Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Entering Foreign Airspace  
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 4 months 9 hours ago) and read 2465 times:

Couple of questions about entering foreign airspace.

1. The few times I've flown to HKG from the US our captain had to delay our flight because of a time restriction upon entering Russian airspace. Apparently, due to favorable tail winds, we would be "too early" into Russian Airspace, thus the 2 hour delay of the flight.

2. When tracking, say a flight from IAH-HNL, the flight paths always seem to skim the edge of the US-Mexican border, without entering Mexican Airspace. Is there a reason for this? I assume there might be some over-fly charge perhaps. Also, most of the flights from the southern US to NRT or HKG seem to totally miss Canadian airspace and flight right over Seattle and to the west of Vancouver.

So what are the reasons for this, and are there any certain laws that go into affect when you enter a foreign airspace?

Another thing I was wondering about is, once a foreign aircraft is airborne, like say, the BA flight from DFW-LGW, is British Law in affect or do they comply with US law? The reason I ask is because the first time I flew BA, back in 1998 on a DC-10 from DFW-LGW, my cousin and I were wondering about the drinking age and if we could have wine with our meal. In the US, you can't drink unless you are 21 or older, but on the BA flight, the flight attendant just handed us both a little bottle of wine and went about her business.

Thanks!

UAL

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 9 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

The Russia restriction has to do with having to space out aircraft entering what basically becomes a choke-point beyond Alaska. There are planes converging from all over North America on one only a few possible routes, in addition to Russia also having a rather long time/distance spacing requirement for these planes as well.

Mexico does indeed charger overflight fees. Why pay them if you dont have to.
Similarly one can sometimes see Eastbound Asia-US flights often make land fall over SEA and skim along on the US side of the border to places such as ORD to avoid the higher NavCanada charges.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 9 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

How much does a country charge for overflight passage? Say on a 777 or 747?

UAL


User currently offlineJettaKnight From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 2391 times:



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
Similarly one can sometimes see Eastbound Asia-US flights often make land fall over SEA and skim along on the US side of the border to places such as ORD to avoid the higher NavCanada charges.

I suspect that this has more to do with winds than fees. On my only trip to Asia, the westbound leg from MSP-NRT went directly over Canada and Alaska, while the return flew much further south, overflying SEA. The captain said that this route was chosen due to favorable winds, and the shorter than expected flight time was consistent with this explanation.

I have no knowledge of specific charges from different countries, but from what I've read on other a.net threads, I believe that the amounts charged by Mexico are high enough (and the required diversion short enough) to make it more desireable to avoid the fee.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 2380 times:



Quoting JettaKnight (Reply 3):
I suspect that this has more to do with winds than fees.

No, given the choice between land fall around YVR or SEA, the US side is chosen on purpose by flight planners to avoid overflight fee charges which NAVCanada levies.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 2):
How much does a country charge for overflight passage?

Fees are usually dependent on distance flown thru a FIR and aircraft type. Can range from less then $100 to many thousands. Some of the more expensive countries are Canada, UK and Russia.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 2372 times:

Here are the NavCanada fees:

It starts on page 3:

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefin...Announcements/2001/detailsE_en.pdf


AF340 wave 


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 2355 times:

Wall Street Journal had a good article back in March called "Calculating Costs in the Clouds" and explaining how the new generation of flight planners actively consider overflight fee charges as one of the many variables when coming up with a route.

One specific example in the article was how United Airlines was using such new technologies and had as an a SFO-FRA 744 flight which with the new system would minimize its time in Canadian airspace by flying longer in the US with a net overall savings of $1,600 for the flight.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6708 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 2355 times:



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
given the choice between land fall around YVR or SEA, the US side is chosen on purpose by flight planners to avoid overflight fee charges which NAVCanada levies.

A quick look at the flight plans on flightaware indicates that flights from NRT to ORD tend to skirt Canada but the westward flights don't. Does Canada charge more one way than the other?


User currently offlineSlovacek747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

When I took the IAH-HNL-IAH flight, on the way back we passed deep into Mexico. On the way there though, we did go just north of SAN before heading south into the Pacific.

Slovacek747


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 7 hours ago) and read 2336 times:

The laws on an airplane are usually those that govern the country that the airline is based out of once in the air. With regards to alcohol sales, it is an aviation regulation set by the governing body of that airline. That means that the age restriction is usually the same as that in the airline's home country. However many airlines respect the United State's law of 21 years drinking age and will not serve to passengers under 21. But it is a case of the flight attendant's opinion. Usually they don't care much, especially when it is a foreign carrier operating to the US. This topic comes up a lot, and before too long someone in the 13-15 age bracket on this website will go brag about how they were served alcohol when they were 14 on a plane.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineJettaKnight From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 7 hours ago) and read 2301 times:



Quoting JettaKnight (Reply 3):
I suspect that this has more to do with winds than fees. On my only trip to Asia, the westbound leg from MSP-NRT went directly over Canada and Alaska, while the return



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
No, given the choice between land fall around YVR or SEA, the US side is chosen on purpose by flight planners to avoid overflight fee charges which NAVCanada levies.

I stand corrected regarding the signficance of the overflight fees - thanks for the interesting insight!

Quoting Timz (Reply 7):
flights from NRT to ORD tend to skirt Canada but the westward flights don't. Does Canada charge more one way than the other?



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
flight planners actively consider overflight fee charges as one of the many variables when coming up with a route.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the fees are the same in both directions, but that winds are one of the 'many variables' that are considered, making it more feasible to avoid Canada on the westbound flights.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 7 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

A lot of UK airlines fly from the UK to the Canaries by flying out over the Atlantic. Apparently a 20 min diversion is well worth it as you don't have to pay French Airways charges.

User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 7 hours ago) and read 2279 times:



Quoting JettaKnight (Reply 10):
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the fees are the same in both directions, but that winds are one of the 'many variables' that are considered, making it more feasible to avoid Canada on the westbound flights.

Actually, I'm going to say the opposite. As usual, in the Northern Hemisphere,the Jet stream tends to go from West to East, thus the reason why so many westbound transpacific flights overfly Canada, to get north of the jet stream. East bound flights tend to be a lot further south. However, on a PEK-ORD flight I did back in 2001, we flew right over Canada, however, ORD is far enough north to justify flying over Canada.

Mainly, the routes that compromise most of the Canadian Airspace avoidance would typically be from the southern US to Asia, or Europe/Middle East. Places like DTW, ORD, etc., you are pretty much too close to Canadian airspace to avoid it and the cost of NOT flying over Canada would be more than just paying the fees.

UAL


User currently offlineJettaKnight From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 6 hours ago) and read 2217 times:

Argh! I'm choking every time I try to post in this thread!! Once again, I stand corrected!!!

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 12):
in the Northern Hemisphere,the Jet stream tends to go from West to East

Yes, I knew that, as my NRT-MSP experience indicates above. I have this strange East-West dyslexia that had me typing one while I meant the other.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 6 hours ago) and read 2215 times:



Quoting JettaKnight (Reply 13):
have this strange East-West dyslexia that had me typing one while I meant the other.

Some more spiked egg nog should solve that  coffee   Big grin



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6708 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 2168 times:

I was surprised to see that a NRT-ORD flight that avoids Canada (Canada itself, that is) only adds 200 nm to its trip. NRT-ATL adds 100 nm. How about this one, for DL's nonstop

CHOSH2 GUPPY OTR8 KAGIS OTR11 GARRY 4000N 16000E 4300N 17000E 4500N 18000E 4700N 17000W 4900N 16000W 5000N 15000W 5000N 14000W PRETY TAMRU SEFIX TOU SEA J90 NORMY J90 MWH HIA RAP J151 ONL OVR FAM BNA RMG3

They avoid Canada itself, but they're crossing a corner of the Canadian ADIZ, as well as the "Vancouver CTA/FIR". Do they still save money?


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 2151 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 9):
However many airlines respect the United State's law of 21 years drinking age and will not serve to passengers under 21.

FYI, there is no U.S. federal law that limits the drinking age to 21. Each state determines it's own drinking age. The federal government blackmailed all the states to raising their drinking age to 21 back in the late '80s/early '90s I believe, at the risk of losing highway funds if they didn't. I believe Wisconsin was the last holdout... Wisconsin didn't want to raise the drinking age... it had been at 18 for decades. But anyway, if any state wanted to lower its drinking age to 16 tomorrow, it could.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 2136 times:



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 16):
FYI, there is no U.S. federal law that limits the drinking age to 21. Each state determines it's own drinking age.

The FAA mandated a drinking age of 21 on board all US airlines, so that is a federal regulation.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 4 hours ago) and read 2112 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 17):
The FAA mandated a drinking age of 21 on board all US airlines, so that is a federal regulation.

Your earlier post didn't read as if you were referring to the FAA law. I was just clarifying, as there is a common misperception, that there is no federal law setting the U.S. drinking age (outside of U.S. airlines) at 21.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 4 hours ago) and read 2107 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 7):
A quick look at the flight plans on flightaware indicates that flights from NRT to ORD tend to skirt Canada but the westward flights don't. Does Canada charge more one way than the other?

Due the usually strong headwinds, the westbound flights probably have less routing flexibility. The cost of a fuel stop would be much higher than the NavCanada fees.

Quoting Timz (Reply 15):
They avoid Canada itself, but they're crossing a corner of the Canadian ADIZ, as well as the "Vancouver CTA/FIR". Do they still save money?

Charges are based on how long they're using Canadian ATC services so charges for flights like JFK-TYO or SEA-LHR where they're over Canada for several hours are much higher than East Coast-Europe flights. There are quite a few examples of NavCanada charges for various routings their current guide to charges here (examples are in Appendix C):
http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefin...ocharges/Customer_Guide_New_en.pdf

Many if not most countries charge similar ATC fees. It's a large expense item for major airlines.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Age 60+ Foreign Pilots In US Airspace posted Sun Mar 12 2006 20:31:55 by PIA747
Is Closing Airspace To Only Foreign Carrier Legal? posted Fri Sep 14 2001 21:24:39 by Ahlfors
Philippine Airlines: Why Foreign Registration? posted Mon Dec 17 2007 05:31:09 by Czbbflier
Top 5 Foreign Airlines To EU? posted Tue Dec 4 2007 01:23:06 by BrightCedars
Top Five Foreign Airlines To US? posted Thu Nov 29 2007 14:57:13 by Mudboy
Integrated Airspace Research Paper posted Thu Nov 22 2007 19:37:18 by YYZatcboy
Open Military Airspace Results posted Thu Nov 22 2007 14:09:59 by BooDog
US Military Opening Airspace For Holidays posted Thu Nov 15 2007 11:25:53 by Gregarious119
New Int'l Routes/foreign Airlines At ORD In 2008 posted Sun Nov 4 2007 16:39:07 by Addd
JetBlue Supports FAA's Integrated Airspace... posted Thu Sep 6 2007 00:51:26 by JetBlueAUS