Longhornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3102 posts, RR: 47 Posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1917 times:
Hello all! First off I'd like to wish everybody a Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukkah, Kwanzaa, Boxing Day, and/or Happy Holidays!
I apologize if I sound a bit stupid in asking this question, but I was flying today in Flight Sim from ORY to SXM and it got me thinking about what the purpose of Paris Orly is. I really don't understand how the system works. I'd love some insight into it.
Here are some talking points.
1) I can't think of another airline that as a two-base operation in the same city like Air France does with CDG and ORY. The best comparison to me seems to be how BA uses LGW and LHR. Is this fair?
2) Do both airlines have different fleets that they use out of ORY and LGW vs. CDG and LHR? What is the reasoning for this?
3) Suffice to say, ORY and LGW are the smaller of the two. What purpose do they serve in the airlines' systems? Is it as simple as catering to different parts of large cities, or is it more complex?
4) Is ORY considered a hub? I understand that most of the service is inter-European, but do many passengers connect like they do in CDG? Don't many of the flights overlap between the two Paris airports (i.e. each airport having flights to the same places)?
5) LGW is used by most US airlines (DL, CO, US, NW), and UA, AA, BA, and VS on routes to airports not open to LHR travel because of the restrictions of Bermuda II (right?) into LHR. I don't believe there is a similar restriction in place for CDG. How is ORY used by AF, as well as other airlines, trans-oceanically? What differentiates its service from CDG? My observation is that most of ORY's routes are leisure markets, whereas CDG caters to both business and leisure markets. Does this compare to BA's and VS' operations at LGW?
Sorry if this is a bunch to answer, and you don't have to answer all of them. From an outward (read: ignorant American ) perspective, CDG and ORY seem to be fairly redundant. I understand the need (until Open Skies) for another international airport in London because of Bermuda II. As far as I know, no such restrictions exist for Paris. Are ORY and LGW used as reliever airports to an extent, to keep traffic delays minimal (a la JFK)?
Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22251 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1880 times:
Couple contrast between the two.. ORY is the closer in city airport for Paris, while LGW is further out of London. While long haul services except some leisure destinations is concentrated at CDG, ORY is the primary and larger domestic airport for Paris unlike LGW which is a secondary airport compared to Heathrow.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Eghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1859 times:
I don't know that I would call CDG and ORY a two base operation for Air France. Air France's base is definitely at CDG.
Relatively speaking, ORY is not that big a base for Air France. Most of their mainline long-haul service is at CDG.
There are other similar situations around the world. Both JAL and ANA have large operations at both NRT and HND in Tokyo. American has large operations at both JFK and LGA. KAL has large operations at both ICN and SEL (Kimpo). China Eastern has operations at both PVG and SHA. Alitalia has operations at both MXP and LIN. In all these cases, the second airport (ORY, HND, LGA, SEL, SHA, LIN) handles mostly short haul operations and the first handles long haul operations.
Goldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1677 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1803 times:
Let me get you some explanations. ORY is definitely a base for AF, of course much smaller than CDG. Historically, AF was based at CDG while ORY was the base for Air Inter, the French domestic airline which was merged with AF during the 90's. ORY for AF is 90% domestic flights + flights to the French overseas department which rely a lot on domestic feed (Guadeloupe & Martinique in the Carribeans, French Guyana, Reunion island in the indian ocean) + a bunch of European / north Africa) flights (LCY, RAK) but these ones are really a minority. CDG is the main hub with a huge network of long- and medium haul flights including some domestic flights to ensure connections to/from the other routes. But for domestic market, there is a huge difference between the 2 airports. If you consider the main routes like TLS, NCE, MRS, there are may be 7 or 8 daily flights from CDG to each of these cities, while from ORY we are talking of 20 to 30 daily flights to each of these cities.
Of course, AF could have pulled out from ORY to concentrate on CDG but did not and will not do that.
- it allows AF to offer services from a northern and from a southern base.
- ORY is closer to Paris than CDG, although it's not a very big deal (20 versus 30 km)
- ORY is smaller than CDG leading to less delays and less taxi times (you never taxi more than 10 min at ORY before taking-off, while you can reach up to 30 min at CDG)
- ORY is slot-restricted and it is clearly strategic to stay at ORY to avoid competitors like LCC taking these valuable slots.
To answer your other questions ;
- AF doesn't have a different fleet at the 2 airports with the exception of one A340 and their new B773W based at ORY to serve the French overseas dept. These birds have a special high-density configuration to serve these leisure and ethnic markets. Otherwise, they use exclusively A320 family birds, so as in CDG (exception : BAe146 of City Jet for LCY).
- ORY is a hub but, as said before, mostly for domestic connections and France-overseas dept connections.
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Thread starter): How is ORY used by AF, as well as other airlines, trans-oceanically? What differentiates its service from CDG? My observation is that most of ORY's routes are leisure markets, whereas CDG caters to both business and leisure markets
AF trans-oceanic services from ORY are for the moment limited to overseas department. These are leisure markets (and ethnic traffic). But next year, with the open-sky agreement, we will see DL service (code-shared with AF) to JFK on 757. But the domestic network of AF is both business & leisure (mostly business during the week and moslty leisure during week ends)
Skyteam10001 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 194 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1754 times:
Not much to add to Goldorak's very good summary
Quoting Goldorak (Reply 3): Quoting Longhornmaniac (Thread starter):
How is ORY used by AF, as well as other airlines, trans-oceanically? What differentiates its service from CDG? My observation is that most of ORY's routes are leisure markets, whereas CDG caters to both business and leisure markets
AF trans-oceanic services from ORY are for the moment limited to overseas department. These are leisure markets (and ethnic traffic). But next year, with the open-sky agreement, we will see DL service (code-shared with AF) to JFK on 757. But the domestic network of AF is both business & leisure (mostly business during the week and moslty leisure during week ends)
as far as other airlines, some also use ORY for longhaul flights : Corsair flies from ORY to MRU, RUN, North America...
Skyteam10001 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 194 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1512 times:
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1415 times:
Quoting Skyteam10001 (Reply 6): you're absolutely right, my mistake
are there any other airlines aside from DL (soon), AF and Corsair that fly long haul from ORY then
Goldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1677 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1401 times:
Quoting Skyteam10001 (Reply 6): are there any other airlines aside from DL (soon), AF and Corsair that fly long haul from ORY then ?
Not that much :
AIr Burkina to Ougadougou
Egyptair to CAI and LXR
L'Avion (Elysair) to EWR
Air Mediterranee & Aigle Azur (Charters to various locations)
Cubana to Cuba
Iran Air to THR
Syrian Arab to Damas
Air Caraibes to FDF and PTP (in direct competition with AF and Corsair)
Air Senegal to DKR
Air Ivoire to ABJ
Thomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2278 posts, RR: 31 Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1350 times:
Quoting Goldorak (Reply 3): - AF doesn't have a different fleet at the 2 airports with the exception of one A340 and their new B773W based at ORY to serve the French overseas dept. These birds have a special high-density configuration to serve these leisure and ethnic markets. Otherwise, they use exclusively A320 family birds, so as in CDG (exception : BAe146 of City Jet for LCY).
They have a fleet of A320 family aircraft dedicated to ORY operations that you will hardly see in CDG (unless they are operating domestic services in V patterns).
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
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From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3102 posts, 
) perspective, CDG and ORY seem to be fairly redundant. I understand the need (until Open Skies) for another international airport in London because of Bermuda II. As far as I know, no such restrictions exist for Paris. Are ORY and LGW used as reliever airports to an extent, to keep traffic delays minimal (a la JFK)?
From France, joined Sep 2006, 1677 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4903 posts, 
From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2278 posts, 
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