Jimboski93 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 20 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11773 times:
This was in the Times of India this morning:
"Indian carriers' wait for next generation planes of both Boeing and Airbus has got longer. After Airbus delayed delivery of their A-380 to Kingfisher, now Boeing has informed Air India the induction of 787 Dreamliner will miss the September 2008 schedule. AI, which is facing a severe aircraft crunch, is going to seek a hefty undisclosed amount as compensation from the US major. "
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11741 times:
I do not necessarily see evidence of "further delay" from this article. We know already that the plane is somewhat delayed, this article may refer to that same delay and AI's reaction to it.
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 39 Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11670 times:
It sounds like the "further delay" is another delay of any aircraft from Airbus and Boeing to any Indian airline. Poor phrasing seems to be the problem here, as well as being behind the times.
[Edited 2007-12-28 10:19:17]
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
Very big chance. It just doesn't mean what you think it means. The way I read the article, Air India was supposed to get its first 787 in September before the well-known delays were announced, and now it'll get the first one in February 2009. This just seems to be how the already known delay affects AI, nothing more. Remember, this article doesn't state anywhere that this is a new, additional delay.
OldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3206 posts, RR: 66 Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11636 times:
Your title is a bit mis-leading.
The 787 delay in the link is the one resulting from the slide of first flight to 1Q '08 and cert/delivery to 4Q '08. The thread title makes it sound like Boeing has announced an additional delay to this schedule, which they have not done (at least not yet).
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
Jimboski93 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 20 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11566 times:
Perhaps my bad. Apologies if that is the case...
But "miss the September 2008 schedule"?
First flight in Q1 2008... first deliveries in Sept 2008 -- what has been reiterated by BA on their last update call right?
So Air India is referring to perhaps their own "September 2008 schedule" for deliveries? As 3rd in line, that'd mean the other two carriers are getting their deliveries on time (Sept. 08) but Air India won't receive an 87 until Feb. 09?
The more times I read the article, the more ambiguity I find, but it still reads more like "new" delays.
Aerofan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1515 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11566 times:
Is it me or is this becoming a replay of the whalejet?
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4934 posts, RR: 47 Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11497 times:
Quoting Jimboski93 (Reply 5): As 3rd in line, that'd mean the other two carriers are getting their deliveries on time (Sept. 08) but Air India won't receive an 87 until Feb. 09?
Sept. 08 is not exactly "on time"...
Quoting Jimboski93 (Reply 5): but it still reads more like "new" delays.
It doesn't refer to, or even hint at, any new delays.
OldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3206 posts, RR: 66 Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11400 times:
Quoting Jimboski93 (Reply 5): So Air India is referring to perhaps their own "September 2008 schedule" for deliveries? As 3rd in line, that'd mean the other two carriers are getting their deliveries on time (Sept. 08) but Air India won't receive an 87 until Feb. 09?
No one will be getting a 787 until 4Q '08 at the earliest. This is a delay from the original schedule that had ANA taking initial deliver in May, '08.
The second paragraph in the link makes it pretty clear that it is the AI 787's that are being delayed from Sept. '08 until Feb. '09.
[Edited 2007-12-28 10:13:56]
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26726 posts, RR: 83 Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11056 times:
Quoting Jimboski93 (Thread starter): AI, which is facing a severe aircraft crunch, is going to seek a hefty undisclosed amount as compensation from the US major.
If AI would actually take delivery of their planes when ready, maybe they wouldn't have such a crunch. They had 77Ls and 77Ws sitting at PAE for months after they were ready.
As to the delay, it is likely an acknowledgment of the original delay, since airlines like NH, NW, and others are ahead of AI and none of them have noted additional delays.
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 65 Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11004 times:
The article could certainly be phrased more clearly, but more likely reading is that this refers to the one already known delay. IMO, the thread title should be changed.
Sh0rtybr0wn From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10958 times:
It doesn't matter if the 787 is delayed. At this point, what difference does it make? Its not as if airlines can go down to Home Depot and get something different. All carriers need newer more efficient widebody planes. How can Boeing lose?
Also, if Airbus can deliver the A350 without a single delay, I'd be amazed. Its increasingly complicated to control global supply chains and ever more complex manufacturing processes and systems. Even "a bit late" is an achievement.
Boeing and Airbus will just deliver them when they deliver them. Its possible both the A350 and 787 will both have over 1000 firm orders before EIS. I hope so.
RB211TriStar From United States of America, joined May 2007, 185 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9989 times:
Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 12): Also, if Airbus can deliver the A350 without a single delay, I'd be amazed. Its increasingly complicated to control global supply chains and ever more complex manufacturing processes and systems. Even "a bit late" is an achievement.
You are more on the money than anyone else I've read on these boards regarding this topic. I think a lot of people grossly underestimate the complexity of modern supply chains and their associated subcontracts.
IAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 501 posts, RR: 45 Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8522 times:
Boeing, per their call two weeks ago, said that delivery to ANA would take place by December 2008. So that immediately means that the September 2008 date for Air India is the original delivery scheme that had ANA getting it's first in May 2008 also. ZA025 is Air India's first 787. So the Times of India was just reporting the revised delivery date based on the delay that was announced October 10. The first 25 airframes will more or less go in order, so if LN25 is delivered by February 2008, that should give a good idea of the compressed delivery schedule that is being worked on here to meet 109 deliveries by end of 4Q09.
A separate question is, will there be another delay announced on top of what we've already seen? I think it's worth calling that an open question right now.
Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
Rbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 575 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8351 times:
Quoting Aerofan (Reply 6): Is it me or is this becoming a replay of the whalejet?
Lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10696 posts, RR: 100 Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6632 times:
Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 7): You forgot to add the "duck" icon at the end of your question....
Quoting EI321 (Reply 16): The 787 and A380 are not really the same. The A380 had flown by this stage.
I'm having way to much fun reading this thread...
Ok. It sounds like the 787 is still on the revised schedule.
Glideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1542 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3982 times:
Quoting EI321 (Reply 16): The 787 and A380 are not really the same. The A380 had flown by this stage.
I, a veiled attempt at a we bit of Blarney now don't ya know.
"All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved"
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 60 Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2974 times:
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 17): I'm having way to much fun reading this thread...
Should someone not come up with a metric for delays.
Months/100 tonnes Empty weight, or should it be MTOW? Then it needs to be weighted for Rollout delays, Power on delays, first flight delays, EIS delays. What have I missed? Ah yes.
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3182 posts, RR: 26 Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2935 times:
Quoting Baroque (Reply 19): Months/100 tonnes Empty weight, or should it be MTOW? Then it needs to be weighted for Rollout delays, Power on delays, first flight delays, EIS delays. What have I missed? Ah yes.
You forgot re-designs and pulling a product off offer to re-design it :P
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
Burnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7411 posts, RR: 9 Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2218 times:
This isn't new, its saying that Air India wont recieve their first 787 in September, which was the original plan, NW was one of the first carriers to get it (I believe the 2nd built 787) was to go to them in August 2008, so its actually not new.
"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
Rheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1956 posts, RR: 52 Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1890 times:
If there's any message in there, then it's this: While 787 first flight as now scheduled for end of 1Q 2008 would be seven months late, first delivery to Air India would be 5 months late only - February 2009 instead of September 2008 . This would imply that in between end of 1Q 2008 and Feb 2009 Boeing foresees to recover two months of delay. In other words, the 787 program would still be five months behind schedule in February 2009 (unless he original delivery schedule has been reshuffled, then you can't deduct anything)
Baron95 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 1335 posts, RR: 9 Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1491 times:
I think this news report is very clear when put in context of Boeing's delay announcements and reported expected delivery dates of the first 109 frames through YE/2009.
ANA first delivery May/08 (original) -> 3Q/08 (first delay estimate) -> Dec/08 (currently announced delay revision)
AI first delivery Sep/08 (original) -> 4Q/08 (first delay estimate) -> Feb/09(currently announced delay revision)
I'm not sure how new news this is, but it is interesting to see the main stream media quoting actual delivery times for 27 787s. they obviously got this from AI directly, whom I am sure got the best up to date estimate from Boeing on the delivery of those birds.
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You are more on the money than anyone else I've read on these boards regarding this topic. I think a lot of people grossly underestimate the complexity of modern supply chains and their associated subcontracts.
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