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Observed Today: A319 Gear Down 11km After Take Off  
User currently offlineUmfolozi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10310 times:

DUR is 11 km ( 7 miles) from my home as the crow flies, and many of the JNB bound flights pass right over our house. Early this morning, I observed something strange. I saw this JNB bound A319 taking off, but it was flying lower than usual and immediately noticed that the gear was still down. I ran into the house and grabbed my binoculars, ran outside again and tried to follow the plane. So when I had the plane into focus the undercarriage was up......and I was baffled. I know what I saw, the undercarriage was definitely down when I saw it the first time. I wonder what happened here. This is over 7 miles from the airport.  confused 

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10271 times:

The brakes were probably hot from the inbound flight so they were extended a bit longer than normal to allow them to cool before retracting.

Darren



Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineDispatcher From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 253 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10004 times:

It also could have had a brake inop, when that happens the MEL states the gear should be left down for 1 minute in order to allow the tire / wheel to stop spinning. Then there is always the possibility they simply forgot to put them up!  Wink

User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9976 times:

I've seen that twice always with Kuwait Airways , they took off on rw18 at FRA (343) and made the turn to the left , the A/C went into the clouds still with the gear down .

Strange maybe Kuwait Airways has a special rule ...

Constantin


User currently offlineCrjflyer35 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 668 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9799 times:

I agree, most likely hot brakes. Happens often here in PHX too.


Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 9581 times:

Cooling. In Abu Dhabi we had extremely hot surface temps, and combined with hard braking on arrival, I once saw a 747SP passing F100 with gear down some 10-15nm away... Iran Air it was, and I asked radar to check, and the pilot said it's for cooling...


A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9326 times:

One more explanation.

I was once on a flight (it was a BA A319, I can't for the life of me remember the route though...) and the captain announced that he would keep the gear down for longer than usual after take off, but we should not worry about it as it'd be a planned action. After we landed I bumped into him on the way out and I asked him what was wrong. He said that the sensor confirming that there is weight on one each gear was broken for one of the gears. So the plane after take off could not confirm that all the gear were not carrying weight (an indication that the plane is flying) to allow the gear to be retracted. So, the plane had to rely on the secondary check, which was that the plane is travelling at a certain speed, but the wheels are not turning (or maybe are not turning fast, I can't remember by now). So, after take off, we had to wait for the wheels to stop spinning before the gear was retracted.

FWIW,

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6133 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8669 times:
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One of my best friends is an F/O for UX on the 737's. He has told me it's not that uncommon to forget about raising the gear.


MGGS
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8272 times:



Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
One of my best friends is an F/O for UX on the 737's. He has told me it's not that uncommon to forget about raising the gear.

It sure as hell should be. Isn't the first callout after rotation something like "positive rate, gear up"?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineConjureMe From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7940 times:



Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
One of my best friends is an F/O for UX on the 737's. He has told me it's not that uncommon to forget about raising the gear.

Maybe it's not uncommon to PURPOSELY leave the gear extended. However, as Mir stated, gear retraction in normal conditions should come with a positive rate on the altimeter and IVSI. To "forget" gear retraction shows a lack of professionalism. If that truly happens, it makes me wonder what other challenge/response checklist items your friend is missing.



Never let the plane take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes ago.
User currently offlineArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7873 times:

I'm sure it was hot brakes. I've been on at least 5-6 flights where the gear is left retracted for about 10-15 mins after departure in order to cool them down. Every single time it was on an A-321. Is there any significance to this? Is this an Airbus thing or was it merely coincidence?

User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7821 times:



Quoting SNATH (Reply 6):
I was once on a flight (it was a BA A319, I can't for the life of me remember the route though...) and the captain announced that he would keep the gear down for longer than usual after take off, but we should not worry about it as it'd be a planned action.

Why would the captain need to announce this? Pax can't see the gear anyway and wouldn't even know the difference (and before anyone says it, I REALLY doubt any pax would notice the lack of a gear retraction sound)

Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
One of my best friends is an F/O for UX on the 737's. He has told me it's not that uncommon to forget about raising the gear.

I would hope it is VERY uncommon. As others have said, most airlines (mine included) have an immediate call of "positive rate, gear up". If you can't even remember something as simple as putting the gear up, what happens when the shit hits the fan and you need to remember your immediate action items.



Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7782 times:



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 11):
Why would the captain need to announce this? Pax can't see the gear anyway and wouldn't even know the difference (and before anyone says it, I REALLY doubt any pax would notice the lack of a gear retraction sound)

Actually everytime I've been on a flight where this happened, the Captain pointed it out too. Plus, you really can hear the difference when the gear retracts. I would say it's pretty noticable...


User currently offlineSuper Em From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7565 times:

Most likely hot brakes. I remember one day at the field I saw a Virgin A346 taking off and the gear being down well past their climb out. I was standing next to a mechanic and he too assumed it had to be brakes. Before it was out of our view, the gears went up.

You would be surprised as to how long it takes for brakes to cool down. On the A320' s it sometimes takes close to 25 to 30 minutes for the brakes to cool down. Sometimes she would be ready for her next destination and the fans would still be on.


User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7503 times:



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 12):
Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 11):
Why would the captain need to announce this? Pax can't see the gear anyway and wouldn't even know the difference (and before anyone says it, I REALLY doubt any pax would notice the lack of a gear retraction sound)

Actually everytime I've been on a flight where this happened, the Captain pointed it out too. Plus, you really can hear the difference when the gear retracts. I would say it's pretty noticable...

Though the passengers would probably not notice a gear retraction sound immediately after takeoff, some would wonder why there is such a loud sound a little bit after takeoff...



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineNwAflyer07 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6815 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
It sure as hell should be. Isn't the first callout after rotation something like "positive rate, gear up"?

Perhaps they said that and forgot to put the gear up. A few times on the ramp before pushback pilots have said "breaks released, clear to push" and forgot to actually release them.


User currently offlineEireRock From Ireland, joined Nov 2007, 301 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6206 times:



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 10):
Every single time it was on an A-321. Is there any significance to this? Is this an Airbus thing or was it merely coincidence

Well some of the Boeing series a/c(maybe wrong but 737 doesnt) dont have brake fans and associated brake temp indications like Airbus so im pretty sure thats why.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6133 posts, RR: 30
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5836 times:
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Quoting NwAflyer07 (Reply 15):
Perhaps they said that and forgot to put the gear up. A few times on the ramp before pushback pilots have said "breaks released, clear to push" and forgot to actually release them.

One time, my friend told me, they were on a MAD-CDG flight, and 20 mins into the flight, a company dead-heading captain entered the cockpit and pointed out that the gear was still down.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just recounting what he has told me regarding this topic.



MGGS
User currently offlineBrick From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5555 times:

I was on a DEN-BWI flight last year on a United A319 (N844UA to be exact). Everything was normal after departure until a loud thump went through the cabin about 120 seconds after take-off. It was enough to get everyone looking around at each other quite nervously. About 5 minutes later the captain got on the PA and explained the gear was left down after take-off because "they were showing a little hot" and he apoligized for not telling the passengers in advance.

A month later I took the exact same aircraft ANC-DEN. A coworker happen to be on the arriving flight from DEN and he reported the same experience I had a month earlier. I guess the brakes heating up hotter the normal wasn't a burning maintenance issue, excuse the pun.  Smile



A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5465 times:



Quoting Dispatcher (Reply 2):
Then there is always the possibility they simply forgot to put them up!

Hopefully not, as the gear is a memory item.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):

One time, my friend told me, they were on a MAD-CDG flight, and 20 mins into the flight, a company dead-heading captain entered the cockpit and pointed out that the gear was still down.

Remind me never to fly that particular airline.


User currently offlineKLMD11L From New Zealand, joined Dec 2007, 123 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5260 times:



Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
One of my best friends is an F/O for UX on the 737's. He has told me it's not that uncommon to forget about raising the gear.

At least they don't forget to extend the landing gear before landing!!!  silly  If it's a once in a while occurrence it's understandable, but to be "not uncommon" it's quite worrying, Don't you think so?!



KLM MD-11...The Ultimate Flying Machine!
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4695 times:



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 11):
Why would the captain need to announce this? Pax can't see the gear anyway and wouldn't even know the difference (and before anyone says it, I REALLY doubt any pax would notice the lack of a gear retraction sound)

Well, the ride with the gear down is noticeably louder and passengers who fly a lot might have noticed that something was wrong (it was definitely noticeable to me at least).

On another flight (it was a Sabena flight from BRU to GLA, but operated by a British World Airlines BAC-111 IIRC), the pilot before landing announced that the loud noise from the back immediately after touchdown (i.e., the thrust reversers!!!) was a normal part of the landing procedure.  Smile

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4385 times:



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 10):
Every single time it was on an A-321. Is there any significance to this?

The A321 uses essentially the same braking system as the rest of the A320 family, and being the heaviest weight variant in the family, the A321 does work the brakes harder, so they get hotter. The A321 is the most likely variant in the family to suffer with hot brakes.

Quoting EireRock (Reply 16):
Well some of the Boeing series a/c(maybe wrong but 737 doesnt) dont have brake fans and associated brake temp indications like Airbus so im pretty sure thats why.

Brake cooling fans are optional, not standard fit, on the A320 family. In the main, the airlines that opt for the cooling fans tend to be those airlines that operate with the shortest of turnaround times/heaviest passenger/cargo loads - usually LCCs and charter carriers (although there are exceptions to this generalisation).



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlinePeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4352 times:



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 11):
Pax can't see the gear anyway and wouldn't even know the difference (and before anyone says it, I REALLY doubt any pax would notice the lack of a gear retraction sound)



Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 14):
Though the passengers would probably not notice a gear retraction sound immediately after takeoff, some would wonder why there is such a loud sound a little bit after takeoff...



Quoting SNATH (Reply 21):
Well, the ride with the gear down is noticeably louder and passengers who fly a lot might have noticed that something was wrong (it was definitely noticeable to me at least).

I agree with AirPortugal310 and SNATH. It would be far easier (and more professional) for the captain to explain the reason behind the unusual roar before dozens of passengers begin freaking out and pestering the cabin crew.

I'm not sure if it's policy but I've noticed that Qantas pilots always provide a lot of detail when things are not as they should be. I was recently on a flight and, before take-off, the captain's seat was broken. Well, we were not only told this but we practically got a running commentary of the repair work being carried out. Not kidding.

Before I really got stuck into this wonderful world of aviation, I always appreciated hearing the captain's voice whenever something unexpected occurred (ie: turbulence, louder than expected noises). We shouldn't forget that we Anetters are not representative of the general flying public.



Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
User currently offlineStevenG From Netherlands, joined Oct 2005, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4152 times:



Quoting SNATH (Reply 21):
Well, the ride with the gear down is noticeably louder and passengers who fly a lot might have noticed that something was wrong (it was definitely noticeable to me at least).

A couple of years ago I was on a flight from FRA to PRG which had been delayed already for technical reasons.
Finally after boarding and before take-off we were been told that for certain reasons (I can't remember which ones) the landing gear would remain down during the whole flight. The captain told that this was a safe procedure although we would fly at a lower altitude and the flight would take about 20 minutes longer. He also told about the noise during the flight. Indeed it made more noise but none of the passengers seemed to be nervous of this event.


25 GrahamHill : Pardon my ignorance, but don't the brakes have enough time to cool off between landing and take off?
26 Irish251 : They may not if the turnaround is short, but in addition they may well be used during taxi for departure. Where taxi distances are long and aircraft
27 TristarSteve : When you retract the undercarriage on most airliners, selecting undercarriage up will apply the brakes. Solely to stop the wheels spinning before ret
28 Mir : You don't normally use the brakes during takeoff, but if you have to abort, you REALLY use them. That's why they have temperature limits for takeoff.
29 Wirelock : probably caused the landing gear selector valve or door selector valve failure. gear up sequence would not work on one gear up selection but works wh
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