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LHR Slots Trade In 2007  
User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

With the Alitalia 25% slots sale at LHR, I was wondering; Can we make a list of all airlines which bought / sold LHR slots this year?

Thanks a lot

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

Luxair, Gulf Air and GB Airways have sold slots. AF and KL have also got rid of some, but will they have sold them to their Skyteam partners or just 'donated' them to their transatlantic joint ventures (i.e. you can have the slots but we keep half the revenue on the flights you use them for)?

NW, AA, CO, DL, US and I think EK have bought some this year



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User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3621 times:

Qatar Airways also purchased some slots, however they were from GB Airways IIRC.

Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3556 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 1):

AF "leased" LHR slots to DL and sold them to CO
KL "leased" LHR slots to NW

SkyTeam LHR-USA flight:
ATL-LHR 1x daily (DL) 763ER
JFK-LHR 2x daily (DL) 763ER
LAX-LHR 1x daily (AF) 772ER(?)
IAH-LHR 2x daily (CO) 772ER and 762ER
EWR-LHR 2x daily (CO) 772ER and 762ER(?)
MSP-LHR 1x daily (NW) A333
DTW-LHR 1x daily (NW) A333
SEA-LHR 1x daily (NW) A332

SkyTeam LGW-USA flights:
ATL-LGW 2x daily (DL) 764ER and 763ER
JFK-LGW 1x daily (DL) 752
CVG-LGW 1x daily (DL) 763ER
DTW-LGW 1x daily (NW) 752
EWR-LGW 1x daily (CO) 752



yep.
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

Can we expect to see passenger totals rise at LHR given that many of the sold slots were being used for small narrowbodies and are now to be used for large widebodies?

Also, will the opening of the new T5 increase the number of widebody gates available for use? I read somewhere that T2 is going to close and be rebuilt, and a 777 does not fit in the same gate as a 737 or A320.


User currently offlineNateDAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3531 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 3):
AF "leased" LHR slots to DL and sold them to CO
KL "leased" LHR slots to NW

SkyTeam LHR-USA flight:
ATL-LHR 1x daily (DL) 763ER
JFK-LHR 2x daily (DL) 763ER
LAX-LHR 1x daily (AF) 772ER(?)
IAH-LHR 2x daily (CO) 772ER and 762ER
EWR-LHR 2x daily (CO) 772ER and 762ER(?)
MSP-LHR 1x daily (NW) A333
DTW-LHR 1x daily (NW) A333
SEA-LHR 1x daily (NW) A332

SkyTeam LGW-USA flights:
ATL-LGW 2x daily (DL) 764ER and 763ER
JFK-LGW 1x daily (DL) 752
CVG-LGW 1x daily (DL) 763ER
DTW-LGW 1x daily (NW) 752
EWR-LGW 1x daily (CO) 752

You missed

IAH-LGW 1x daily (CO) 764ER



Set Love Free
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3502 times:



Quoting NateDAL (Reply 5):
You missed

IAH-LGW 1x daily (CO) 764ER

dang i though they where stoping IAH-LGW my bad



yep.
User currently offlinePhatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1363 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3457 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 6):
dang i though they where stoping IAH-LGW my bad

What about the seasonal CO CLE-LGW 752W? It's on the schedule for summer 2008.


User currently offlineFUN2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1091 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 12 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3283 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 3):
SkyTeam LGW-USA flights:
ATL-LGW 2x daily (DL) 764ER and 763ER
JFK-LGW 1x daily (DL) 752
CVG-LGW 1x daily (DL) 763ER
DTW-LGW 1x daily (NW) 752
EWR-LGW 1x daily (CO) 752

For CO:

IAH>LGW 1x Daily 764
EWR>LGW 2x Daily 752
CLE>LGW 1x Daily 752 Seasonal


User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 12 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

Also the old BMED slots that BA bought from BMI as part of the deal for BMI purchasing BMED.

User currently offlineAABB777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 613 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (6 years 12 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3053 times:
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Gulf Air has sold one pair of slots to AA.

Etihad has secured one pair of slots from Air Canada on a short-term lease, only for the 2008 summer season.


User currently offlineNwa757300 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 299 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 12 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2924 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 1):
NW, AA, CO, DL, US and I think EK have bought some this year

So, did NW buy slots in addition to the slots they got from KL/AF?


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7742 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (6 years 12 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2798 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 4):
Also, will the opening of the new T5 increase the number of widebody gates available for use?

In Europe airports operate differently to in the USA. Gate availability is not an issue. All gates are owned and controlled by the airport operator who charges its customers for gate or stand occupancy by the minute. This encourages airlines to move aircraft from gates. So, for example, both QF and SA have an arrangement with BA. Both of these airlines have aircraft that arrive at LHR in the early morning with late evening scheduled departures. Their arrangement with BA allows them to each park one aircraft all day on the north ramp of the British Airways East Engineering Base at Heathrow. No doubt BA charges the airlines less than they would pay BAA to park the aircraft on one of their remote stands.

As the airlines pay for gates by the minute they are keen to vacate them quickly. And the airport operator can use any gate for any aircraft. So, for example, if all T4 gates at LHR were in use when an aircraft operating to T4 arrived BAA would direct the aircraft to a remote stand or even a gate at another terminal. The passengers and their baggage would be transported directly from the aircraft by coach to T4. (The chances of every terminal and remote stand at LHR being occupied at one time can be ignored. Afterall the airport is slot bound and this means that there is a departure every couple of minutes.)

Quoting Theginge (Reply 9):
Also the old BMED slots that BA bought from BMI as part of the deal for BMI purchasing BMED.

This was the biggest deal of the year. It involved 51 slots.


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2724 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 12):
And the airport operator can use any gate for any aircraft.

Not true. Certain gates at LHR are narrowbody gates only. For example, in Terminal 4, gates 15-20 are for narrowbodies, and gate 21 can only take up to 767-size aircraft.


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (6 years 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2543 times:



Quoting Nwa757300 (Reply 11):
Quoting Humberside (Reply 1):
NW, AA, CO, DL, US and I think EK have bought some this year

So, did NW buy slots in addition to the slots they got from KL/AF?

I should have said obtained instead of bought since I dont know the precise terms of NW getting it's slots. I presume lease from KL and/or AF



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (6 years 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2511 times:



Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 8):

IAH>LGW 1x Daily 764
EWR>LGW 2x Daily 752
CLE>LGW 1x Daily 752 Seasonal

crap i don't know CO......im a Delta guy sorry guys



yep.
User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1161 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2488 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 1):
EK have bought some this year

EK never bought any slots in Heathrow in 2007


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7742 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (6 years 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 2401 times:



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 13):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 12):
And the airport operator can use any gate for any aircraft.

Not true. Certain gates at LHR are narrowbody gates only. For example, in Terminal 4, gates 15-20 are for narrowbodies, and gate 21 can only take up to 767-size aircraft.

Then let me put it another way. In the USA the airline is the owner of the lease of the gate. Often the airline is the owner of the lease of the terminal. So while the freehold of T7 at JFK is owned by the airport operator, the Port Authority of New York, its lease is owned by BA. (BOAC built the terminal back in the early 1970s and BA thoroughly updated it in the late 90s.) BA operates 6 of the 12 gates in T7. BA sub leases the other 6 gates to, amongst others, UA. The PAoNY has no control of the use of any of the gates in T7. So, if all the gates in all the other terminals at JFK were being used, but none were being used at T7, the Port Authority still could not direct any arriving aircraft to a T7 gate. As a result the availability of a gate at JFK is the nearest equivalent to the availability of a landing slot at LHR. (Until the very recent intervention of the FAA any airline with authority to operate into JFK could time its aircraft to arrive at a time of its choice. There are no landing or take off slots as such. The only constraint apart from taking your place in a queue in a stack was the availability of a gate.) And in the US the airport operator, which is usually a public body like the Port Authority of New York, does not get income because it rents out the gate or stand for the use of a specific aircraft for a matter of minutes or hours. It gets its income through leasing the gate for a period of weeks, months or years for the exclusive use of a specific airline.

On the other hand all the gates at LHR are owned and controlled by the airport operator, BAA. While of course BAA can only designate a 380 to use one of the gates or stands that it has made large enough for the 380 (and it is in the power of BAA to make all or no gates at LHR suitable for handling the 380), which aircraft uses which gate or stand at LHR is determined not by the airline but by BAA. It then charges the airline for every minute that the aircraft it has allocated to a gate or stand uses that gate or stand. (It also makes an arrival and departure charge based on the maximum landing and take-off weight and a fixed charge per passenger carried.)

So although BA will be the only operator operating out of T5 this does not mean you will not see the aircraft of other airlines at T5 gates or on T5 stands. But if you are a passenger on a non-BA flight that uses a T5 stand or gate you will not use T5 itself. You will be bussed to/from the aircraft from the terminal usually used by your airline. But rather obviously you will not see a VS 380 at a T5 gate or on a T5 stand that is not large enough to take a 380.

I hope the above explains the very important differences in how international airports in the UK and US are administered and operated. It is important because you will see in many threads that our North American friends are not entirely familiar with the arrival and departure slot system operated in Europe while most Europeans have little if any perception of the elements that effectively control the administration of arrivals and departures at very busy American airports. Our American friends are more familiar with our situation than we of theirs because of the ease of access (or otherwise) for American Airlines to slot bound airports like LHR. It is important that we catch up with them as the American FAA has recently clearly stated a need to address the total chaos that is in danger of developing at airports like JFK unless some additional voluntary or mandatory controls are introduced.


User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2259 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 12):
As the airlines pay for gates by the minute they are keen to vacate them quickly. And the airport operator can use any gate for any aircraft. So, for example, if all T4 gates at LHR were in use when an aircraft operating to T4 arrived BAA would direct the aircraft to a remote stand or even a gate at another terminal. The passengers and their baggage would be transported directly from the aircraft by coach to T4. (The chances of every terminal and remote stand at LHR being occupied at one time can be ignored. Afterall the airport is slot bound and this means that there is a departure every couple of minutes.)

British Airways control the stands in Terminal 1 & 4 at Heathrow at the moment, although this will change with T5 opening and they will hand back control to the BAA. There is close colaboration with the BAA in this though. The BAA control the stands for T2 & T3.
It is very unlikely that if T4 was full up a BA aircraft would be sent to another Terminal, although this has happend a number of times but only when there is something like snow or extreme winds affecting the operation of the airport or something along those lines.
They rarely move aircraft to differnent terminals, apart from BA. Have never seen a United at T4 and a Qantas at T1!
Remote stands are a different matter entirely when it comes to remote parking of aircraft and then aircraft sometimes park at different terminals, but it is mainly at the current T3/T5 remote stands where this happens.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
So although BA will be the only operator operating out of T5 this does not mean you will not see the aircraft of other airlines at T5 gates or on T5 stands. But if you are a passenger on a non-BA flight that uses a T5 stand or gate you will not use T5 itself. You will be bussed to/from the aircraft from the terminal usually used by your airline. But rather obviously you will not see a VS 380 at a T5 gate or on a T5 stand that is not large enough to take a 380.

I believe that BA will control the stands in T5 using a similar arrangement with the BAA as they do at the moment. As T5 is not big enough for BA I don't think you will see another airline at a T5 gate apart from BA.

See the below link from Eurocontrol, provides a comprehensive explanation of LHR's operation. Page 35 onwards details how stand planning works.

http://www.euro-cdm.org/docs/heathro...throw%20CDM%20EEC%20Note_03-05.pdf


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7742 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2204 times:



Quoting Theginge (Reply 18):
See the below link from Eurocontrol, provides a comprehensive explanation of LHR's operation.

Many thanks for your imformative comments and the link to the interesting Eurocontrol document.

Quoting Theginge (Reply 18):
It is very unlikely that if T4 was full up a BA aircraft would be sent to another Terminal, although this has happend a number of times but only when there is something like snow or extreme winds affecting the operation of the airport or something along those lines.

My Reply 17 was somewhat based on my own experiences. On one occasion many years ago (early 90s? - I believe it was a flight from CDG) my BA aircraft parked on one of the remote stands located in the area that is effectively near to both Pier 2 of T2 and the Europier of T1. We were then bussed from the aircraft not to T1 but through the tunnel to T4 which was the scheduled terminal for that particular flight. I recall this primarilly because it was the only time I have been bussed through the tunnel from the west end of T2 below runway 27L/09R to emerge west of T4. I do not recall other detail like the weather that may have led to the 'diversion' of the aircraft after landing. On another occasion I was bussed from a T1 gate to a BA aircraft located on a remote stand on the other side of T3.

However the important point is that it illustrates that these arrangements can and do occur in the UK, however rarely. Here the allocatrion of arrival and departure slots determines whether an airline can or cannot operate a particular flight out of an airport and not if there is an available gate. This is not the case in the USA where gate availability is usually the controlling factor as each gate is allocated (leased) to a specific airline at a specific time or at least it was until the FAA very recently steped in to try to resolve the peak time congestion that is begining to snarl up all operations at JFK.


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2100 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
Then let me put it another way.

No need, I understood your point.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
So although BA will be the only operator operating out of T5 this does not mean you will not see the aircraft of other airlines at T5 gates or on T5 stands. But if you are a passenger on a non-BA flight that uses a T5 stand or gate you will not use T5 itself.

This only happens now. It will not happen when T5 is operational. Other airlines operating from other terminals will not move their staff to T5 to meet arrivals/departures. What is the source of your information?



Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
I hope the above explains the very important differences in how international airports in the UK and US are administered and operated. It is important because you will see in many threads that our North American friends are not entirely familiar with the arrival and departure slot system operated in Europe while most Europeans have little if any perception of the elements that effectively control the administration of arrivals and departures at very busy American airports.

Hmm. As you quoted me, I'm assuming your response is also directed toward me. In which case, thanks very much for the explanation, I hope other readers found it to be of use. Personally, having worked in the US for a US carrier and now in the UK at LHR for a UK carrier for the past three years, I do have first-hand experience of both operations.

I do agree that perhaps, to alleviate over-crowding at LHR, the US system of gate allocation as opposed to landing slot allocation could be of use, however, European airports also rely heavily on remote stands, which are somewhat rare in the US. I've personally only ever experienced remote stands at LAX, and then even these use jetbridges and ramps down to the bussing level for transportation to the Tom Bradley Terminal. IMHO, capacity at LHR is being managed as best it can at the current time, without a 3rd runway in use or mixed-mode operation.

Quoting Theginge (Reply 18):
British Airways control the stands in Terminal 1 & 4 at Heathrow at the moment, although this will change with T5 opening and they will hand back control to the BAA. There is close colaboration with the BAA in this though. The BAA control the stands for T2 & T3.

Right. And therefore, BA will not put a T4 flight over in the central area, and vice-versa. With the cutbacks in the passenger bussing operation at LHR, this simply isn't an option any more.

Quoting Theginge (Reply 18):
I believe that BA will control the stands in T5 using a similar arrangement with the BAA as they do at the moment. As T5 is not big enough for BA I don't think you will see another airline at a T5 gate apart from BA.

You are correct sir. BA will indeed control the stand allocation at T5. In fact, the plan for March 27th is already determined. I can tell you which gates are going to be used for the BA302 to CDG at 0620, and the arriving BA26 from HKG at 0450, for example.

So, back to the topic in hand - slot trades at LHR in 2007. Does anyone know of any more?


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7742 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1964 times:



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 20):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
So although BA will be the only operator operating out of T5 this does not mean you will not see the aircraft of other airlines at T5 gates or on T5 stands. But if you are a passenger on a non-BA flight that uses a T5 stand or gate you will not use T5 itself.

This only happens now. It will not happen when T5 is operational. Other airlines operating from other terminals will not move their staff to T5 to meet arrivals/departures. What is the source of your information?

Sorry. I am confused. I said that 'if you are a passenger on a non-BA flight that uses a T5 stand or gate you will not use T5 itself'. You say 'Other airlines operating from other terminals will not move their staff to T5 to meet arrivals/.departures.' Clearly it would be a waste of resources to send staff to T5 to meet or dispatch passengers that were being bussed straight to another terminal where the airline has resident staff. Indeed your statement confirms my own. But you then ask for the source of my information. Well, now you have made yourself one of my sources.

If you have read my Reply 19 you will have seen that another source of my information is my own experience in being bused at LHR from a remote stand near T1/T2 to T4 on arriving from (I think) CDG on a BA flight and on being bussed from T1 to a remote stand beyond T3 when departing on a BA short haul flight. If you have any data that shows that this relatively rare practice simply will never happen after T5 is 'operational' and therefore no passengers will ever be bussed from a T5 gate or stand to T1, T3 or T4 I would welcome it. But such a situation would destroy some of the current flexibility in the LHR system that, frankly, needs every bit of flexibility it can find.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 20):

I do agree that perhaps, to alleviate over-crowding at LHR, the US system of gate allocation as opposed to landing slot allocation could be of use

I disagree. As you will know the congestion at peak hours at JFK (where there is no slot allocation and the only restriction on airport use is the availability of an airline leased gate for the arriving aircraft) has resulted in the recent intervention of the FAA. They are seeking an alternative solution, preferably a voluntary agreement amogst airlines to reduce peak time arrivals and departures. To introduce a system at LHR that is at the least not working satisfactorily at JFK and at the worst is choking the airport at peak times does not have much appeal for me. It would also make the current EU civil aviation competition regulations inoperable. They are dependent on the priority allocation of half of new, surrendered or confiscated slots to new-comer airlines. I do not see how you could achieve a similar objective if you tried to restrict arrivals by a US style gate leasing system.

The problem at JFK is arguably the significant growth of Jet Blue and the increasing number of feeder flights operated by both American Airlines and Delta into their hubs. While the slot system tends to discourage the use of smaller commuter aircraft, the potentially fast turn round times of such aircraft potentially promotes their use where the only actual operational restriction is gate availability.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7697 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1954 times:

One of the problems the FAA is attempting to address is not actually a gate issue per say, they are also looking at spacing out the number of arrivals and departures within the hours, even if gates are available, there are only so much a/c that can land and take off at a time, open / closed gates are irrelevant.

User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1867 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):
Sorry. I am confused. I said that 'if you are a passenger on a non-BA flight that uses a T5 stand or gate you will not use T5 itself'. You say 'Other airlines operating from other terminals will not move their staff to T5 to meet arrivals/.departures.' Clearly it would be a waste of resources to send staff to T5 to meet or dispatch passengers that were being bussed straight to another terminal where the airline has resident staff. Indeed your statement confirms my own.

Sorry, you appear to be confusing the issue. Other airlines will not send staff to T5 (the T5 campus, not just T5 - the building) to meet arrivals from another terminal. Busses from T1-4 will not head over to T5 to meet aircraft.

You implied that they would, hence I asked for your source of information.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
So although BA will be the only operator operating out of T5 this does not mean you will not see the aircraft of other airlines at T5 gates or on T5 stands. But if you are a passenger on a non-BA flight that uses a T5 stand or gate you will not use T5 itself.

...is what you actually said. Thus, taken into context, it DOES indeed mean that you will NOT see the aircraft of other airlines at T5 gates or stands. I hope I've clarified your confusion!


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