WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2395 times:
There is often discussion here about the size of US carrier domestic vs. international operations at their hubs. To help provide some clarity and help us all learn, I researched the size of US carrier domestic vs. international carrier operations as defined by destinations and seats offered from each of the carrier’s largest hubs within and beyond of North America. This comparison provides the basis for defining both how “international” a hub is as well as the ability of that hub to connect domestic and international cities.
Because of the time involved, I only pulled data for the largest hub (combination of international and domestic flights) for each of the six network carriers.
Data is based on the July 08 schedule since that is generally the peak for US airlines.
AA at DFW
AA and its regional partners offer 1.2 million domestic seats per week to 146 markets as well as 43,000 international seats (outside of North America) to 17 destinations.
CO at EWR
CO and its regional partners offer 487,000 domestic seats per week to 98 markets as well as 171,000 international seats (outside of North America) to 59 destinations.
DL at ATL
DL and its regional partners offer 1.4 million domestic seats per week to 174 markets as well as 188,000 international seats (outside of North America) to 71 destinations.
NW at DTW
NW and its regional partners offer 605,000 domestic seats per week to 136 markets as well as 59,000 international seats (outside of North America) to 10 destinations.
UA at ORD
UA and its regional partners offer 775,000 domestic seats per week to 128 markets as well as 54,000 international seats (outside of North America) to 12 destinations.
US at PHL
US and its regional partners offer 468,000 domestic seats per week to 86 markets as well as 78,000 international seats (outside of North America) to 20 destinations.
And since DL’s hub at JFK is often discussed,
DL at JFK
DL and its regional partners offer 190,000 domestic seats per week to 52 markets as well as 114,000 international seats (outside of North America) to 29 destinations.
MrLurker From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 48 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2327 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter): Because of the time involved, I only pulled data for the largest hub (combination of international and domestic flights) for each of the six network carriers.
If you don't mind, could you please post the methodology and data sources used in your analysis. If I can make the time I am interested in expanding it...
And from the analysis, I found the comparison between DL at JFK and CO at EWR interesting. DL is running at 37.5% international, while CO is running at 26%. As most of DL's growth in the future will be international, one can see that JFK will truly end up being more of a transatlantic gateway, as opposed to CO's use of EWR, which is that of a traditional hub.
A330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 47 Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2310 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter): DL at ATL
DL and its regional partners offer 1.4 million domestic seats per week to 174 markets as well as 188,000 international seats (outside of North America) to 71 destinations.
Please explain how you came up with 71 destinations *outside of North America* for DL at ATL.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2221 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1): Excellent topic WT!!! The only one I see missing is IAH for CO and we should be set. I dont have the data, but does anyone else on here have it?
I chose one hub for each carrier w/ the exception of JFK for DL. I might be able to revisit if I have time.
However, since most of CO's international service is to Mexico, which is considered North America, as well as central America, there won't be the huge bump that there would be for transoceanic seats as there is for CO at EWR.
Quoting MrLurker (Reply 2): If you don't mind, could you please post the methodology and data sources used in your analysis. If I can make the time I am interested in expanding it...
This is based on OAG schedules for July 08 which can be used to pull seats per week and destinations served.
As for the number of int'l cities from ATL, the Caribbean in this database is not considered North America, so DL's number of destinations are plausible considering their large presence to Europe, Africa, S. and Central America, and the Caribbean. Note however, that the criteria was equally applied to all hubs examined. Note that UA has very little service from ORD except on widebodies so there numbers are proportionately smaller even though they generate alot of revenue. The exercise was about examining the percentage of seats and flights, not ASMs.
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6780 posts, RR: 25 Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2189 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4): However, since most of CO's international service is to Mexico, which is considered North America, as well as central America, there won't be the huge bump that there would be for transoceanic seats as there is for CO at EWR.
When taking into consideration DL's ATL operation, did you count Central American Destinations?
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
A330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 47 Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2176 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4): As for the number of int'l cities from ATL, the Caribbean in this database is not considered North America, so DL's number of destinations are plausible considering their large presence to Europe, Africa, S. and Central America, and the Caribbean. Note however, that the criteria was equally applied to all hubs examined
No, they weren't.
US, for example, has 20 European destinations alone from PHL, which means you completely ignored their many Caribbean and Central American destinations.
(And btw, PHL isn't US's largest hub.)
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
Same for NW and DTW. PHL is US's largest international hub, but not its largest overall (which is CLT). Same for NW with DTW and MSP. The same goes for CO - EWR is not its largest hub - IAH is.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2051 times:
I didn't say I used the largest hub for each carrier - just the largest one that had a significant number of int'l flights.
Yes, the US at PHL, NW at DTW, and UA at ORD destination counts do look small to me. I didn't go through every file to make sure routes that I knew should have been there were indeed there. I do know that I remember seeing Caribbean destinations for US from PHL so I'm not sure what was missing but the international numbers, if they need to be corrected, can be done so much easier than the domestic counts, and I welcome anyone to recount based on the Jul 08 schedules if you would like to do so. If you'd like to argue for including CLT, I'm fine with that but US does derive more int'l revenue from PHL than CLT.
I don't think it will significantly change the outcomes, though. PHL is more of domestic hub when compared with EWR or ATL.
The database I was using counts everything in Central America and the Caribbean as outside of North America, so yes, it is considered "international" for the purposes of this exercise.
As to the point that DL at ATL actually has a low percent of international to domestic seats, that is true but it also argues for how much international growth potential ATL has. DL has managed to build a larger international gateway than some of the more traditional gateways by adding service to places all over the globe, even if it is only with a single flight per day. It is a question of depth vs. breadth but DL has managed to build a much bigger hub by serving points all over the world when compared to a hub like UA at SFO which serves relatively few destinations but most with large widebodies.
JetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1613 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2033 times:
Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 7): Same for NW and DTW. PHL is US's largest international hub, but not its largest overall (which is CLT). Same for NW with DTW and MSP. The same goes for CO - EWR is not its largest hub - IAH is.
Where can I get numbers that compare DTW and MSP for NW. It seems like DTW is much bigger than MSP in terms of flights and destinations.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
Ualcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1985 times:
I'd be interested to see how AA's MIA hub stacks up, especially in international seats and destinations and in proportion with domestic seats and destinations.
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3385 posts, RR: 11 Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1974 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
Because of the time involved, I only pulled data for the largest hub (combination of international and domestic flights) for each of the six network carriers.
As was stated above, MSP is actually NW's largest hub in terms of seats offered, not DTW, as if IAH for CO, not EWR. Could you provide these statistics?
Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 9): Where can I get numbers that compare DTW and MSP for NW. It seems like DTW is much bigger than MSP in terms of flights and destinations.
MSP is actually larger in terms of mainline flights, seats, and destinations. The only numbers where DTW is larger is international flights/cities served and overall number of flights (mainline and airlink).
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8): I didn't say I used the largest hub for each carrier - just the largest one that had a significant number of int'l flights.
Then wouldn't you have placed MIA on there for AA instead of DFW?
Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8815 posts, RR: 19 Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1925 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8): If you'd like to argue for including CLT, I'm fine with that but US does derive more int'l revenue from PHL than CLT.
I won't argue that. I knew what you meant when you listed all of those hub airports
CLT has close to 550 daily flights. Even though they only serve LGW and FRA, they do serve a large amount of Latin America and Caribbean destinations from CLT, but you mentioned that int'l in this context is everything outside of North America, but what if Latin America was considered? Just curious...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
Nzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1488 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1832 times:
To me it seems a funny comparing international and domestic flights but then excluding a whole pile of short haul international flights .. Sorry but every flight outside The USA is a international flight .. In my opinion talking about hubs with international flights but then excluding selected international flights ie like Latin America is just a way of misleading this topic .. Instead of saying International flights it should be Long Haul International flights ..
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16261 posts, RR: 52 Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1724 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter): CO at EWR
CO and its regional partners offer 487,000 domestic seats per week to 98 markets as well as 171,000 international seats (outside of North America) to 59 destinations.
I counted far more than 59 International destinations for CO at EWR: 67 Mainline, 5 COEX for a total of 72 International destinations from EWR via CO/COEX.
Amsterdam, Antigua, Aruba, Athens, Barcelona, Beijing, Belfast, Belize City, Berlin-Tegel, Bermuda, Birmingham (UK), Bogota, Bonaire, Bristol (UK), Brussels, Cancun, Cologne/Bonn, Copenhagen, Cozumel, Curacao, Delhi, Dublin, Edinburgh, Frankfurt, Geneva, Glasgow-International, Grand Cayman, Guatemala City, Guayaquil, Halifax, Hamburg, Hong Kong, Lima, Lisbon, London-Gatwick, London-Heathrow [begins March 29/, Madrid, Manchester (UK), Mexico City, Milan-Malpensa, Montego Bay, Montreal, Mumbai, Nassau, Oslo, Panama City, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Port of Spain, Puerto Plata, Puerto Vallarta, Punta Cana, Roatan, Rome-Fiumicino, San Jose (CR), San Jose del Cabo, San Pedro Sula, San Salvador, Santiago (DR), Santo Domingo, Sao Paulo-Guarulhos, Shanghai-Pudong [begins March 2009], Shannon, St. Maarten, Stockholm-Arlanda, Tel Aviv, Tokyo-Narita, Toronto , Zurich
Continental Express: Moncton, Mont-Tremblant, Ottawa, Quebec City, St. John's.
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6780 posts, RR: 25 Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1627 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 16): I counted far more than 59 International destinations for CO at EWR: 67 Mainline, 5 COEX for a total of 72 International destinations from EWR via CO/COEX.
I think he was talking about destinations outside North America. In this case 59 is actually the correct number for international destinations served outside North America.
I also counted the internation destinations outside of North America for IAH and I came up with 29. But of course as we know, IAH's largest international precense is Mexico, so if we included Mexico I came up with 68 total international destinations. Im not sure about number of total seats.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1564 times:
As a reminder, this study is a comparison of markets and seats from the hub to destinations within North America to markets and seats outside of North America. Based on this program, North America consists of the US, Canada, and Mexico. Everything else is outside of North America according to this program. I understand that Mexico is considered international based on DOT statistics so these numbers do skew the counts somewhat, esp. for hubs like IAH or DFW which have a high percentage of their international flights to/from Mexico. Canada is considered DOT domestic. Central America and the Caribbean are considered international for DOT purposes and outside of North America for this study.
The point is to look at the percentage of international markets and seats from each hub. It is your job as the reader to understand the caveat as to what the data includes. However, unless you want to repull the data readjusting for Mexico, this is the best effort I am presenting.
First, I went back and recounted US international markets from PHL and got 31 markets, including markets in the Caribbean.
AA at MIA has 335K seats/week to 104 “North American” destinations and 236K seats/week to 50 destinations outside of North America.
CO at IAH has 805K seats/week to 149 “North American” destinations and 84K seats/week to 29 destinations outside of North America.
UA at IAD has 310K seats/week to 90 “North American” destinations and 67K seats/week to 15 destinations outside of North America.
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