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Alitalia Sells 25% Of Heathrow Slots  
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7221 posts, RR: 57
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11625 times:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22401252/

The Italian group has sold nearly a quarter of its Heathrow slots in three separate deals for a total of €92m (£67m), and is understood to have received a record price of more than £30m for one pair of slots.

Alitalia said it had received €54m in the first stage of payments, which would bolster its balance sheet this year, and would receive a further €38m next year.

It refused to disclose to which airlines it had sold the slots, but it is understood that Continental Airlines, US Airways and British Airways have each bought one slot pair. BA is understood to have paid close to £10m, while the other two deals were closed at around £30m per slot pair.


The world is really getting smaller these days
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12525 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11609 times:

Hardly surprising; this was rumoured for some time and I can only imagine that since the word began to circulate, AZ was schmoozed by the likes of BA, CO etc.

User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11602 times:

Sorry mods I want to ask something completely off-topic. Please punish me if needed.

In this and other threads the Euro symbol as well as the Pound symbol are completely messed up. I see a string of characters instead. This also happens when there are posts with accents on the a e o u etc.
I use MS XP + Firefox 2 (both English versions). Any clue?
I tried selecting different Character Encodings, but no matter which one I try, the text is still displayed incorrectly.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3638 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11587 times:

It remains to be seen, how airlines can launch a transatlantic price war, whilst paying these sorts of prices for slots. It may take some very creative accountancy to justify this; and a hope that LHR slots will still trade at a premium in the future. If the 3rd runway at LHR is ever built, this would obviously have an impact on slot values, as the capacity would increase by approx 50%. Anyone whose slots were all bought at a high cost, as opposed to BA who aquired most of theirs when they were worthless; would then be looking at a large asset writedown.

User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11500 times:



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 2):
Sorry mods I want to ask something completely off-topic.

Not being a mod, but familiar with the problem: I suppose the database storing the data uses single-byte characters (like used with the ISO-8859-x encodings, Windows-1252, etc.) Now when someone using the computer enters the text in a multi-byte encoding (like UTF-8) the database storing does not recognize it as one symbol, and stores it falsely. This process cannot be "reversed".

Still off-topic, a bit more in detail (still simplified): single-byte encodings use one byte for every typed character. So therefore, there is a maximum on 8^2 = 256 characters. That's enough for English, but not for other languages. Therefore, there are different encodings. Out of the 256 characters, there are some 150-200 "default" characters (a-z, A-Z, 1-9, etc) and the rest can be filled with local characters. Here you can see how they are used: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_encoding

Now multi-byte encoding allows that one character can be composed out of more than one byte. 2-bytes already allow for 2^16 = 65536 chars, 3 bytes allow for 16,7M chars. Now, symbols are composed out of more than one character. Multi-byte enabled databases "recognize" that 2, 3 or 4 bytes are used for 1 symbol. Single-byte databases only see 2, 3 or 4 bytes, they think it are 2, 3 or 4 symbols and write down 2, 3 or 4 nonsense-symbols.

The only remedy is for A.net to update the database, but this is by far not as easy as installing a windows server pack or whatsoever.


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11498 times:

With AZ concentrating on their FCO hub, I imagine the axed flights will all be the MXP flights, right?

Makes sense: if you don't have a hub in MXP and London - Milan is just attracting O/D traffic, there really is no need to serve MXP when you also go to the more conveniently located LIN city airport.

Anybody know how many LHR-MXP and LHR-LIN flights AZ has daily?


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11430 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5):
With AZ concentrating on their FCO hub, I imagine the axed flights will all be the MXP flights, right?

From this thread: Alitalia's MXP/FCO 2008 Longhaul Changes Finalized (by Nycfly75 Dec 21 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Quote:

Currently:

FCO-LHR 5 daily
LIN-LHR- 4 daily
MXP-LHR: 3 daily


From March, 2008:

FCO-LHR- 5 daily
LIN-LHR- 5 daily
MXP-LHR: Nothing

However, I think there is an error here, as they already have 5 dailies from LIN. So that indeed means that the slots they are selling are the three MXP-LHR flights - they are not bookable anymore from March 2008 either.


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2208 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11405 times:
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Will AZ look for cheaper slots at LGW or STN or will they just cut down on capacity? What is the ratio of high-yield pax vs low-yield pax UK-Italy?

Does AZ fly high-capacity A321 to London?



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineBBADXB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11337 times:

I think AZ flies mostly A321s into LHR. Every time I'm at LHR, I seem to have to see one of their A321s.

User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11339 times:



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 7):
Will AZ look for cheaper slots at LGW or STN or will they just cut down on capacity? What is the ratio of high-yield pax vs low-yield pax UK-Italy?

It seems that for now, they will just cut down. There are no indications so far on LGW or STN flights.

MXP-LHR has mostly been a connections market for AZ, and as the MXP hub disappears, there is not much of a need for these flights left.

LIN-LHR is the high-yield O&D market and remains practically unchanged.

FCO-LHR is both O&D and hub-demand, and the hub position will be strengthened, so traffic will increase. Currently, the fly the route with 3x 321, 1x 320 and 1xM80; in the new schedule this will be upgauged to 5x321.

Interesting is that the first FCO-LHR flight on weekdays will leave FCO at 09:35, arriving in LHR at 11:25. This indicates that the flight is aimed at connecting passengers, who arrive in the early morning at FCO. The first LHR-FCO is early (06:00-09:35) but this is also needed for connections. So IMO, it is interesting that they chose not to cater the O&D market FROM Rome, TO London.


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11329 times:



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 7):
Will AZ look for cheaper slots at LGW or STN or will they just cut down on capacity?

Cut down on capacity. They are axing a hub at MXP and this is why they are disposing of LHR slots. Local Milan traffic will be served through LIN

And getting peak time slots at LGW, STN, LTN and LCY is almost as hard as getting LHR ones



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1411 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11282 times:



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 7):
Does AZ fly high-capacity A321 to London?



Quoting BBADXB (Reply 8):
I think AZ flies mostly A321s into LHR.

AZ flies a variety of aircraft into LHR:

FCO = mostly A321s with a daily M82 and sometimes A320s (instead of A321)
MXP = A321s
LIN = A321s, A320s and M82s



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,(..51 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineHeeBeeGB From Finland, joined Sep 2007, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11252 times:

What routes have AZ historically operated from LGW? They did, say 4-5 years ago operate MD80's into Gatwick and the odd A321.

User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2907 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11037 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
The only remedy is for A.net to update the database, but this is by far not as easy as installing a windows server pack or whatsoever.

They're working on it, as you can read in (oddly) both the Photography forum: Character Issue - Long Term Solution (by Flyheligirl Dec 20 2007 in Aviation Photography) and site-related Character Issue - Finally A Long Term Solution (by Flyheligirl Dec 20 2007 in Site Related)



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineAF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10823 times:



Quoting BestWestern (Thread starter):
It refused to disclose to which airlines it had sold the slots, but it is understood that Continental Airlines, US Airways and British Airways have each bought one slot pair.

According to French newspaper "Les Echos", Northwest Airlines is the buyer of the slots. Which would make sense given Alitalia and Northwest are both SkyTeam members.


User currently offlineComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1041 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9547 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 10):
Cut down on capacity. They are axing a hub at MXP and this is why they are disposing of LHR slots. Local Milan traffic will be served through LIN

There's people who travel from Lugano to London and UK fliers who like to visit Lake Como who will be looking at other carriers that fly from MXP to London. In my opinion it's stupid on part of AZ to eliminate all MXP flights to London. Milan has three airports which now are divided into city airport, long haul airport and low cost carrier airport. But in reality it's comes down to geographic locations. People who live in the Bergamo area have a tendency to use Bergamo Linate and Verona and typically avoid Malpensa. People who live in Varese, Como and Lugano have a preference for MXP. Milanese use all three airports. AZ and the puppets in Rome see everything in a compartmentalized way.

Quoting Joost (Reply 9):
it is interesting that they chose not to cater the O&D market FROM Rome, TO London.

There's no O&D market from Rome to London. They moved the hub to Rome to appease politicians and unions.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25821 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9375 times:

This LHR sale was mentioned earlier in the week in the larger Alitalia thread.
Alitalia's MXP/FCO 2008 Longhaul Changes Finalized (by Nycfly75 Dec 21 2007 in Civil Aviation)

As for its specifics - it was 3 seperate transactions, not all to one buyer.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9339 times:



Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 15):
There's no O&D market from Rome to London.

I'd say the O&D demand from Rome still exceeds the O&D demand from Varese and Como.

I think eliminating MXP-LHR is smart. Competition from BA (who DO have connection pax) is though.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 15):
But in reality it's comes down to geographic locations.

True.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 15):
AZ and the puppets in Rome see everything in a compartmentalized way.

The market is completely open. If BGY would be equally important to MXP, why do BA, IB, LH, etc choose to fly to MXP instead of BGY?

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 15):
They moved the hub to Rome to appease politicians and unions.

Agree


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5512 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8674 times:

What are the mechanics of this transfer, since, strictly speaking outright "sales" are forbidden? The acquiring airline asks for and gets some worthless pair of slots and then trades the worthless slots plus cash to AZ - and then AZ allows the worthless slots to expire from non-use?


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8650 times:

Why did AZ feel it necessary to sell slots at LHR? AZ could have done something else which would have made more sense: They could have moved those MXP slots over to LIN and increased the number of frequencies at LIN. This would have given them a schedule leg up on every other carrier between LHR and Milan and since AZ has the aircraft to make this happen, I find this move very surprising and frankly, disappointing. Milan-LHR is one of the critical markets for AZ and granted, while it could be argued that selling the slots will generate a certain amount of cash right away, the loss of those slots at LHR are critical to the success of the airline long term.

If the sale of those slots were indeed to NW, then there could be some logic behind this move. With NW adding flights into LHR, with the additional slots, it could provide feed at LHR to AZ and other SkyTeam partners, and getting prorated feed into FCO and LIN, AZ could put larger equipment, e.g. all A321s on the LHR flights and add capacity which would, with feed from NW, provide strong connecting opportunities for them at LHR (which NW needs in order to make the LHR operation a success).

Of course, it would not be beyond the realm of possibility that AF had some influence on this, since AF transferred some of their slots to NW in order to launch operations to Heathrow; the additional three slots will give NW I believe a total of six or seven frequencies into LHR...which means it could increase the DTW flights or add additional cities from which it can operate to LHR, say possibly MEM?

However, if some of those slots were sold to BA, then this makes no sense whatsoever...

Since there seems to be some question as to whom the slots were sold, I will do some checking on my own to find out who did what to whom. Bottom line, if NW got the slots, then this deal makes sense for AZ, even if it means a further pull down of its operation at MXP.

If anyone can fact check this and verify, that would be lovely; in the interim, I'll look into it and report back.

Thanks
baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8520 times:



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 19):
AZ could have moved those MXP slots over to LIN and increased the number of frequencies at LIN

For the record: LIN is at least as saturated as LHR, so it is not as if anybody can just say: let's start flying there, or in the case of AZ: let's add some extra frequencies...


User currently offlineBmiBaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7773 times:



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 2):
Any clue?

Character Issue - Finally A Long Term Solution (by Flyheligirl Dec 20 2007 in Site Related)


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9238 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7694 times:



Quoting BestWestern (Thread starter):
It refused to disclose to which airlines it had sold the slots, but it is understood that Continental Airlines, US Airways and British Airways have each bought one slot pair.

So I wonder how soon will US shift their PHL-LGW service over to LHR. I also wonder if and when US will confirm that they have one LHR slot pair. If they already have, then I guess I really have to crawl out from whatever rock I am under...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25821 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7638 times:



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
crawl out from whatever rock I am under...

Yes better crawl back..... Was announced in November.

Quote:
US Airways' Heathrow flights start March 29
Philadelphia Inquirer

US Airways announced yesterday that it would start flying March 29 between Philadelphia and London's Heathrow Airport, its first service to Europe's leading international connecting hub. The airline plans to also continue fights between Philadelphia International Airport and London Gatwick Airport, the route it has had for a decade, spokesman Philip Gee said.




From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9238 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7399 times:



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 23):
Yes better crawl back..... Was announced in November.

Quote:
US Airways' Heathrow flights start March 29
Philadelphia Inquirer

US Airways announced yesterday that it would start flying March 29 between Philadelphia and London's Heathrow Airport, its first service to Europe's leading international connecting hub. The airline plans to also continue fights between Philadelphia International Airport and London Gatwick Airport, the route it has had for a decade, spokesman Philip Gee said.

AH! I actually do remember seeing that, come to think of it. Not sure how I could forget about something like that.  silly 



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
25 Post contains images Cragley : Would it be crazy for me to suggest that the decision might have something to do with the new owners of AZ? What will AZ's role be when compared to th
26 Airdolomiti : That's pretty much it, at least as far as flights to MXP are concerned. With Malpensa being de-hubbed as of summer 2008, the current MXP-LHR flights
27 Schneeky : Does anybody know when the sale takes effect? I have a flight booked on AZ LHR to MXP in late March Worried...
28 Airdolomiti : The big cuts at MXP take effect with the 2008 summer schedule, which if I'm not mistaken begins March 30, 2008, so if you're flying before that date y
29 BAW716 : No, sir...you just answered my question...and thank you. I completely forgot about the "decreto Bersani bis" as you put it...I was working for AZ in
30 AF022 : Why were three slots valued so differently? Any ideas of when the slot times were?
31 Schneeky : Thank you Airdolomiti outbound should be safe but not sure about the return which is in April - O well good excuse to stay on the ski slopes a little
32 Azmd80 : BGY is not equal important as MXP or LIN: it's far from Milan city centre as MXP, but it is tipically a low cost and charter airport. It is not very
33 Byrdluvs747 : Any ideas as to why AA didn't jump in on this sale? Do they have more than they need or are they thinking beyond LHR?
34 WesternA318 : Simply becasue, dear Steeler, its not from PIT!
35 Joost : Yes, as (1) they really don't know yet who will be the owner and (2) these plans date back from the decision to de-hub MXP, and (3) I'd guess that bo
36 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : This is common in the US, but not allowed in the EU. If pax need to walk out of one plane and then get into another, they need to have different flig
37 AKelley728 : AA bought one pair recently from Gulf Air, so they probably have all they need right now.
38 Commavia : AA still needs three more - enough to operate one additional flight to DFW, MIA and JFK, which would bring them to a total of 20 daily slot pairs at
39 Post contains links Justloveplanes : I think that CO is one of the buyers from the FT article. Per FT, CO said they had budgeted 130 million for heathrow slots, and were still looking for
40 Post contains images EddieDude : Too bad it was not AM
41 Readytotaxi : Now that CO have found the bright lights of Heathrow, how long before they dump Gatwick completely?
42 BCA2005 : A rough guess considering the schedules before and after LHR-MXP is cut: Arrival times into LHR - 0940, 1110 and 1550 Departure times from LHR - 1205
43 WesternA318 : I dont think they will, having service to 3 of the London airports is quite a catch for them, even with 757's. I'm prettysure Gatwich will remain for
44 Steeler83 : ha-ha-ha funny... I wonder if CO will shift their CLE-LGW flights over to LHR or just leave them at LGW, while EWR and IAH go to LHR...
45 WesternA318 : I doubt it, they'll probably keep it at LGW since it is on 757's. A move to LHR would probably require at least a 762...
46 Steeler83 : Hmm... Although BA is going to fly tons of 752s into JFK, but I think that those are mostly an all-business type thing er something. Plus, that's BA,
47 Usairways85 : But as you said this is a rough guess. One has to analyze the new AZ schedules because they could have changed the timing of the remaining flts so a
48 WesternA318 : True that, but as someone else stated, LHR is not the gold mine everyone think it is, except for CO, who has a good chunk of the biz pax headed to Lo
49 MasseyBrown : Thanks. I appreciate the confirmation. It's convoluted, but what governmental isn't? Now that the initial flurry of gotta-have-'em-at-any-price slot
50 WesternA318 : Perhaps, or maybe well see the smaller cities serve LGW/STN while LHR is just for the megalopolis of the world...its too early to tell though, youre
51 GoCOgo : While some may chalk it up to out traditional CLE optimisim, I could se this slot going to CLE. They already have 2 flights from both EWR and IAH, pl
52 WesternA318 : It would be nice to hear...I thought the reason CLE doesnt see widebodies were that it was too expensive?
53 MasseyBrown : In opposing the AA/BA antitrust immunity, CO asked for enough LHR slots to support 7 EWR flights, 3 IAH flights, and 1 CLE flight. I suspect that was
54 Post contains images A330323X : US asked for 2x PHL, 1x CLT, 1x PIT, and 1x BOS. I suspect they would have settled for less too.
55 STT757 : With this latest acquisition CO will most likely have 5 daily flights from EWR to London by Summer 2008, 3 daily to Heathrow and two daily to Gatwick
56 MasseyBrown : Do you think it's five LHR flights now? I though the source of one of the four pairs was unknown (2 from GB Airways, 1 from Aer Lingus, and 1 unknown
57 STT757 : Five to London from EWR, 3 Heathrow and two Gatwick.
58 MasseyBrown : Well, it also means five to LHR, no? Three EWR-LHR and two IAH-LHR makes five LHR flights, not the four I had so far been expecting - which would be
59 BALHRWWCC : All this could be accademic. Part of the open sky's agreement is that the US had to open up it's airspace to european carriers which the US goverment
60 Jacobin777 : ..the US Govt. is dragging their feet on this one....
61 BALHRWWCC : Well lets hope they face the facts it was part of the deal and they just get on with it... It aint gonna magically be removed from the open skies agr
62 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I concur with what you are saying, but even US Govt. officials have stated they don't expect any movement...so I'm not so sure how this will pay out.
63 Post contains links MasseyBrown : That's not my recollection of the qualification. I thought that if Stage 2 talks were not sucessful, member states could ask the EU to withdraw certa
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