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"Wings" Alliance May Fly After All!  
User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

I found this online today. It seems to me that the Wings Alliance with AZ/CO/KL and NW will come to fruition after all!

KLM, Alitalia Talk on Resuming Alliance, People Say


Rome, Jan. 25 (Bloomberg) -- KLM Royal Dutch Airlines NV may resume a partnership with Alitalia SpA, four months after British Airways Plc dropped talks to buy the Dutch company, people familiar with the situation said.

Executives from KLM, Europe's fourth-largest carrier, and No. 6 Alitalia met earlier this month to discuss reviving their collaboration, the people said. KLM dropped its partnership with Alitalia nine months ago. The companies had an alliance which stopped just short of a merger and under which they aimed to share profit eventually.

The airlines, which combined would have 17 percent of the market in Europe, second only to BA's 21 percent, are seeking partners as competition increases. Their efforts to combine with bigger carriers have failed since their own alliance collapsed.

Their alliance was ``mutually convenient for both airlines and was a good solution'' to their requirements, said Gerald Khoo, an analyst at BNP Paribas. ``It was ambitious but not so ambitious it was too difficult to pull off'' with regulators.

KLM's efforts to merge with BA collapsed in September, while Alitalia has failed in talks to form a partnership with Air France or SAir's Swissair. Neither KLM nor Alitalia can survive alone as Europe's airline industry consolidates, analysts said.

Few alternatives matched the potential of the KLM-Alitalia alliance in which the KLM offered Alitalia the long-haul network it lacks while the Italian carrier gave KLM access to a big domestic market.

Malpensa Plan

The European Union's approval of a new plan for Alitalia's Milan Malpensa hub could clear the way for the revival. KLM in April blamed problems with Malpensa and the slow pace of the Italian carrier's share sale for the split.

The EU last month approved Italy's fifth change to flight allocations between Milan's Malpensa and Linate airports, concluding a 15-month battle that had embroiled the government, the EU and a dozen European airlines. The carriers had complained previous allocation plans favored Alitalia.

Alitalia spokesman Enrico Lepri said ``alleged'' talks with KLM as well as an executive meeting are ``completely groundless'' as was a report in Italian daily newspaper Il Sole/24 Ore that Alitalia Chief Executive Domenico Cempella would resign at a January board meeting to facilitate the revival.

``We still see consolidation in Europe, operationally it has always made sense'' said KLM spokeswoman Laura Frost, who declined to comment on whether the officials have met and are weighing a renewed alliance.

Lack of Choices

The lack of alternative solutions to compete with BA, Deutsche Lufthansa AG and Air France, which are all building global alliances, could help bring KLM and Alitalia back together. Their breakup prompted Alitalia to sue KLM for damages and the Dutch carrier to countersue. The carriers are still in litigation.

When asked whether Alitalia is interested in resuming ties with KLM, Alitalia President Fausto Cereti said in an interview:

``If I want to marry a girl and she says `no,' I would be a fool to say she was worthless. I am still looking at the girl.'' Cereti declined to be more specific.

Even though KLM didn't blame Alitalia's management for last year's breakup, a new chief executive at the airline might make it easier for the Italian government, which owns 53 percent of the carrier, to resume talks, analysts said.

Italian daily La Repubblica reported in December that Cempella had lost the support of the government because of his criticism of the handling of the Malpensa issue.

Jan/25/2001 6:39 ET

For more stories from Bloomberg News, click here.

(C) Copyright 2001 Bloomberg L.P.



Any redistribution of Bloomberg content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Bloomberg L.P. Any reference to the material must be properly attributed to Bloomberg News.

The information herein was obtained from sources which Bloomberg L.P. and its suppliers believe reliable, but they do not guarantee its accuracy. Neither the information, nor any opinion expressed, constitutes a solicitation of the purchase or sale of any securities or commodities.(C) Copyright 2001 Bloomberg L.P. BLOOMBERG, Bloomberg News, Bloomberg Financial Markets, Bloomberg Television, Bloomberg News Radio are trademarks, tradenames and service marks of Bloomberg L.P.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWishihadalife From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Gotta love how you post the legal disclaimer along with the article, especially when the disclamier says that you CANT post the article!  Smile

User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1675 times:

God what's with Cereti and comparing Alitalia and KLM as two lovers courting each other?? He used this kind of metaphor when the two broke up as well (no pun intended).

 Smile
Aaron G.


User currently offlineToxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

It was Alitalia's noncommittal attitude toward Malpensa that scotched the alliance the first time. I hope they've figured out whether Malpensa's the Number 1 airport in Milan for them.

This group sure has had a slow start out of the blocks. I doubt they can catch the rest of the field...


User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

If you remember correctly, the first alliance was the NW/KL alliance back in the late 80s. In 1993 the two were granted anti-trust immunity and have since basically operated as one carrier.

If anyone is having a slow start out of the blocks, it certainly is not KL/NW. Other alliances may have more carriers (too many cooks spoil the broth) but Wings is the most aligned and most integrated.


User currently offlineEmile From Netherlands, joined Nov 2000, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1593 times:

not only kl/nw co/alitalia but a lot off small ones like cypressairways braathens, kenyaairways in afrika. jas and maybe mas.

User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1580 times:

come on, wings the most integrated and aligend alliance?????
i doesn´t even exist already!!!!!
i agree that northwest and klm might have the closest relationship but there are others which come pretty close, BA and qantas, SR and sabena, Lufthansa and SAS, United.

rgds
daniel



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1530 times:

Here at DTW UA and LH do not even operate out of the same terminal! And when LH approached UA on ground handling the LH flight, UA flat-out refused.

If someone has a LH ticket and they want to fly another carrier, UA cannot give the endorsement. Only LH can give an endorsement for a LH ticket.

NW/KL on the other hand are treated as one airline and either carrier can answer for the other one.



User currently offlineSR3496 From Switzerland, joined May 2000, 792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1530 times:

Sure the KL/NW-alliance is the best existing international partnership. Nevertheless the Wings alliance doesn't exist yet...they need some more partnes.

User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1529 times:

I think that Alitalia KLM partnership is the best at the moment for both the airlines.
I'm sure this time it will be a success!!!
(I only hope Alitalia will renew her fleet because she needs it).
Thank you


User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1512 times:

330-dtw,

you´re right, they´re not operating out of the same terminal in dtw, and kl/nw do, but it´s not UA hub, it´s one of the major hubs of kl/nw.
there are many airports from whcih LH and UA operate out of the same terminals so that´s an exception. and neither do KL and NW operate everywhere from the same terminals.
i´m sure you´re right about the endorsements, but it´s a different picture over here in germany, because i´m flying a lot on lufthansa and its star partners and i never had any problems with my tickets on other airlines.
i´m not sure why these differences are regarding the LH/UA thing in DTW and i don´t think that it applies to everywhere in the states.
and i don´t think that there are no flaws regarding KL/NW. as i said, it´s the longest major relationship between two major carriers and it certainly may be one of the most integrated, but there will be always things to complain about, with KL/NW and of course LH/UA.

rgds
daniel



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineToxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

Is it Mark Twain all over again?

If indeed Wings is dead, as some are saying, then where do its component carriers go from here?


User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1487 times:

KLM and NWA have probably the best alliance of all. CO and NWA are good. CO has also always had a little codeshare going with Alitalia. Now all they need to go is get JAL to join up, then they will have 2 strong US airlines, 2 strong European airlines, and 1 strong Asian Airline.

User currently offlineToxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1490 times:

I've heard from others that JAL is very happy on its own...which surprised me, because I thought they and OneWorld/AA had a relationship (that's why they're at DFW)

User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1479 times:

JAL has a small partnership with AA in ORD and DFW.

User currently offlinePhileo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1481 times:

I wasn't sure about JAL relationship with NWA/KLM but something for sure, MAS is very close with both of them. KLM not only codesharing all it's AMS--KUL flight with MAS, but right now all MAS Australia flights carried KLM code as well. Beside that, I think NWA also did the same thing as well with MAS for the flight in and out of US. Anyway, I just wish MAS could be the official Wings partners as soon as possible.

User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

MAS would be a good Southeast Asian partner for Wings, but you still have got Korea/Japan to be worried about. JAL will stick to its close Oneworld affiliations. they have very extensive partnerships with AA, BA, SR (which is Oneworld-leaning), and CX. Maybe Wings should snag Asiana before its too late!!

Aaron G.


User currently offlineOO-VEG From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 1119 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Asiana???
MAS I can understand (good transfer station) but Asiana? Nah, that is nothing. Japan and Korea are nice markets but let's not forget
a. NW has a strong hub in Tokio already.
b. Japan and Korea are not the largest markets in Asia

It would be better to go for a Chinese partner. At this moment the chinese aviation market is booming business, air travel is growing like never before and as far as I know those Chinese companies do not have foreign partners. So every company is available there. Therefore I would definately go for China Southern or China Eastern Airlines, then you have a market of 1 billion people to focus on.

But nevertheless, MAS is also situated very nicely in the center of Southern Asia. It would be a nice transfer station for smaller destinations within Asia.

Furthermore should there be a South American partner (you all know why..).


User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

I guess you are right. Plus you've got JAS in the mix which is closely partnered with NW. I still think Asiana needs to make an alliance decision though.

The CAAC, which in some way controls all of the PRC's airlines, has not decided to push any airlines into an alliance yet. If that happened though, I think the arrangement would look like this:

Air China: Wings 1st choice, Star a distant 2nd.
China Eastern: Oneworld
China Southern: Skyteam

South America: With Varig gone and LAN & Aerolineas Argentinas in or leaning towards Oneworld, that doesn't leave much choice. TAM would obviously be the most likely candidate for either Skyteam or Wings, but I don't think any have shown an interest yet. Perhaps VASP as well, but there would need to be much expansion/restructuring.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineAZJUBILEE From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3955 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1424 times:

There is no wings alliance... there was never a formal announcement about this ever! It was mere speculation that, WINGS would be the brand name of the most intergrated alliance in the world. That would be KL/NW. No other alliance can top the intergration that NW and KLM have to offer. Add CO, AZ, JAS, Kenya, MAS, Jet Airways and all theother ones, when a formal alliance brand is announced, it will be awesome! Don't forget NW and Air CHina have had code sharing for a long time now. NW is the first carrier to codeshare within the Chinese domestic market.

Exciting times are ahead. Let's wait and see.

AZJ


User currently offlineMas777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2936 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1395 times:

Indeed - but KLM is already quite strong in the Latin American market - how many other airlines are left in that region to join the alliance.

User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (13 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1379 times:

Yesterday, Domenico Cempella, chief of Alitalia resigned and there are rumors (strong rumors) about a possible re-pertnership between KLM and Alitalia. Also KLM which until yesterday always said there there were no possibilities to re-merge with AZ, now says that they can re-start talks.

User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (13 years 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1351 times:

Northwest and JAL have a Cargo Alliance. A passenger alliance might be in the very near future!

User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (13 years 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Northwest already has an alliance with Air China. Also, when NW and CA signed their agreement, CO and AS were part of the package.

User currently offlineLadevale From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (13 years 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1331 times:

"Northwest and JAL have a Cargo Alliance. A passenger alliance might be in the very near future!"

JAL confirmed and extended its passenger alliance with AA. Don't hold your breath!

They might not have joined oneworld yet, but they know that there is a world of difference between AA and Northwest...



User currently offlineAZJUBILEE From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3955 posts, RR: 28
Reply 25, posted (13 years 9 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

Yes, NW has the alliance with JAl Cargo. JAl also has the alliance with AA. NW can offer more in Asia than AA can by a thousand miles. With this thought, a NW/JAL alliance could compete more effectively with a huge increase in competition if an open skies agreement ever occurs.



AZJ


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