight reputation has gone down, similar to AA. And it comes from being unhappy in your work. But again, why
27 BALHRWWCC: At BA we recruit quite a few ex VS crew every year.......... The storys they tell about there conditions are scary........... Many of them say VS is f
28 APYu: They didnt make £600 million profit though last year like you lot did they? They cited lots of losses relating to the Nigeria operation and the poin
29 G-CIVP: Thomsonfly First, may I say many thanks for writing some well argued points on the forum. I think you have some very valid points. This is my percepti
30 Thomsonfly: CIPV I agree with you, VS face hard times over the next few weeks and it's not going to be as simple as saying if you dont like it leave, or recruit m
31 AC772: What a shame, VS is such a great airline! Hope for the best everyone! AC772
32 G-CIVP: Mark, I haven't had the opportunity to reply fully but may I wish yourself and your colleagues, all the best for Christmas and the New Year. Yours, G-
33 Thrawn: I have read a lot about the VS Crew on this board and various other boards and on not one of them have any of VS crew actually stated what they want o
34 VirginCrew: I worked for VS for 4 years and left when I got to the rank of Senior crew (Upper Class) I agree with the comments that being crew for VS is a young p
35 Rightwayup: This is only the tip of the iceberg. People should be asking how a company which pays bottom dollar to its staff, cherry picks the best routes and the
36 AlanUK: ... and now the lovely Branson asks crew who will strike to leave Virgin! Great management skills I say BBC News link
37 747438: At last he has shown his true colurs. I don't know why the publicity whore is always thought of with such high regard.
38 Sketty222: Is this not against the law and in breach of safety regulations I didnt know that. Most airlines Ive flown have a couple of drink services throughout
39 LTBEWR: May I suggest several issues as to VS leading to this potential crew strike action. VS is based in London, one of the highest cost of living cities in
40 GDB: Thanks for the informed posts, from 'inside' and others such as G-CIVP. For me, not being affected, the big question is if the strike goes ahead, what
41 VV701: The omens for Branson are not looking good. The Times article on his letter is provisionally entitled "Sir Richard Branson tells Virgin Atlantic stri
42 Ba97: I am at a loss at what the issue is on all this. A person joins a company to make money. A person starts a company to make money. If the money is not
43 Trekster: I actually started laughing when I read the BBC article. I really could not believe RB could be SO stupid to say what he did.
44 Sketty222: I believe SRB is starting to show his true colours. Like me and stay or hate me and leave!
45 Thomsonfly: They are only mandatory on flights over 11 hours with VS, although you do get them on shorter flights sometimes. This rule can be different between c
46 Xtoler: Not nesecarilly. If one F/A can do a kick ass job for 50 pax and is the allowable safe number of pax on F/A is responsible for, I don't see anything
47 SteveSWA737: Thank God not everyone shares this opinion. Some things in life are worth fighting for. Yes. His message is, you are replaceable and I don't care eno
48 BristolFlyer: It says in the article that Virgin have 4,800 cabin crew. Is this right? I thought they only had about 14 or so aircraft, even if they have 20 that's
49 Commavia: The full text of his letter to VS staff is available here: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3114968.ec
50 Sevenheavy: Not even close. VS currently have 38 aircraft: 6 x A343, 19 x A346, 13 x B744. Regards
51 Leezyjet: They currently have 38 aircraft :- GVBIG Tinkerbelle LHR744 GVFAB Lady Penelope LHR744 GVHOT Tubular Belle LHR744 GVROC Mustang Sally LHR744 GVWOW Co
52 G-CIVP: Thomsonfly - Reading bulletin boards, some Virgin crew have commented that they fly less sectors per month than their counterparts at BA but have the
53 Singapore_Air: "Virgin Atlantic has never had any handouts and therefore to survive we have to keep our costs under control." Virgin Atlantic could have had a handou
54 Sketty222: Thanks for the response and clearing this up for me Cheers Lee
55 BristolFlyer: Ok, based upon 38 aircraft - that's 125 cabin crew per plane. Based upon say 14 per flight for the bigger planes, 14 for the rtn journey - that's sti
56 MaverickM11: Flight attendants are replaceable. Everyone is replaceable; it's just a question of how much it costs to replace you.
57 Thomsonfly: Cabin crew can easily access this information via the company intranet. FAQ section is busy on there so crew are well informed about implications of
58 SevenHeavy: There are many more variables to consider than simply dividing the number of crew by the number of aircraft. Assuming the figure of 4800 is correct y
59 AlanUK: That's because some workers are not short sighted, and are prepared to lose a bit to gain a lot! It's the same principle for any strike action, a sac
60 Bellerophon: AlunUK ...Are you really saying you could come back from New York on Day 3 and leave for Cape Town on Day 4??.. Well, without wanting to go too far of
61 Thomsonfly: When you call crewing they look at things like legality before offering you a flight, but I have before now swapped days off for a flight. Sometimes
62 Thomsonfly: VS are offering a bonus for people who do work on strike days from £150-250. They are also arranging crew on airport and hotel standbys. Crew down pa
63 G-CIVP: What is your source for this? It seems to be a direct quote from the FT? Reason why I ask is few people will use the phrase 'cost of capital' except
64 Singapore_Air: No, not a direct quote from the FT. When one follows the twists and turns of a company like Singapore Airlines, you pick up on the buzzwards and the a
65 G-CIVP: Would be grateful if you could post the link (although probably not alot of interest to the majority here). Had a quick look at the SIA Annual Account
66 BlueShamu330s: I won't be drawn into this argument. However, I personally think the timing of this unrest gives VS a good deck of cards and deals cabin crew a poor h
67 Hiflyer: Yeah you were..... Been in the industry a bit....and a few strikes.....and on both sides of the picket line.....and cannot recall anyone issuing a le
68 Avek00: Virgin Atlantic is basically the PanAm of our time.
69 BlueShamu330s: Aww shucks, and there was me trying to be oh so objective !!! Shamu
70 MaverickM11: He's 100% correct though, but it's never been about who is right but rather who has the leverage.
71 Aerofan: So SRB has said exactly how he sees things. He has made his decision, now it's up to the people who feel they are not being valued to make theirs. Can
72 APYu: I think the point of Richards note to crew was to finally quash any speculation within the crew community that he would come with his open wallet and
73 Algoz: As an ex Pan Am'er, I consider this an insult. How on earth can you compare a small niche carrier like Virgin with a pioneer of aviation firsts. What
74 OA260: According to Virgin Atlantic hundreds of cabin crew volunteers have come forward to enable the airline to operate a near-normal service during the upc
75 Richierich: Breaking news is that the strike has been called off. Please excuse the source but I believe it to be accurate here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/home
76 Kaitak: ITN teletext reports that both strikes have now been called off. A deal has been agreed on pay.
77 Thomsonfly: Hi A deal has been reached (my source: cabin crew intranet) and strikes are now cancelled. Virgin have adapted a recent offer for this agreement to be
78 Aerofan: What a big deal over nothing. So what offer have they accepted? Seems to me that as one posters suggested they, decided to accept since SRB was not go
79 Singapore_Air: Reuters reports that they accepted the original deal in the end after all.
80 Thomsonfly: Monday 7 January 2008 - 5.45pm UNITE THE UNION CALLS OFF PLANNED INDUSTRIAL ACTION AT VIRGIN ATLANTIC Virgin Atlantic and Unite the union today agreed
81 Thomsonfly: As mentioned above, the accepted deal is different from ALL previous offers. Everyone will be alot clearer when full details of the revised offer are
82 Aerofan: Mark Thanks for the information. I wait to hear the final outcome details
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