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DOT Finalizes 2009 China Authorities  
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

"By this Order we make final our tentative findings and conclusions set forth in Order 2007-9-25, and award US Airways, Inc. (US Airways) certificate authority to provide combination services in the Philadelphia-Beijing market and allocate to US Airways seven weekly combination frequencies for its Philadelphia-Beijing services. We also make final our tentative decision to allocate seven weekly combination frequencies each to American Airlines, Inc. (American) for its proposed Chicago-Beijing services, Continental Airlines, Inc. (Continental) for its proposed New York/Newark-Shanghai services, and Northwest Airlines, Inc. (Northwest) for its proposed Detroit-Shanghai services. All of these rights become available on March 25, 2009."

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...ntDetail&d=DOT-OST-2007-28567-0656

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3658 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

I'm still surprised the DOT approved US's PHL-PEK flight. Will they have the appropriate plane by then? I am excited to try CO's EWR-PVG service.

When these rights become available, do CO, NW, AA, and US plan to start service on 25Mar09 or do they have a particular timeframe to get these flights started?



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9176 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3908 times:



Quoting AznMadSci (Reply 1):
I'm still surprised the DOT approved US's PHL-PEK flight. Will they have the appropriate plane by then?

They should be getting a couple of A345s IIRC.

I see that DL wasn't awarded the China certificate (or was that this coming year), so I guess US will still go forward with their PHL-PVG route. It was stated by US, by Kirby I believe, that US would back out of PHL-PVG if DL were to start China flying. Maybe I am way wrong on this...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineSafetyDemo From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

I think it was stated by USAirways that they would not fly to China if Delta was allowed to move to the A-gates in Philadelphia, which they did. USAirways promptly backed down when the airport authority and I guess the DOT called their bluff...

-safetyDemo



Please direct your attention to the flight attendants in the cabin...
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6439 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3929 times:



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 2):
It was stated by US, by Kirby I believe, that US would back out of PHL-PVG if DL were to start China flying. Maybe I am way wrong on this...

I don't think that was ever said by US. It was said they might back out if DL got additional gates at PHL.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30525 posts, RR: 84
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3924 times:
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Updated link - http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...ntDetail&d=DOT-OST-2007-28567-0656

User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

I think it's safe to assume that US has had significant discussions with the DOT about aircraft for this route prior to this finalization - especially after Maxjet and others challenged the award recently. US should be getting 5 340s during 2008 for this and possibly another Asia route.

Here is the updated link reference (same thing):

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...ntDetail&d=DOT-OST-2007-28567-0657


User currently onlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3923 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3844 times:
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i belive we have stated service to start in May...............i"m trying to find some backing on that though.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8395 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3819 times:



Quoting Vega (Reply 6):
Maxjet

Who? Oh, the guys with the jets in Mohave... so much for that.

Quoting Vega (Reply 6):
US should be getting 5 340s during 2008 for this and possibly another Asia route.

Interesting. They should be announcing destinations very soon, then. Asia destinations need 6 to 9 months of lead time.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9176 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3805 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 4):
I don't think that was ever said by US. It was said they might back out if DL got additional gates at PHL.

Oh, right. So then I was half-right... I think I saw somewhere that DL is getting those A-East gates, which will give WN the extra gates while they build a hammerhead at the end of Concourse E. My, is PHL a mess...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3796 times:



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 9):
My, is PHL a mess...

Was it ever anything else? lol



Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9176 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3743 times:



Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 10):
Was it ever anything else? lol

Yeah, a less-severe mess  Wink

Although I think that some 20 years ago it was a pretty decent airport. Of course that was long before the massive build-up of USAir and the entrance and subsuquent buildup of WN...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8186 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3689 times:



Quoting AznMadSci (Reply 1):
I'm still surprised the DOT approved US's PHL-PEK flight.

Why? As the only major US international carrier without service to China (DL will get it in '08), it seems only fair that they would get it. This has been discussed to length here and it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5607 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3689 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Interesting. They should be announcing destinations very soon, then. Asia destinations need 6 to 9 months of lead time.

??? They have 15 months before the authority becomes effective, on your basis that means ithey have 6 to 9 months before they need to announce anything.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

I propose that we keep this discussion about the 2009 U.S. (all airlines) China award confirmation and not turn it into another airport/airline bashing thread, which too many here on A-net seem to thrive on. The routes have been awarded by the governments and that is the fact of the situation - regardless of who disagrees with it.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 7):
i belive we have stated service to start in May...............i"m trying to find some backing on that though.

I assume you are asking about CO. If so, I believe their proposed startup date for EWR-Shanghai was March 25, 2009.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Interesting. They should be announcing destinations very soon, then. Asia destinations need 6 to 9 months of lead time.
??? They have 15 months before the authority becomes effective, on your basis that means ithey have 6 to 9 months before they need to announce anything.

I believe he is referring to a 2nd Asia route (not PHL-PEK).


User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3588 times:

Can someone please explain how these DOT awards work? Does the DOT negotiate with the Chineese authorities on flying rights and then award them to the highest bidder, be it US, UA, AA etc? How much of a free market between US based carriers is it really?

User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3455 times:



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 11):
Of course that was long before the massive build-up of USAir and the entrance and subsuquent buildup of WN...

LOL, but anywho, kudos to US for getting the award, and  champagne  heres to seeing beautiful A340s in US' colors at PHL!



Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8395 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3437 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):

??? They have 15 months before the authority becomes effective, on your basis that means ithey have 6 to 9 months before they need to announce anything.

Right, but I was thinking they would announce an Asian destination for late 2008 as well. Maybe not... who knows, maybe PEK will be their first Asian destination. It's looking more like that every day. Why not...

More to the point, US' other Asian destinations besides Beijing remain a mystery.


User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3437 times:
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wow, according to my GDS, Phl-Pek is 6878 miles, that has to be amongst the worlds longest routes for the A340-300, aka the gutless wonder. I wonder why US wouldn't consider a larger aircraft, say the 777 or the A345/346, i wonder why they decided on the 343 over the clearly more capable 777/345/346 or 77W?


Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3378 times:



Quoting Boysteve (Reply 15):
Can someone please explain how these DOT awards work? Does the DOT negotiate with the Chinese authorities on flying rights and then award them to the highest bidder, be it US, UA, AA etc? How much of a free market between US based carriers is it really?

Basically, the U.S. DOT negotiates with it's China counterpart for so many new Slots into China (not to be confused with airport Slots). Each Slot enables a carrier to transport passengers/cargo or cargo only, to a specific major city in China (Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou). The route authority, once granted cannot be sold for a certain number of years - usually 5. Although the routes are negotiated by and finally decided by the two DOTs, they are frequently highly influenced by political pressure within the countries.
Once agreed, the U.S. DOT determines how to segment the authority by Chinese city, route start dates and carrier requirements, then issues a formal Solicitation to all airlines to competitively bid for the routes. Each interested carrier submits a formal Proposal (based on the Solicitation guidelines) and includes such particulars as U.S. originating city and it's purported benefits from the service, Schedules, aircraft type, etc.. There are no monetary considerations, since the awards (Slots) are Fee Free. Following (or even before) submission of the carrier Proposals, the political process begins, resulting in waves of correspondence and pressures from politicians and local businesses to the DOT - much of which is circular filed. There is also a period of "mudslinging" correspondence from disgruntled employees and passengers, as well as competing carriers. Once the DOT reaches a decision, they publish an "Order" granting the route authorities, either finally or tentatively. The "Tentative" authorities have been made "Final" with the subject of this thread.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 18):
wow, according to my GDS, Phl-Pek is 6878 miles, that has to be amongst the worlds longest routes for the A340-300, aka the gutless wonder. I wonder why US wouldn't consider a larger aircraft, say the 777 or the A345/346...,

The A340-300 has an advertised range of over 7200nm (based on engine type) and should have little problem with 6500nm. PHL-PEK is 5977nm. I do agree however, that the 345 would be a more prudent choice for further near term Asia expansion and said so several times in this Forum.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
More to the point, US' other Asian destinations besides Beijing remain a mystery.

US (Parker) has already stated in analyst conferences a desire for PHL-NRT. Obviously a problem is Slot availability at NRT.


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3299 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3370 times:



Quoting AznMadSci (Reply 1):
I'm still surprised the DOT approved US's PHL-PEK flight.

Especially after the temper tantrum they threw over gate assignments at PHL.


User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2015 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Where on earth is CO going to get the 777s for this route?

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8395 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3267 times:



Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 21):
Where on earth is CO going to get the 777s for this route?

Maybe you missed the thread, but CO has just gotten a couple of 777s from the Boeing factory.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3250 times:



Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 21):
Where on earth is CO going to get the 777s for this route?



Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
Maybe you missed the thread, but CO has just gotten a couple of 777s from the Boeing factory.

 checkmark  Two factory fresh 772ERs...and maybe perhaps they'll pick up another example or two from Singapore?



Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2015 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

I thought the two new 777's were Mumbai bound? Or are these ones different??

25 WesternA318 : I think these are the same ones...however, I think CO can juggle the scheduling of the flights...
26 SFOHORIZON : So when do the next round of route authorities go out for bidding, as I understand it, there are several already lined up to be bid on for 2010-2012,
27 Klwright69 : Yes, that is my point...CO schedules their widebodies to the max.. I do not know how they will squeeze more use out of them. I am sure DUTCHJET will
28 STT757 : Those were acquired for Shanghai in 2007, however CO was not awarded the 2007 China authority (it went to UAL for IAD-PEK). Instead CO used the two n
29 Nrcnyc : Can someone explain to me why we need the DOT to decide if US carriers can fly to China? I would understand if the Chinese only gave us a few new flig
30 Post contains images A330323X : Uh, what? DL will be flying to China a year before US will.
31 Bobnwa : Not one thing in your statement is correct. US has never flown to China, so could hardly pull out. Delta will be flying to China next year and has an
32 Atmx2000 : We don't have open skies since China is interested in protecting their airlines from the amount of competition that US would be able to generate due
33 Silentbob : and all those gates WN will be getting when the hammerhead is done should make things even more fun.
34 Steeler83 : Where's a picture of a congested freeway when you need one? Man... very soon, those jetways/taxi-ways will soon be confused with I-95... Conjestion,
35 AirNZ : Sorry, could you perhaps explain that?
36 FWAERJ : Maybe NH can sell them a pair of NRT slots in exchange for codesharing? After all, NH is a Star Alliance member, just like US is...
37 NorthstarBoy : It's just my own bias against the 343, compared to other aircraft in it's size category, IMO the A343 is underpowered, the takeoffs are practically a
38 WesternA318 : I can attest to this, as I've taken Olympic's A340's to Athens from NY/JFK...I thought we would end up in the bay!
39 Steeler83 : So I take it that the A340 pretty much putters its way through the air?
40 WesternA318 : Once at altitude, shes ok, but on the way up, lmao...what aa joke...
41 Post contains images Steeler83 : Oohh... so it's like in the Children''s book, "The Little GE Engines that Could"   "I think I can. I think I can. I think I can..." EDIT: Add "The L
42 RayChuang : I wouldn't be surprised that US Airways does a 7-10 year lease on a small number of A340-300's so it can fly PHL-PEK nonstop. (If I remember correctly
43 Steeler83 : I thought they were leasing A340-500s, but I guess I am mistaken...
44 Flighty : Interesting, looks like I got owned. Thanks. But, it sounds like CO may be able to squeak by on its current 777 fleet, by leaning ever harder on the
45 Silentbob : US has said 343 from day one
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