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Mechanics Jobs To China & S Korea  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8524 posts, RR: 10
Posted (6 years 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

According to the Lou Dobbs website tonight the Teamsters Union at JFK staged a protest because of the outsourcing of their jobs to China and S. Korea by United Airlines. The site said that mechanics in Beijing were working on 747 and 777 aircraft and that( I quote the site) out of 2179 mechanics, that only five were FAA certified to repair these aircraft. Once again that information is off the website. I wonder if there is a new trend starting here?


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAzurealoft From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2620 times:

I remember reading an airline management magazine of over a decade ago; an artical in it explained how large aircraft airlines could use American (country, not airline) union pilots to fly the A/C to China, and have it painted in less than a week; then have the same union pilots return the newly painted A/C to the U.S.: and save big bucks.

The artical may have explained that one reason for the Chinese cost saveings was that in the U.S., environmental regulations made it cost much more to paint large A/C; and even more difficult to open a new U.S., large A/C painting facility. The environment there, and the working class people in the Chinese "worker's paradise"; then at least, were not priority concerns; to either the Chinese, or large A/C operators who flew there, for cheaper painting; from the U.S., or elsewhere.

Jim, Southport, North Carolina



Be kind, witty, & have fun. ~ If you don't control your attitude; your attitude will control you.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13804 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2602 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
The site said that mechanics in Beijing were working on 747 and 777 aircraft and that( I quote the site) out of 2179 mechanics, that only five were FAA certified to repair these aircraft. Once again that information is off the website. I wonder if there is a new trend starting here?

The trend to move heavy MX to low wages countries existed since a long time. A big part of the costs for a heavy chack are labour costs, due to the fact that very little of the work (disassembly and assembly of the aircraft) can be done by machines.
E.g. in 1998 LH Technik drastically downsized their MX base in SXF and moved the D-checks to their daughter company Shannon Aerospace Ltd. in Ireland, because salaries were at this time lower there than in Germany (I was one of the guys forced to move or be on the dole). When Ireland became too expensive and Eastern Europe opened up, they took over the ex Malev MX facilities in Budapest, Hungary. Now they opened a new MX facility in Malta.

But LH has bought themselves into heavy MX facilities in China and the Philippines long ago and usess them for D-checks on their 747 and A340 aircraft.

BTW, as long as a foreign company has an approval by their own government and fullfills the quality requirements set by the FAA, the mechanics don't need (and are not issued by the FAA) individual A&P licences. The company is being given the status as a repair station by the FAA and this is it. I have been working for such a company myself. We signed with the repair station number and our employee number.

Jan


User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2505 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2494 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I wonder if there is a new trend starting here?

That trend has been going for years. B6 and USAirways send A320 work to Central America. DL sends MD88/90 work to Mexico, and some 767 work to HK. UL has had widebody work done in China for years. The cost savings are very big when it comes to the labor intensive heavy checks. This month I recieved the latest issue of "Overhaul & Maintenance", it's a industry mag from AvWeek. Their lead story was the growth of Maintenance and Repair Operators in Latin America. It is amazing the number of hangars being built down there. In the US there are facilities idle all over the place, but more work will go south because of the labor cost. There doesn't look like there is anyway to stop the tide. The wages in these shops are less than US min wage. Many bring up the lack of FAA oversight. I guess we can use that as an issue, but in reality I've been a mechanic in the US for seventeen years and I rarely see a Fed. Most of the real checking is done by the airline itself. I really wonder if these operators have enough of their own people on the floor of these shops to really watch over the work. This worry of mine isn't just placed with the overseas operations, but also with the outsourced work here in the US.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2467 times:



Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 3):
Many bring up the lack of FAA oversight. I guess we can use that as an issue, but in reality I've been a mechanic in the US for seventeen years and I rarely see a Fed.

I work on a line station in Europe and a while ago we were an FAA Repair station. we had daily Tristars and B767s of TWA.
The feds were always there. I reckon we saw someone every month! We had an annual inspection, but every FAA employee that happened to be on station came in and poked around. I was amazed. Our own airline QA turn up about every 4 years, and our own CAA have never visited me in twenty years. And their level of surveillance was much higher than the CAA.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8524 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

I am retired and I bring these items up for discussion because I worked all my life under a somewhat stable job situation in the US. I wonder, when is the end coming in the aircraft industry and all the others that have gone down the tubes? I put in 36 years of a 42 year working span at one company and I ended up with a defined pension plan, now that is all gone and if you younger guys don't wise up, you will all end up working like gypsies(no insult intended to the gypsies) with no options unless you move to China and the like and live under their wage tables. I cannot understand the complacency of the younger generation when it comes to watching United Airlines and all the other corporations sell your opportunities for a stable life for cheaper labor. I know that serving hamburgers does not pay as well as an airline mechanic now, but wait. I love the way statistics are thrown around on this site about airlines and and airliners and not much is mentioned about real life, such as the building tide of job losses overseas as the cheap labor forces keep on telling everyone how good it is for the economy, it is good for the billionaires, not for the workers who try to support their families. I love the stats on China slowly building and building their airline production up and getting cheered on by the same people who will lose out to them in the future. This is not a game, it is a deadly serious economic and political struggle for the airline workers and all the others displaced by cheap labor.


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

 talktothehand  Funniest part about this is that the Teamsters Do Not represent the mechanics at United... its AMFA


As to the specifics, yes UA contracts heavy checks to vendors in China and South Korea. AMECO (partially owned by Lufthansa) does 777 heavy checks while Korean Air does United's heavy 744 work. Both vendors are well respected in the industry for their work and capabilities.

The simple sad fact is that as long as US labor remains is uncompetitive in a global arena the work will shift to the many other off shore providers of services. Same principle applies to food products or a 747 maintenance check, the market price will dictate where the service or product is procured at.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

The other side is that there are some US airlines that insource other carrier's maintenance. AA and DL are the largest insourcers with DL larger and pushing toward $500M a year in insourced maintenance. DL management has taken the philosophy that it makes sense to outsource some work but insource other work (engines and components). In many cases, the insourced work has a higher profit margin than the work DL outsources to other companies, even given their lower costs. The trend is not likely to diminish.

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8524 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2343 times:

I am looking for volunteers in the aircraft industry and any other industry in the overpaid US labor market to come forward and save us, I hope to get all layers of labor from the bottom to the top, that includes white collar jobs and (heavens to mercy) management to take a (I''ll go easy here) 75% pay cut, that may give us a couple of more years of employment and then maybe the cheap wages that compete against us will not be the magnet that takes our jobs away. I ask this in the name of patriotism, love of country, love of our children, anything to make us competitive again. I did not exclude management because believe it or not they are also laborers in this overpaid US.


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineSfomb67 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2333 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
I am looking for volunteers in the aircraft industry and any other industry in the overpaid US labor market to come forward and save us, I hope to get all layers of labor from the bottom to the top, that includes white collar jobs and (heavens to mercy) management to take a (I''ll go easy here) 75% pay cut,

What planet are you from? How'd you like to take a 75% cut in your pension?



Not as easy as originally perceived
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8524 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2325 times:



Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 9):
What planet are you from? How'd you like to take a 75% cut in your pension

You see that is the question and why I said that, all these proponents of global trade and the defenders of the global economy and the outsourcing of jobs should be more than glad to make the sacrifice for the good of us all, it would make us compeitive again, would it not? I have a defined pension plan so I can make these outrageous suggestions with no financial penalty, you miss the point, it is said in jest. I never hear too much outrage at what is happening in this country in the airline industry and others, so I bring these subjects up to maybe awaken some people who are watching it all go away without a word. See new thread, jobs to India.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2505 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

So how are we younger workers supposed to rise up and stop our jobs from going overseas? I can't compete from a wage factor. Hell most of the guys I work with have a hard time living at my station at our current wage. I've been with DL for ten years. I worked in ATL in HMV for the first eight. The department I worked in did narrow body overhaul. For the last two years of that check we came in underbudget and always on time but we couldn't save the work from being outsourced. The labor cost was just way to great. When the announcment came our manager just shook his head and said we would almost have to work for free to compete with their rate.

The quality of the outsourced work has never been as good as the job we did. Many times the planes come back from the contractors with long lists of items that need to be addressed. Usually the stuff is minor, but it takes time to do. Sometimes it has been major, which scares us. Not all of our work got outsourced. I really think they wanted to outsource the 777 and 738 checks but were unable to find a vendor. I think this because eight months after our last furlough they were recalling mechanics for these lines. If a suitable contract comes along I bet that work will be gone also.

I really think it is too late to save the aviation industry in the US. Many of the manufacturing jobs are already gone. One trip to Boeing will tell you that. Sure they "make" airplanes there. Where are all the workers? The vast parking lots are empty. The old timer giving the tour tells you twenty years ago they were full. So much of the work has been outsourced. The airline MRO world outsourcing has just been the next step. The mechanic on the shop floor has little say in this. Union or not the company will do what ever they think is best for the company. Line maintenace is the last part. NW has tried to outsource this with mixed results. Most other large airlines have been reluctant to take this last step.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8524 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2120 times:



Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 11):
So how are we younger workers supposed to rise up and stop our jobs from going overseas? I can't compete from a wage factor. Hell most of

There is only one way that I know of and that is political pressure, that is all these politicians understand, they get all the pressure from the lobby for big business and hear nothing from the people losing their jobs in the aircraft industry and others, the silence from the people is deafening in Washington. We have at our hands in this modern age the greatest tool that has ever been available to the masses and that is the internet, I constantly write letters to the editor in my local newspaper and I am constantly writeing to my congressmen. Once again in my time of employment we did not have this problem, crooked politicians yes, constantly sending work overseas, no. I do not go on about this for nothing, I have grandchildren and I wonder how they will survive in the future and I wonder what the people who say nothing are thinking. The people who fancy themselves above the fray will eventually learn the hard way, I remember when the white collar workers who thought they were safe had the hell with everyone else attitude and now they are being outsourced like everyone else. The folks on this forum seem to be heavy users of aircraft and travel alot more than I do. When I think of the quality work that was once provided by the aircraft mechanics in this country going overseas for cheap labor and the folks who spend so much time on these aircraft and not saying anything about this truly amazes me. I know that it does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling when I get on an airplane. This could be stopped overnite if the politicians wanted to stop it, and anyone who thinks differently in either a tool of big business or naive to a fault. They are not listening in Washington because the people are not saying anything in numbers that they understand. I suggest you read the figures for the brokers bonuses for 2007 on Wall Street, maybe that will give the people an idea of what is wrong with this system, while our jobs go overseas, it does not seem to have affected them too much. I think they can afford to fly private jets and I do not think they will be maintained by overseas aircraft mechanics.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13804 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2095 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
When I think of the quality work that was once provided by the aircraft mechanics in this country going overseas for cheap labor and the folks who spend so much time on these aircraft and not saying anything about this truly amazes me.

Most people in here only care about getting a bargain flight ticket. A few airlines introduced cut throat prices and the others had to follow or face ruin. For most A.net users we are overpaid idiots, who should be glad to be allowed to work with aircraft. There are some (and I have seen some a PPRUNE as well), who clearly state that they would work for free, as long as it is with aircraft.

Jan


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8524 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2087 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Most people in here only care about getting a bargain flight ticket. A few airlines introduced cut throat prices and the others had to follow or face ruin. For most A.net users we are overpaid idiots, who should be glad to be allowed to work with aircraft. There are some (and I have seen some a PPRUNE as well), who clearly state that they would work for free, as long as it is with aircraft.

That I think is a problem, no doubt about it, unfortunately, if this trend continues you may just be doing that, working for nothing that is. I worked in a job for 36 years, and I never tried to change that job, and I had many opportunities in the same company. I truly was happy doing the work that was of a technical type (communications) I can honestly say that doing it for free never crossed my mind.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
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