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Airbus V Boeing Who Will Win The 2007 Sales Race  
User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 20570 times:

Well its the last day of the year and since Xmas Airbus has been very quiet, whilst Boeing racked up some confirmations and options. Is Airbus waiting to announce some orders today, or did Boeing pip them at the post.


Your opinions !!!

329 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2682 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20559 times:

Anyway, I think both manufacturers had a fantastic year in terms of orders. That's just great!

As Airbus has more LoI than Boeing, so I think they will win the race. Maybe Airbus will sell as much as 1700 a/c IMO, against 1400 for Boeing.



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20558 times:

I believe that Airbus will be announcing their order during the next two weeks. You know ... Europeans and their holydays ... all fun and no work. I haven't been working since December 23rd Big grin
At least that how it's been for severall years now.
They do have a huge bunch of orders to be firmed up, about 400++, but we never know when that will happen.
However I believe that Mr Leahy will tickle us all by saying something like: "It's gonna be a close race ..." and then he smacks in around 300++ orders for 2007.
But if he's utters no flashy comments during this week then Boeing will win.
I will place my bets on Airbus though.


User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20559 times:

When both are booking > 1000 orders in the past year, I don't think it really matters.


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineSparklehorse12 From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 908 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20507 times:

What a year it was - the A380 project became fully realised when SQ flew it into SYD!


Airlines Flown : QF,NW,AA, CX, AC, MH, SQ, DJ, NZ, TG, PG,US, FJ, J8, AN, DD, JQ
User currently offlineGorgos From Greece, joined Dec 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20391 times:

Each producer selling three full years of production slots in one year means a big succes for both, be it 3.2 years or 3.3 years. Let´s wait and see which vendor will see the largest number of cancellations the coming years. But then again, does it matter? Everybody is sold out untill 2014...

User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 900 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20339 times:

What are the latest figures? Can anyone post them? I know they were running relatively neck and neck.

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20307 times:

One side will say that they have the most orders, the other side will say they received the most order value.

In the end, both sides will claim victory.

I stopped caring years ago.


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20294 times:



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 6):
What are the latest figures? Can anyone post them?

There was a thread tracking 2007 orders:
2007 Orders: Part III (by Azhobo Nov 14 2007 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 900 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20281 times:



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 7):
One side will say that they have the most orders, the other side will say they received the most order value.

In the end, both sides will claim victory.

I stopped caring years ago.

While the difference between those categories does matter, it would nonetheless be interesting to see if one party finished ahead in both categories or if they split the difference. I'd be curious to see who is selling more wide-bodies vs narrow-bodies etc also.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20224 times:



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 9):

The order breakdowns are interesting, but with so many categories, it will end up that all sides will claim 'victory' in one way or another.


User currently offlineGorgos From Greece, joined Dec 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20182 times:

I would like to know which company is willing to take the risk to increase production after three such succesful years. Probably none, although Im inclined to think Airbus would be the most willing to do so.

User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20151 times:
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Quoting Gorgos (Reply 5):
Let´s wait and see which vendor will see the largest number of cancellations the coming years.

Should be a cancellation for some A319's . . . say 65 or so in the coming year. Skybus.  duck 


User currently offlineCaljn From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20040 times:



Quoting Gorgos (Reply 5):
Let´s wait and see which vendor will see the largest number of cancellations the coming years. But then again, does it matter?

 checkmark 

add to that inflated orders from carriers whose futures are dubious at best, or large orders with limited margin that will likely be cut back.
Can these really be counted?


User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19968 times:



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 7):
One side will say that they have the most orders, the other side will say they received the most order value.

In the end, both sides will claim victory.

Can someone who claims victory based solely on the number of orders be expected to have a consistent business strategy?  no 

It seems pretty foolish to have a margin-cutting orders race in a duopoly marketplace, doesn't it? More so if the key protagonist is not even able to match the orders by production without significant upfront effort and investment, which in turn takes margins further down (actually, our protagonist is already in the red) - exposing itself and the whole supply chain to the looming risk of a downturn/end of cycle/burst of the bubble.

Happy New Year  wave 


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19869 times:

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Thread starter):
Well its the last day of the year and since Xmas Airbus has been very quiet, whilst Boeing racked up some confirmations and options. Is Airbus waiting to announce some orders today, or did Boeing pip them at the post.

The order race is not closed tonight at 23.59 like you seem to be thinking, it is closed when both manufacturers announce their December sales and as such unveil their total sales for 2007. Boeing does so in a few days, Airbus traditionally does it somewhere in the second week of January as the holiday period in Europe lasts a full 2 weeks!

This means that untill then, you will just have to remain patient a bit more and -for the Boeing crowd- not uncork the champagne bottle right away like they did 2 years ago, since Airbus traditionally books a lot of pending or even unannounced orders in December.

Some orders which are known to have been signed in December, yet of which no official communication has been seen from Airbus:
BA 12 A380-800
China 110 A320
China 40 A330

[Edited 2007-12-31 06:40:19]

User currently offlineSh0rtybr0wn From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19784 times:



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 14):
More so if the key protagonist is not even able to match the orders by production without significant upfront effort and investment, which in turn takes margins further down (actually, our protagonist is already in the red) - exposing itself and the whole supply chain to the looming risk of a downturn/end of cycle/burst of the bubble.

Ummm, what? Explanation? Is this German humor, or is it suppose to be funny? I cant figure out which manufacturer you're talking about because now both have delays in major programs.

The delays might soften the "downturn" , but then again, many planes are bought by Mideast carriers who are clearing so much money from increasing oil demand that they probably wont feel any downturn; not enough to cancel orders.

If anything slows orders, its the fact that delivery dates are shrinking into the vanishing point. How far do you think airlines will order planes into the future... 2020, or is that too far to order for 2008?


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19702 times:

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 16):
Ummm, what? Explanation? Is this German humor, or is it suppose to be funny? I cant figure out which manufacturer you're talking about because now both have delays in major programs.

Don't worry - it's Rheinbote, so if it's something negative, then it's about Airbus.

Regarding the thread topic - I really don't think it's relevant, because whenever one company lacks in the category/categories used so far for determining who "won", a new category will suddenly be found that's much more important than whatever was considered important so far.

If it's not numbers, it's value...
... or the percentage of widebodies...
... or the percentage of supposed blue-chip-carriers...
... or the percentage of orders coming from legacies...
... or the percentage of orders coming from LCCs...
... or whatever else someone can dream up...

[Edited 2007-12-31 07:01:41]


Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 18093 times:

How about who's actually making more money? Both seem to be doing well. They both produce fine airplanes and divery dates have been ok (although I am a little partial to Boeing).

But seriously, who is actually ahead as far as $$$.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 18012 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 18):
But seriously, who is actually ahead as far as $$$.

At the moment, Boeing. The A380 and A400M delays are doing horrible things to Airbus' profit for last year, this year, and next.

Tom.


User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17970 times:



Quoting Chiad (Reply 2):
I believe that Airbus will be announcing their order during the next two weeks. You know ... Europeans and their holydays ... all fun and no work. I haven't been working since December 23rd 

I've been on leave since the 21st. Going back on the 2nd at 05:00. Not bad for an American.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17952 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 19):
At the moment, Boeing. The A380 and A400M delays are doing horrible things to Airbus' profit for last year, this year, and next.

Well there you go. I would much rather be at the helm of the company producing say 800 aircraft a year and STILL making more money than the guy producing 1100. Not saying that this is the case between these two companies, but status isn't everything. (seems to be the norm in the airline/aviation industry though  Yeah sure )



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17876 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 18):
Both seem to be doing well.

..actually not....at least in terms of making money..

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 18):
They both produce fine airplanes

 checkmark  checkmark 


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"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17816 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
..actually not....at least in terms of making money..

Ok, so do you agree with the other guy that Boeing is doing better than Airbus in those terms.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17788 times:

Last year, Boeing won the $$$ race by a nice margin, but still didn't stop Airbus from claiming victory over the number ordered race.

25 Reggaebird : Wrong! Boeing won the numbers and value races last year (2006).
26 CAETravlr : I believe that both companies are going to put the best spin possible on which one sells most, makes the most money, etc... I think that some of us ju
27 T773ER : I think you ment to say 2005, as last year(2006) Boeing won the order race. In 2005 Airbus beat Boeing by number of orders, but not by value.
28 StoutAirLines : Isn't your favored manufacturer set to win even the categories you have listed? I believe that Boeing was bested in each of them... Though, didn't 2
29 David_itl : Err....those A350 orders were valid to be counted in 2005 as they were ordered then. Now the only "new" ones being added to are those over and above
30 Jsewoggie : Hi Everyone, I just joined and thought I would try posting a reply. In looking over the order numbers for both airlines, Boeing has a slight lead (97
31 Post contains images Legoguy : Regardless which manufacturer wins, both have had a sensational year order wise with Boeing having a tremendous last quarter which seems to have surpr
32 Post contains links StoutAirLines : Absolutely, the Chinese did make comments about the A320 order and thanks for asking. It clearly wasn't just "some people here wetting their pants" a
33 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..in those terms and profit margins...
34 Slz396 : My friend, it is perfectly normal for the AIRLINES not to have paid any deposits on this mega bulk order, as it wasn't allotted yet, so no airlines w
35 Leskova : I know that you won't believe it - though that really doesn't matter to me - but I honestly don't care who wins the orders race. As a passenger, I cl
36 MrComet : I think we all know how this works. Boeing announces its sold airplanes. All are firm orders where they have the money. Then Airbus tops that number u
37 StoutAirLines : Actually, no, there was nothing at all "perfectly normal for the AIRLINES" not to have paid any deposit as they were the actual customers, not the Ch
38 Moo : I beg to differ - Airbus can claim an order whether or not a deposit is paid, so long as a firm order is placed, and in this case it was, by CASGC. A
39 Atnight : Dude, stop living in the past...is 2008.... whatever you say may make sense to you, but that doesn't mean your view is cannon.... You will not win an
40 Stitch : However, the Chinese government, through the Civil Aviation Administration of China and the China Aviation Supplies Import and Export Group, approves
41 Post contains images Slz396 : Indeed and may I point out that EADS are officially on the record for having booked the order as firm in their annual report of 2005, so their MUST b
42 Moo : Yes, that is why *net* orders are counted as the final tally, not *gross* orders. An A350 conversion has two parts which are booked in this year - th
43 Stitch : I'm also pleased at how balanced the order books are this year. Instead of Airbus being narrowbody-heavy and Boeing widebody-heavy, both companies ha
44 Post contains links and images Slz396 : Correct: In the old days, things were pretty simple in the People's Republic of China: you had the Ministry of Aviation (C.A.A.C), which was both the
45 CygnusChicago : The CAAC paid the deposits, per EADS year end financial statements. The only mechanism EADS has for accounting for this cashflow, is to book the orde
46 Azhobo : I think Boeing will win this years race by a narrow margin. Unless the china order is firmed for aibus which i dont think it will be IMO. I feel more
47 Pnwtraveler : If the economic slowdown for our neighbours south of the border starts to spread air travel will slow. If that is the case there will be a lot of park
48 Stitch : Folks also need to understand that Boeing and Airbus choose to LIST orders differently - and I capitalize and highlight that word because it is import
49 Post contains images Rheinbote : No idea how delays got in your way while figuring out what I meant, because I made no mention of delays. Really? I am trained to identify and solve p
50 Post contains images Leskova : Hmm... same here - so I guess either our definition of "problems" differs, or we simply have different angles of looking at problems... Good for you.
51 StoutAirLines : You can beg all you want, Moo. However, the fact remains that even the CASGC did not regard their sales agreement with Airbus to be a firm order at t
52 Abba : What is important, though, is that each of the two continues to do things the same way year after year as what is counted one year will not be counte
53 David_itl : So are you suggesting that when they audit EADS, EADS tells them, "By the way, forget about looking at the Airbus Division".
54 Moo : Again, I beg to differ - you have yet to show any evidence for that. So far you have only shown that they refused to comment, and yet CASGC have plac
55 Threepoint : Actually, the 'sales history for 2007' is in the future. We don't have the final figures as of today (Jan 1).
56 Gsosbee : Both can claim a successful year. With minimal orders again from the US airlines, AB should be expected to win more orders, but at the 2007 level of o
57 Mptpa : It really does not matter; both mfrs did well this year, more than they thought they would in the beginning of 2007. Airbus has some bottom line effec
58 Post contains links StoutAirLines : For a General Terms Agreements (GTA), by definition, there are only terms for agreement on deposits and other provisions, no hard contracting. "Only
59 Ikramerica : Airbus and Boeing routinely have walk away provisions in contracts if certain conditions are not met by the airframe makers. So Airbus's explanation
60 Atnight : I'm sorry, but you're trying to go out on a technicality.... how can the 2005 order race be the same "past" as the 2007 present situation that is yet
61 Zvezda : Both the Airbus and Boeing methodologies for booking Chinese orders are valid. However, comparing the orders using mixed methodologies is not valid. A
62 Reggaebird : Am I the only one who finds this discussion boring and irrelevant as there is no question how this will turn out. It was far more interesting in 2005
63 Post contains images Stitch : It's like hockey. We show up for the fights.
64 StoutAirLines : I did actually take the time to look at the categories you listed. In terms of the percentage of total market order intake for a given year, it is qu
65 Post contains images Azhobo : I am not sure why you think Boeing might have it wrapped up by this year? Airbus has a lot of LOIs and the possibililty for another 2005 china surpri
66 Post contains images Stitch : Reggaebird's comments were that Airbus would win, so I am not sure why you believe they said Boeing would. However, if they had said that, they might
67 CAETravlr : Hobo, I think you should possibly re-read the post that you were quoting. Notice the word "DIDNT" in the sentence below. I think he was also saying t
68 M27 : Stitch and CAE,I think you might want to read Azhobo's post #46 and notice the smiley in #62.
69 M27 : Correction, that should be (smiley in Post # 65)
70 CAETravlr : Why? It looked like he misread Reggaebird's post and we were just trying to be helpful. Well, at least speaking for myself, that was the case. And wh
71 Post contains images CAETravlr : I still don't think that changed the meaning of his post. I think it was simply a misunderstanding of another post, no biggie. I actually agree with
72 Post contains images Azhobo : Purely sarcasm in my post, maybe bad placement of the smiley or wrong type of smiley or poor use of sarcasm on my part. It would appear that too many
73 Post contains images CAETravlr : In that case, I misread your post. My bad. I really thought I was being helpful. I was one of the ones earlier in the year that figured Boeing would
74 Stitch : For me, that view is/was driven by the sheer number of MoUs and LoIs Airbus had, which was something close to half of their firm total as of October/
75 Azhobo : I would like to know how long these MOU/LOI have been unfirmed. Seems unreal to carry that many for so long. And to firm most up the last week of the
76 Post contains links YVRLTN : Justplanes include a firm order in December from CI for 14x A359. Hadnt seen this order mentioned anywhere on a.net... They also mention 1755 total o
77 Post contains links DEVILFISH : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-1400-mark-surges-past-airbus.html Quote: "Airbus has yet to announce finalizing a similar letter of intent wi
78 Post contains images Astuteman : Whether it ends up as 1400/1300 and 2700 total, or 1400/1500 and 2900 total, all that really matters is that this is, as you say quite "incredulous"
79 EvilForce : Exactly! At the end of the day it really doesn't matter if Boeing sells 1400 vs. Airbus 1450 or the other way around when we are talking about aircra
80 Post contains images Iwok : Spot on indeed!!! I remember a few years ago watching the orders update on the Boeing website update very slowly indeed with some months only a handf
81 Zvezda : Huh??? Who is incredulous? I'm sticking with my prediction of Airbus 1600, Boeing 1400.
82 Post contains links and images Scbriml : Why would Airbus booking the announced Chinese order be a surprise? The surprise would be if they didn't book it! Airbus often firms pending orders w
83 Post contains images Scbriml : Over the last few years Airbus has carried significantly more pending orders than Boeing. They seem to take longer to firm up those pending orders as
84 Slz396 : It is booked. Reminds me of that famous description of football (aka 'soccer' to our US visitors) by Gary Lineker: "22 men chase a ball for 90 minute
85 Danny : Airbus will win no doubt. With 800 pending at the end of November they would need a month of vacation to loose it. Plus they have some orders they wer
86 Abba : True. However, as far as Boeing's and Airbus' count their orders consistently year after year the differences will be balanced to some extent. Relati
87 Post contains images Zvezda : Spread over a long enough time, if there were no upward trend in orders, it would make no difference whether Chinese orders are booked liberally or c
88 AvObserver : I agree; order value AND profitability is more important than higher numerical order totals. Whoever wins the order value total, coupled with order p
89 Post contains images SEPilot : I take it you're the guy who went to see a fight but a hockey game broke out?
90 Post contains images Baroque : But what about pom-pons?
91 Post contains images Rheinbote : Pom-pons? Mais non!
92 Rheinbote : 1. Generally suppliers and airports are the winners, i.e. far more profitable than airframe manufacturers, let alone airlines. 2. Analysts don't give
93 Slz396 : My friend, don't take it serious! 'Europeans' just replaces 'Germans' in the famous quote from Gary Lineker on the way football works! It basically m
94 CygnusChicago : I disagree, you can compare using mixed methodologies, you just have to do it on a multi-year basis. Let's take the Chinese 2005 order. If Airbus had
95 Post contains images CygnusChicago : I'm a little confused by your question. You claim you don't know how long they have been "unfirm", and then you comment that they are carried for too
96 Sjoerd : Try to think outside of the analyst/stock market world. In my view (and in the view of EU politicians subsidizing Airbus) the Europeans win because a
97 StoutAirLines : Would you ever entertain the notion that I might know a bit more, and in very exacting detail, about certain past events and other aviation-related t
98 Stitch : It is neither that simple nor that black and white, Sjoerd.
99 Sjoerd : I agree it never is.
100 Post contains images Flysherwood : WOW!!! Profitability is actually being brought up in the A vs B discussion. Imagine that, profitability being used as a measuring stick in comparing
101 CygnusChicago : Profitability is a rather useless yard stick. I can generate huge profits this year, and run my company into the ground. If you really, really want t
102 Post contains images Flysherwood : Really?!?! Without profitability, what is the value of purchasing a share in a company? The only place in the commercial aircraft industry where prof
103 Post contains images Flysherwood : It is my belief that the biggest winners in all of this are the engine manufacturers!
104 Threepoint : I think we must temper our enthusiasm by remembering that sooner or later, we'll face a slowdown, recession, crash or whatever we want to term it. Mu
105 Post contains images Stitch : No doubt!
106 Post contains links Tak : According to this flightglobal article, boeing will release final numbers tomorrow morning: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-1400-mark-surges-p
107 Scbriml : Define "many".
108 Flysherwood : It will be very painful for both but much more so for the one that spent $ 20 Billion over 7 years time to develop an aircraft that has yet to sell 2
109 CygnusChicago : As a small stockholder, yea, you want some profits. As a purchaser of a large chunk of, or the entire company, a number of reasons come to mind: Futu
110 Post contains images Stitch : Plus a larger or longer-term investor would look at more then one year's worth of profitability. Airbus had a rough 2007, but then Boeing had a rough
111 Flysherwood : Tell that to Warren Buffet or KKR or any of the other big time equity investors. And who said I was only looking at profitability over a years time.
112 Stitch : Well EADS has been delivering profits since incorporation in 2000 and Airbus was delivering it prior to that, so what's the issue again?
113 NAV20 : Don't understand that view, CygnusChicago? You can value any quoted company any time simply by multiplying the share price by the number of shares is
114 Caryjack : A Boeing news release of Jan. 02 stated that an order from DAE would be added to the orders and deliveries page on Jan. 3. That page has not been upd
115 Threepoint : That's of course impossible to quantify precisely. Neither of us have a crystal ball that works very well, so let's simply say it's fair to assume th
116 2175301 : I actually think that the vast majority of those 6000 plans will be built. While the industry is cyclical, the price of fuel has also skyrocketed and
117 Aussie747 : Nett orders for Boeing just in....... 1413 for 2007
118 Threepoint : Eventually, sure. But there will almost certainly be at least one significant market downturn in the interim. That's a key variable, for sure. It may
119 Starrion : The final tally for Boeing is an astonishing 1413 frames sold. That is a great number for Boeing and it's stockholders. The China order will allow Air
120 Post contains images Stitch : Depends if they were able to book it in 2007. They and their customers have been very quiet. I realize this doesn't prove they have not done anything
121 Azhobo : Total aircraft net orders for the year - Dec 31, 2007: Single-aisle: B737=846 , A320=705 Twin-aisle: B767=36, A330=173 Next-gen twin: B787=369, A350=2
122 Post contains images CygnusChicago : Again, value is what someone is prepared to pay for it. Investment banks and hedge funds can drive share price up. That doesn't mean that the market
123 CygnusChicago : Wow! That is freaking astonishing - 200 firm orders in under two weeks. Love it. Congrats to the new Randy - you rock!
124 Post contains images Astuteman : Fortunately not relevant to the ongoing conversation... Bet they'd take 2007 over 2006 any day! CC's right IMO. Forget profitability over one year (n
125 Scbriml : I wasn't asking for precision, but "many" suggests a significant proportion - what's your guess?[Edited 2008-01-04 00:34:08]
126 Scbriml : Other (normally reliable) members have already said the China order was firmed in December. I believe Leahy said he expected it to be firmed in Decem
127 Post contains images NAV20 : Cheers, Astuteman! I was actually taking it over two years - nominal profit only in 2006, and (as they've already announced) breakeven at best (or po
128 Post contains images Astuteman : No worries, mate.. I did say "started" Regards
129 NAV20 : We're probably not disagreeing seriously, CygnusChicago. Except that the BAE deal was not concerned with the value of EADS as a whole, but only to th
130 Rheinbote : Imagine you have a number of plants worth 3bn in assets. Imagine you need to invest 5bn to bring them up to new production principles, but you don't
131 Post contains images Glideslope : Not a good way to go about building trust among neighbors, IMO.
132 NAV20 : Agree, Rheinbote - on the basis of what we know so far. And if you add in the fact that the investment funds provided by the 'new owners' (the German
133 SEPilot : The situation of Airbus vs. Boeing going forward certainly looks much better (meaning close to parity) than it did a year ago. Airbus has succeeded in
134 Stitch : I hope either they didn't do it, or they don't need it to beat Boeing. I say this not because I don't want Airbus to win (I could give a rat's bum ei
135 Post contains images Scbriml : The way Boeing finished the year, probably both! I read that. I was curious how a Boeing exec claims to know more about the status of an Airbus order
136 Ikramerica : Because he knows how China works, and is setting the stage before the Airbus announcement rather than having to answer afterward like with the 2005 a
137 Moo : I think consistency is the key here - both prior (2005 and 2006) large orders were booked to CASGC (and I don't remember any fuss being made over las
138 LH506 : What happened to Gols order. I thought that Gol converted 34 options and ordered 40 737s in addition.
139 Scbriml : Except Airbus has been very consistent how it books Chinese orders. When has Airbus "deferred" booking a Chinese order till the following year? Unfor
140 Threepoint : I dunno - did you read the bit about crystal balls? Are you trying to pin me to a speculative figure, and if so, to what end? Many, several, quite a
141 Post contains images Flysherwood : Ahhh.... but it is! What is Airbus if not a quasi-government funded jobs program! Otherwise, why would the shareholders such as France and Germany ha
142 Stitch : I'd just prefer we dispense with the competition part. This forum would be a much quieter and civil place if we did.
143 Post contains images Flysherwood : In all of their cases, whether you want to believe it or not, it all boils down to the profitability of the company or at least the future potential
144 Post contains images Oldeuropean : Which government-controlled banks you are talking about? Axel
145 Leskova : KfW - though state-controlled may be going just a bit too far...
146 Oldeuropean : Yes this is AFAIK the only state-controlled bank in Germany. Axel
147 Leskova : And they are the ones who are financing the sale of Airbus' plants to the German company, so I'd say that's what NAV20 was referring to...
148 Abba : If you sell the 3bn assets for 1bn your loss is 2bn...
149 Threepoint : I believe he was referring to the loss of the physical asset (3bn), as opposed to liquid assets (the 1bn cash).
150 Zvezda : If no one is willing to pay more than 1B for the assets and the owner is willing to sell them for 1B, then the assets are worth 1B, not 3B. That they
151 BestWestern : Looks like Airbus are going to regain the sales race title this year. Rati (www.rati.com), the excellent subscription service for aviation professiona
152 Post contains links NAV20 : Given that both firms are swimming in orders this year, the question of 'who wins' is entirely a PR/image promotion matter; more about impressing shar
153 Ruscoe : My take on the future is that Boeing realise the duopoly situation, with a competitor which is structured the way Airbus is, will always result in low
154 Post contains links NAV20 : Speaking of Boeing's expert PR approach, right on cue, here's an example of Airbus' incredibly BAD technique:- "EADS unit Airbus said its total orders
155 Post contains links StoutAirLines : Mr. Carson wouldn't know more than Airbus, but he also wouldn't need to. Remember, Boeing surely participated in, and has been kept abreast of, detai
156 Ruscoe : Ultimately whatever the outcome, it is the bottom line that matters and they have lost this year and will continue to do so into the forseeable futur
157 EvilForce : That's the crux. The future is not foreseeable at all, so your observation is valid as of today, and today only. A million things could go right or w
158 Post contains images CygnusChicago : Precisely my point - the true valuation is again only what someone is willing to pay for an asset, or more precisely I guess, the price at which a tr
159 CygnusChicago : There's no bad PR in this. It's just the classical "no comment" statement. Accusing EADS of cooking the books because they refuse to divulge inside i
160 CygnusChicago : Profit is not what keeps you in business. Net positive free cash flow does.
161 NAV20 : With respect, CC, it's anything but. A 'no comment' statement would heve been just that - "We have no comment at this stage. We will publish our 2007
162 Zvezda : Think back to two years ago. Airbus made a similar announcement and then, eventually, produced the orders. That leads me to consider a third interpre
163 FRNT787 : I believe the chinese order was part of a state deal on Sarkozy's trip, similar to when Bush visits China, we get an order for 150 737s or 60 787s or
164 Astuteman : A successful, and "fundamentally" profitable airliner manufacturer? Ah well. Whatever floats your boat. Regards
165 Iwok : Either way you count things, Boeing clearly won both the orders for '05 & '06 once you take into account the numerous cancellations and cooked bookin
166 Post contains images Scbriml : No, that's the inevitable NAV20 interpretation. Why would Airbus make a public announcement that they were going to "cook the books"? They're not. Yo
167 Scbriml : Well there's your first problem - you're assuming this order was a competitive one. The PR for this order suggests it was tied in to the A320 FAL and
168 Scbriml : I don't think they announce financials, but they certainly have a big dog & pony show of announcing deliveries and orders, as well as a review of the
169 Post contains images Rheinbote : Remember that in a combinate, political figures generated at some level need to be agreed horizontally one level above and then cascaded to the polit
170 BestWestern : Oh God, its back to 2005 again, and the "cooked the books" bullshit. We had this back in 2005 also - The US takes how many days off over christmas? 1
171 Slz396 : In fact Boeing is overflowing with frustration, because: -either Boeing have 'won', yet they can not capitalize on it now that they should do (i.e. a
172 Art : Weren't they right on one of those? Chuck Yeager, Bell X-1, 1947?
173 Slz396 : Not when it comes to the jet engine, nor the jet airliner... even the sound barrier was broken (accidentally) before and the first man into space had
174 NAV20 : Yeager was the first to break it in level flight, Art - and all honour to him. But aeroplanes like the De Havilland Vampire and the first delta-wing,
175 Zvezda : If that's what's most important to you, you must be having a good time here. There are plenty of twisted knickers among the fans of both manufacturer
176 Post contains images BestWestern : In every race there is a winner and a loser. I actually disagree, the only knickers twisted are from the arrogant boeing cheerleader side - (those th
177 Rheinbote : Precisely, that was the first officially recorded flight breaking Mach1 in level flight.
178 Jsewoggie : I think this years order race will be very close, Airbus has to record 319 net orders in December in order to overtake Boeing's 2007 orders. As accoun
179 Post contains links Moo : Airbus reports their monthly orders after their monthly Board of Directors meeting, as that is where it is first reported. And that happens a little
180 Osiris30 : Yes, because certain Airbus cheerleaders on this thread have *clearly* demonstrated their knickers are untwisted: 'Nuff said me thinks.. I would make
181 EvilForce : You'd think from the outrage some express here that Airbus cares about what Anet thinks. I assure you it doesn't and shouldn't. The people it needs to
182 StoutAirLines : So then this was a GTA. My mistake. Thanks for the clarification. And had this deal been awarded to Boeing instead, it definitely could not have been
183 Jsewoggie : I am sorry to disagree with you but Airbus during the year NEVER places cancellations on their O&D report that I could find. I am not spinning anythi
184 Stitch : While Airbus does not make it as easy to find as Boeing, Airbus does offer it the information. Yes, it's nice that you can just look at a Boeing web p
185 Post contains images Ikramerica : When you are in theory a public company and you sell widgets, but you make it difficult to discern how many widgets were ordered, canceled, etc. at a
186 Post contains links Jsewoggie : I am sorry to disagree with you they do hide it, I find NOWHERE in Airbus' spreadsheet where they tell you the cancellation number. The only way you
187 Jsewoggie : THANK-YOU!! I have an accounting background and have done orders reports, they are not rocket science. Investors or reporters should not have to do c
188 Post contains images Azhobo : I thought Airbus no longer cared about the orders title, but were more interested in making better margins? What will be interesting though is... Wil
189 Moo : Yes they do, they remove them from the 'orders' columns on each specific area tab and also on the 'World Wide' tab. They are booked as a cancellation
190 Moo : They could just check the press release, where both gorss and net end of year figures have been reported for the past several years.... Lets be truth
191 Post contains links and images Stitch : Looks like Airbus doesn't make it as hard as I thought. The second return on a Google Search for "Airbus 2006 Orders" returned http://www.airbus.com/
192 Post contains images FRNT787 : I dont think Carson's statement was one of arrogance, but simply one of answering a question about his thoughts on the order. I would imagine he has
193 Post contains links Jsewoggie : I am sorry you are wrong. They just make the number disappear. They make it difficult for the average person to find the NET order number at any give
194 Moo : So they deduct from the outstanding orders what has been cancelled - what are you having issues with here? Again, you have to do some math - poor poo
195 Post contains images Scbriml : You just won't let this go will you? From an accounting perspective, Airbus's gross and net sales numbers are irrelevant. From an accounting perspect
196 AirNZ : Why should Airbus be concerned about the 'average' person? Indeed, why would the same 'average' person even be interested? I have to agree with Moo i
197 Jsewoggie : When one has to get out pen and paper to calculate a NET number, this is NOT being open, they just make the number disappear from the ending backlog
198 Post contains images Moo : Ahh, so despite them actually reporting the number you wish in their end of year releases, they don't twist themselves to your every whim, so that ma
199 Jsewoggie : Because the average person can be an investor. The point is not about personal preferences, it is about open reporting. You evidently have never gone
200 Jsewoggie : How shallow. I have no problem with Airbus, they make very good aircraft. Some of their business decisions I may not understand, but that in no way m
201 CygnusChicago : Then what about Embraer and Bombardier? Why aren't you having a go at them for not being open - there numbers are nowhere easy to be found. Frankly,
202 Wolbo : I expect Airbus will do the same for 2007, which will give us the net amount after cancellations. It's good to see Airbus making this information ava
203 EvilForce : Instead of spending hours and hours rehashing the same point with people on the internet that can't answer your question with any certainty, have you
204 Post contains images CygnusChicago : Most people (and by this I mean everyone who is not "special needs") do not require pen and paper to do the utterly simple subtraction and addition a
205 Post contains images CygnusChicago : If the "average person" cannot do basic addition and subtraction, then that "average person" should probably not be buying EADS shares (or any other
206 Moo : I found everything I needed in this topic in less than 3 minutes on the Airbus website - that includes the gross and net figures for the past 4 years
207 Post contains images CygnusChicago : Completely agree with you Wolbo. They should also have at least three popups that loudly flash the cancellation figure in Red, complete with a sexy f
208 Moo : Don't forget the double page colour adverts that need to be printed in every major newspaper on the planet, 7 days a week, for the entire year - just
209 Post contains images Wolbo : Glad to see you got the message. Now if only Airbus would listen....
210 Azhobo : I think you all are missing Jswoggies point. Why not be MORE transparent about it. If it is important enough to put out a freakin spreadsheet every mo
211 Moo : I'm not missing his point at all, I just don't attribute any weight to it - they have no need to be more transparent above and beyond what they do at
212 Post contains images Jsewoggie : Thank-You!! That was the only point I was trying to make. I would prefer Boeing put their historical data on a single spreadsheet, it would make it e
213 EvilForce : And we have finally gotten to the crux of why this upsets some. Because various reporters are not reporting orders the way you want them to, it must
214 Moo : They are already more or less halfway there with the following - Vietnam - 10 A350XWB, 20 A320 Tiger - 50 A320 Finnair - 1 A330 Saudia - 22 A320 Afri
215 Post contains links T773ER : I don't understand how they can get away with this, considering the difference between net and gross can be quite large. When dealing with the sales
216 Post contains images Jsewoggie : Pretty poor analogy If Airbus reported NET numbers through out the year, reporters would post it, but they only provide gross number until the year e
217 StoutAirLines : Do final numbers get adjusted? I have not seen corresponding decrement to original A350 order tallies, as replacements are being made. (I admit that
218 Azhobo : EXACTLY. Thanks for making that clear! HOBO
219 T773ER : Like jsewoggie stated, pretty poor analogy. If anything this proves the point that Airbus hides it's net orders, like many have been saying. If the n
220 Legoguy : So why do articles in question not compare Boeing's gross order total with Airbus's gross order total. If that's the problem here, the problem is with
221 T773ER : Because Airbus doesn't make it's net orders easily accessible, and the lazy press uses the gross orders instead of calculating the net orders.
222 Legoguy : Surely Boeing makes their gross order's easily available thus making it easier for articles to compare the gross orders rather than net orders? Most
223 Post contains images Jsewoggie : I was going through Airbus' press releases earlier and only found the Vietnam, Tiger and Finnair. Where did you find the others? Also, why did Airbus
224 Jsewoggie : The press seems to take what they are fed and don't do any homework. The reason it is more important this year is because Airbus has 109 cancellation
225 EvilForce : Then blame Boeing for not posting the same way Airbus does. Looks to me that perhaps Airbus has found a free PR advantage then. Why would you volunta
226 Jsewoggie : Boeing gives both numbers gross and net, Airbus only releases gross numbers during the year and gross & net numbers at year end. The press only repor
227 Post contains links Azhobo : Here is an article on the air asia order. Not an airbus release though.. http://pressmediawire.com/article.cfm?articleID=4070
228 Scbriml : All the information you want is there, the net number can be easily calculated. Just because you don't like the way Airbus presents the information d
229 Jsewoggie : " target=_blank>http://pressmediawire.com/article.cf...=4070 Thank-You!! I wonder why this is not in Airbus' press releases?
230 StoutAirLines : Contract cancelations due to non-performance by a manufacturer or supplier don't occur without financial consequences that can be significant. Penalt
231 Jsewoggie : This is correct, and if this occurs prior to year end financial statements being released at it is a material number, the auditors would require it b
232 Post contains images Astuteman : So lazy press are the fault of Airbus? Analogous to A-net itself, perhaps? So why don't you fire off at them for not taking the odd second to do thei
233 Post contains images BestWestern : Isn't it fun watching people try, yet again to kick airbus over nothing,because it seems that airbus will win the orders race. Its Just like 2005 all
234 Post contains links Moo : Vietnam - http://www.eads.net/1024/en/pressdb/...ssdb/20071221_airbus_vietnman.html Tiger - http://www.eads.net/1024/en/pressdb/pressdb/20071218_airb
235 Scbriml : Who's getting away, and what exactly are they getting away with? As has been explained to you several times, if you really want to know the Airbus ne
236 Post contains images Scbriml : You mean Airbus didn't "cheat" and book them all before they were really firm? Whatever next - a cancelled order tab on their spreadsheet?
237 Baroque : R&D I understand, Google suggests Rhythm and Blues and a Canadian beer for R&B - any enlightenment on that matter? PS I can work out Airbus net order
238 Post contains images Art : Aircraft orders are an indication of how many will be made in the future. Whether Airbus books 100 or 500 in December 2007 is of little consequence.
239 Post contains images Jsewoggie : Who said anything about Airbus cheating, this was NEVER mentioned or IMPLIED. Moo was simply answering a question I had about the Tiger order, Airbus
240 NoWorries : In my opinion, the "surprise" is that the order tally is this close. A few months ago, I think the consensus (at least on a.net) was that Airbus would
241 Stitch : That is true. Airbus was looking to take Boeing by upwards of 500 frames. If it ends up only being more like 50 - or even 5... Then again, if Airbus
242 Post contains links Threepoint : From the article referred to us by AZhobo ( http://pressmediawire.com/article.cfm?articleID=4070 ), the above statement may open a new can of worms o
243 Azhobo : Not sure how one could slant the numbers to favor Airbus on this comparison. But I am sure there are caveats that could be made to make such a case.
244 Threepoint : That's what I thought. The A32x family is very very successful, but Boeing's been selling little 737 hotcakes for 40+ years now.
245 T773ER : The press, getting away with comparing Boeing's net to Airbuses gross orders. Don't you see something wrong with that?
246 Legoguy : Not to take this thread off track but there are many people on A.net who see the A330 and A340 as completely different aircraft due to the extra engi
247 Post contains images Stitch : There are lies, damn lies, statistics, and Airbus and Boeing comparisons.
248 Post contains images Baroque : yep, and to add to the list (still I think in order) there are statements in the press and a.net threads.
249 Post contains images Scbriml : Both manufacturers can make valid claims here. The A320 family has outsold both classic and NG 737s when those two generations are counted separately
250 Post contains images Jsewoggie : In looking over the backlog and orders report for the A350XWB, there is a difference of 30 planes, 20 A350-800 and 10 A350-900. A350-800 10 Air Europa
251 TUIflyer : Is it me or does it just feel that Airbus has lost it's momentum? I suppose it's understandable but both manufacturers have had good years in terms of
252 Post contains images Jsewoggie : Just like some at Airbus like to count the A330/340 when doing comparisons, you need to compare apples with apples and within the same time frame. Bu
253 SEPilot : I believe that is true. But I also believe that if you take the time since the 737NG was offered the 737 has sold a few more frames than the A320. No
254 Post contains images Scbriml : Lost its momentum? They've just had a record year, with more widebody sales than ever before. Airbus has over 3,000 sales in the last three years (wi
255 TUIflyer : Probably so, Boeing just seems to have had a better year with the 787. TUIflyer
256 Jsewoggie : I would have to disagree with you. Airbus has greatly picked up the momentum, but it happened after they finally got the A350XWB that the airlines wa
257 Stitch : They look pretty darn strong to me.
258 Post contains links StoutAirLines : Let me extend sincerest congratulations to you, BestWestern. You have much to be proud of as I'm certain your efforts helped in the buoyant success o
259 Jsewoggie : If there is a turn down in these areas, Airbus & Boeing will have a problem, but I think Airbus will be hurt a little more because a greater percenta
260 OldAeroGuy : Don't be too sure. The Airbus spread sheet still shows 5 A310 orders that will never be delivered since the production line is closed.
261 Jsewoggie : I am surprised an auditor would allow this to remain on the books as an order, did the line close down in 2007. They may remove it for year end repor
262 Mham001 : I don't know. With the backlog as great as it is, I expect even with a plethora of cancellations, they will still have enough to keep busy through a
263 Jsewoggie : If Emirates and Qatar have a downturn, this would have a dramatic affect on Airbus, Emirates has 33% of the A380 orders and Qatar & Emirates have 52%
264 Post contains images Baroque : JL is probably making another New Years resolution as I write - "Must lose more this type of "momentum" in 2008". All the while grinning like a deep
265 OldAeroGuy : Well, the last A300 was produced this year but it's been several years since an A310 was built. We'll see what happens when Airbus closes the books o
266 Scbriml : When did Airbus do this, do you have a source? I don't think you'll find any such thing happened. As the old A350 customers have converted their orde
267 Scbriml : Yes, the A300/A310 line was officially closed in 2007. What can an auditor do if Airbus is holding a valid contract, with deposits paid? Until the ai
268 Moo : Monthly board meetings are not infact a corporate governance requirement, so its no surprise they don't get reported. They are infact an internal com
269 Moo : The Pegasus order was placed in December 2006, and the rest of those that you highlight are as of yet unconverted original A350 orders.
270 Moo : This is correct - the order still constitutes both an asset and a liability as there is a deposit involved - Airbus cannot simply remove the order fr
271 Jsewoggie : I am sorry you are both wrong, their is NO acceptable accounting practice that allows orders to be listed on an orders report for a productt that doe
272 Zvezda : That statement might have had some resonance a year ago, but Airbus have only gained in momentum during 2007. Airbus finally managed to design an A35
273 Post contains images EvilForce : Says who? Link?
274 Moo : Well, at this point I start having serious doubts about your claims of 25 years of accountancy experience and application of that experience in this
275 CygnusChicago : Actually, you are incorrect. The A310 orders are a liability (as were the A350 orders). If Airbus doesn't build and deliver the A310 and A350s as pro
276 Danny : Incorrect. The liability that a manufacturer recognizes relate to the deposits and progress payments that they took from the customer. Those amounts
277 Jsewoggie : There is a difference between a sales backlog report and the balance sheet which show assets & liabilities. The A310 & old A350 deposits are on the b
278 Post contains images Astuteman : I beg your pardon? Speak for yourself, if you want to, but I can assure you that I, as an Airbus fan, am not embarrassed about the fact one tiny bit
279 Stitch : When did Boeing stop taking orders for the 747-400 family? The last order placed was 17-Jul-2006 for the 747-400ERF, but was that the cut-off? Becaus
280 Jsewoggie : You have nothing to be embarrassed about. Airbus is a worthy competitor to Boeing. Airbus had some problems with bad business decisions, but they are
281 Jsewoggie : I believe production stopped for the 747-400 passenger version on March 16, 2007. They still have some 747-400F to produce. They had to remove the 4
282 Stitch : Those are the four PA birds which were converted to 777-300ERs.
283 Zvezda : Perhaps I was unclear. If so, please accept my apologies. It's not anything Airbus do that make me embarrassed to be an Airbus fan on this site. It i
284 Moo : You are not, however, falsely reporting assets and liabilities - and that, my friend, is the bottom line. The original A350 order contracts represent
285 Post contains images Baroque : Airbus are definitely not a perfect organization and I would be surprised if you can find anyone who thinks it is or even posts as if it is. I don't
286 Moo : When the criticism is utterly stupid, being rabid just happens to be unintended consequence of ensuring that not just the criticism survives the publ
287 Post contains links StoutAirLines : No, I admit that I don't have a source. I made a calculated assumption. Within my area of expertise in the aerospace sector, nonperformance breaks an
288 Jsewoggie : I think you may be be misunderstanding me. The sales order & backlog report numbers are not on the balance sheet financial statement. They are two to
289 Moo : Potayto and Potahto, to be honest. One way of doing it that is totally different to another way of doing it.
290 Danny : " target=_blank>http://www.sec.gov/rules/concept/34-...0.htm SEC just accepted IFRS as allowable for public listings in US. The next step is an optio
291 CygnusChicago : Um, isn't that what I said? Or are you nitpicking because I used the word "penalties"?
292 CygnusChicago : Ah well, we see this every week. The fanboys come out bashing Boeing/Airbus, and then suddenly raise the straw man of "supporters not being able to a
293 Jsewoggie : Both companies are going to break their sales order records and my guess is they will hold for quite a few years. The combined total should be over 2
294 TUIflyer : I think when you look at the two companies on a sales basis I think it would be fair to say that Airbus has not lost its momemntum, I just feel that B
295 SEPilot : I think most of us felt (I know I did) the same way this time a year ago, and look what happened!
296 Post contains images Danny : That is very important difference not nitpicking. Provision for contractual penalties is completely different story that I am sure Airbus is familiar
297 Jsewoggie : Danny, you are correct when it comes to the penalty liabilities. The deposits are recorded as "customer deposits" as a liability and if you record a
298 Post contains links NAV20 : Correct IMO - probably limited to the return of deposits with interest, plus minimal compensation for administrative expenses. Any financial losses w
299 StoutAirLines : Well, I did not intend to suggest that -- I could have worded what I said a bit better. Apologies. Yes, possibly, by even late 2009, much of this har
300 Baroque : What is "normalized" in this context? Mostly, normalized in International relations means that there has been a bust up and relations are now returni
301 EvilForce : You've illustrated a perfect point. The stock market, and people like me, are much more interested in how the company is doing TODAY! Not 7 years fro
302 StoutAirLines : Yes, I agree that the term, "harmonized," conveys clearer meaning to a broader audience and would really have been a better choice. My apologies. I w
303 Scbriml : Airbus is likely to have delivered more planes in 2007 than it has ever done before. That delivery number is set to rise over the next couple of year
304 Post contains images CygnusChicago : Actually, I'm not an Airbus supporter. I want to see my home town company get their butt! But, I love aircraft enough to relish the competition. And,
305 Post contains links Jsewoggie : For many years in was Pete, Marwick & Mitchell here in the states, then in 1987 they merged with Klynveld Main Goerdeler, to create KPMG. Of which KP
306 StoutAirLines : I really would be reluctant to challenge any audit findings coming from KPMG and have no reason to do so. (Besides, I have friends and relatives work
307 CygnusChicago : Interesting, neither did I. Always fun to find out where the acronyms come from - thanks. I have a bunch of friends at Bearingpoint (the old KPMG-con
308 Post contains images Flysherwood : How, exactly would you get a positive free cash flow without profit?
309 Post contains images Jsewoggie : You borrow money or sell assets, no other way, and you will eventually run out of both if you don't start turning a profit
310 Post contains images Flysherwood : Really?!?! Considering the fact that you do some consulting work for them, I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't be a supporter of the company
311 Tdscanuck : Can't this happen with deferred payments? If you booked a bunch of revenue late in the year but didn't get the cash, then received the cash the follo
312 Flysherwood : Profit will still be there at some point. This really isn't rocket science. In order to stay in business you have to take in more than you pay out. T
313 Tdscanuck : What you take in and pay out is cash flow, not profit. You recognize revenue when you do the service, not when you get paid. For some industries with
314 Post contains images EvilForce : Wait a minute. Supposedly Jsewoggie has been in "professional accounting for over 25 years" but didn't know what KPMG was???
315 Baroque : And then there are the questions of how other liabilities are treated. Tax, depreciation and a whole host of other things. They affect declared profi
316 NAV20 : I know what you mean, Tdscanuck, but the factual position is that, in the annual accounts for the financial year in which the cash flow bind happened
317 Post contains images Jsewoggie : I knew who they were. I just never paid attention to the initials, or the history of the merger, that is what I was talking about. I have worked for
318 Post contains links Heavierthanair : G'day, Almost, but not quite DONAUWOERTH, Germany (AFP) - European aircraft maker Airbus took almost as many orders as its US rival Boeing last year,
319 Astuteman : The article is worthy of a thread in its own right, methinks...... Regards
320 EvilForce : I found this part to be far more important than total number of sales: "Gallois said the group had sold 1,300 planes in 2007 at "better prices than w
321 Post contains images Stitch : It should be noted that per EADS' 2006 Annual Report, the cash and cash equivalents balance at the end of 2006 was a bit over 8 billion Euro, so it re
322 Post contains images Astuteman : ??? Net Cash at End 2006 was E4.2Bn, down from E5.5Bn at end 2005. They reported net Cash at end September 2007 as E4.5Bn, up E300m in the 9 months.
323 Baroque : Certainly is Well that is what is written. Might this not be a case of having not enough equations for the number of variables you need to solve? net
324 Post contains links Stitch : Okay, I see where you are finding that info in this press release. As of November 8th, EADS net cash was € 4.5 billion, so looks like they had
325 Post contains images Astuteman : Thanks Stitch. I got hard copies of those reports filed away. I suppose we'll have to wait to see what Galloise meant by "cash surplus" (it's not in
326 Post contains images Stitch : EADS has been adding to it's free cash flow since Q1 (where it took a serious hit). As of Q3 it was up some 800 million Euros, so it stands to reason
327 Post contains images Astuteman : Sure is! You should have seen it with three Trident subs inside - full to the gunwales it was! You tend to get blase about it after a while. It sure
328 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Just to have a conclusion to the thread's start..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...unce-1341-net-orders-for-2007.html Quote: "Airbus gained n
329 Post contains images Iwok : Since Airbus has so many outstanding LOI's, 2008 looks to be good and probably better than Boeing in terms of orders. It looks like the new management
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