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Why Is FRA Busier Then Berlin Or MUC?  
User currently offlineAlexEU From Nauru, joined Oct 2007, 1824 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6461 times:

Both Berlin and Munich have larger population then Frankfurt, so i wonder why is FRA busier airport?

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6430 times:

FRA is the money and business center in Germany. Since Berlin was restricted after WW2 I guess Lufthansa searched a new place.

User currently offlineAdicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6407 times:

As already said, FRA is the financial and economical capital of Germany (and right after that comes MUC...).
Frankfurt as a city is of course not as big as Berlin or Munich, but FRA is one of those artificial hubs...most of the pax arriving in FRA connect to other destinations. LH saw the potential in FRA and I think this is also very important. Without LH opening a hub in FRA, FRA could have never become as big as it is now.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6402 times:

FRA has the big advantage of having almost the perfect location within Germany: it's about as central as things get. You need about 4 hours by train to Munich, to Berlin, about 3 1/2 to Hamburg, around an hour to Cologne and about 1 1/2 to Düsseldorf; almost no big city - if any - is further than 4 hours away by train: the result is that Frankfurt has a huge number of train connections. Remember - there are large areas in Germany where going there by plane is truly idiotic, because the train connections are so good throughout the country, you'll arrive quicker if you don't fly.

If you look at MUC, you'd need more than 6 or 7 hours from some of the larger cities in the north of Germany, so the location - connection-wise - is nowhere near as ideal as FRA is... but at least MUC has something that Berlin doesn't: money, in other words: high yielding passengers.

And then there's also the issue of the airport - before MUC's FJS airport opened, and the city was served by Riem airport, there was just no way that MUC could be anything even resembling a hub: that place was just far too small.

And, as OHLHD correctly states, Berlin was limited after the WW2: LH wasn't permitted to fly to Berlin until 1989 or 1990 (I would need to look that up, not sure which year it was), so Berlin simply wasn't an option... and, just like Munich, the location is far from as good as Frankfurt's location is.

... and the banks here in Frankfurt sure didn't hurt either - creates lot's of high-yielding passengers as well...  Wink



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6407 times:

It's very near to the Rhein Main Region , being the most important Industrial Region Europe it was and is very important for LH to be near of it . And as Aidcool said , FRA is the financial capital of Germany .

Constantin


User currently onlineTurkishSky From Turkey, joined Mar 2004, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6389 times:



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 4):
FRA is the financial capital of Germany .

and of Europe....



Flown 4I 9U AA AB AF AZ BA BD BR CA CU CX EI FR HV JK JP JU KK KL KM LH LX MA ME MS NG OA OK QR OS RJ RO SA SK SQ SR SU
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6375 times:



Quoting Adicool (Reply 2):
but FRA is one of those artificial hubs

Might be - but it was, more or less, the only logical choice.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 4):
It's very near to the Rhein Main Region

Very near? Technically, you could call it that: it's in the Rhein Main region...  Wink ...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3185 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6359 times:

What has been the role of DUS in the years after the second world war? Location-wise, DUS seems to have a good location as well.

Looking at the number of people living within 60-120 minutes from the airport, DUS ranks probably number one in Germany. The banks and stock exchange in Frankfurt help FRA, but heavy industry seems more situated around DUS.

My personal impression is that the reason FRA is LHs mega-hub and not DUS, is merely a result of some decisions made a long time ago. Has LH ever considered building a large hub at DUS? Since when are the noise restrictions in place? And who knows how the Dusseldorf area would have developed, if DUS were the mega hub that FRA is?


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3185 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6322 times:



Quoting TurkishSky (Reply 5):
and [the financial capital] of Europe....

But it has only been the financial capital since the mid 1990s. At the time, FRA already was Germany's and Lufhansa's primary hub. So that can not have affected the decision to create a hub at FRA.

We will never know, but I dare to say that if FRA did not have the amount of flights that is has, the European Commission might not have chosen Frankfurt as the city for the ECB.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6265 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 8):
We will never know, but I dare to say that if FRA did not have the amount of flights that is has, the European Commission might not have chosen Frankfurt as the city for the ECB.

Admittedly, we will never know - but I guess the fact that FRA was the most important finance center within the countries that were planning on using the Euro (as well as the location of Germany's central bank) also had a little bit to do with it...  Wink ... the flights certainly didn't hurt either, but I seriously doubt that they were the main deciding factor: after all, how would you then explain Brussels and Strassbourg as the centers of EU legislation?



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4060 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6187 times:

Frankfurt was an important airport before WWII, while Dusseldorf back then was just one of a number of airports that served the Rhein/Ruhr area. Indeed, in the 1920s/1930s there was more traffic at airports such as Essen and Dortmund.

User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6130 times:



Quoting Leskova (Reply 9):
after all, how would you then explain Brussels and Strassbourg as the centers of EU legislation

Ah, don't get me started on that.... Brussels I can live with, but Strasbourg ^*()*(%*(?%*

Yes, Strasbourg is a pleasant town, and I know it was chosen for being the main town at the border of the two biggest EEC states (and still the biggest EU states now), but the BRU-SXB travelling circus every month is such a waste of money!



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6011 times:



Quoting TurkishSky (Reply 5):
and of Europe....

What happened to Switzerland with their million banks, how did they fall out of the running.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5992 times:

... deleted... off topic...  Wink

[Edited 2007-12-31 08:20:09]


Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5988 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 12):
What happened to Switzerland with their million banks, how did they fall out of the running.

There is no doubt that Frankfurt is and, for some time, has been the financial capital of continental Europe. Swiss banks get lots of press and media attention for being secretive and wealthy, but in terms of size and clout they have never rivaled those of Germany, Britain or the US. Zurich is a big banking center, sure, but nothing compared to London, New York or Frankfurt.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5969 times:



Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):

I also say Ruhr Gebiet  Smile


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4060 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5963 times:

Just looked up the pax numbers at German airports for 1928 to give you an idea:

Berlin 31.451
Cologne* 16.340
Frankfurt 15.208
Munich 14.766
Halle/Leipzig 13.477
Hamburg 12.709
Hannover 10.189
Stuttgart 9.820
Essen/Mülheim 7.761
...
Dortmund* 5.191
...
Düsseldorf 2.578

* Note that Dortmund and Cologne airport before WW II were at a different place than the airports of the same name nowadays.

This nicely illustrates that Düsseldorf until the 1950s was a minor German airport, whereas Frankfurt already was a big airport before WW II. You should also be aware of the fact that Düsseldorf only became state capital after WW II


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5898 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Thread starter):
Both Berlin and Munich have larger population then Frankfurt, so i wonder why is FRA busier airport?

1 Rhein-Ruhr 11 805 631
2 Berlin 4 025 781
3 Hamburg 3 275 827
4 Rhein-Main 3 123 338
5 Stuttgart 2 341 651
6 Munich 2 321 954
7 Alma 2 128 092
8 Rhein-Neckar 1 515 605
9 Bielefeld 1 446 125
10 Halle-Leipzig 1 395 606

As you see Rhein-Main, which contains Frankfurt AM, is the 4th largest metro in Germany. Add to that Rhein-Neckar, for which FRA is also the primary airport, and you have the second largest metro in Germany at 4.8 million. Rhein-Ruhr, and Berlin are not nearly as high yielding markets as FRA as has been pointed out.


User currently offlineAlexEU From Nauru, joined Oct 2007, 1824 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5722 times:

Cheers for the answers.

Are there long-range flights from Berlin, apart from EWR and JFK?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5629 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 14):
Swiss banks get lots of press and media attention for being secretive and wealthy, but in terms of size and clout they have never rivaled those of Germany, Britain or the US. Zurich is a big banking center, sure, but nothing compared to London, New York or Frankfurt.

At the end of 2004, the largest Swiss Bank, UBS, was the world's largest when ranked by assets, roughly 1/3 larger than Deutsche Bank, the largest German bank. The rankings may have changed slightly since but I couldn't find anything more recent.
http://www.economist.com/surveys/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6908408

Banks and financial institutions in Switzerland play a major role in wealth management. One recent figure mentioned that approximately 1/3 of the world's private and institutional wealth was managed in Switzerland. While the large commercial banks UBS and Credit Suisse are based in ZRH, GVA is a major center for private banking -- the term used for wealth management for high net worth individuals and institutions.


User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4414 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5455 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 12):
What happened to Switzerland with their million banks, how did they fall out of the running.



Quoting Ssides (Reply 14):
There is no doubt that Frankfurt is and, for some time, has been the financial capital of continental Europe. Swiss banks get lots of press and media attention for being secretive and wealthy, but in terms of size and clout they have never rivaled those of Germany, Britain or the US. Zurich is a big banking center, sure, but nothing compared to London, New York or Frankfurt

In addition Switzerland is not part of the EU.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5296 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 18):
Are there long-range flights from Berlin, apart from EWR and JFK?

Apart from charter / leisure flights to warm water destinations, only the following come to my mind:
QR to DOH
EK is requesting traffic rights to DXB but gets it denied ever so often (Unless I miss some new development)
Is Ulaan Bataar in Mongolia still served ?
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9735 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5252 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
at has been the role of DUS in the years after the second world war? Location-wise, DUS seems to have a good location as we

DUS has the largest catchment area of all in Germany and should be the logical hub. In the 50s, most Intercont flights of LH called at DUS . However, the airport is too close to the city and the region missed the chance in the 50/60s to establish a hub. Look at the combined traffic figures of DUS/CGN/DTM , that is more than 30 Million in 2007 and hardly any transit.

coming to the question, FRA always has been the crossroads of major European trading lines from north to south and from east to west. The name contains "FURT" - translated FORD, a shallow part of the river where the waggons could cross.

It is a natural hub and an ideal location The crossing of the A3 and A5 Autobahn which are right next to the airport is one of the busiest and that goes for the rail lines and the city train station as well. The airport ICE train station is actually the 4th runway right now.

Happy new year.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 3712 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5243 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 18):
Are there long-range flights from Berlin, apart from EWR and JFK?

I believe MIAT-Mongolian Air serves TXL-Ulan Bator. Also, hasn't Air China started TXL-PEK/PVG?



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4939 times:

As far as I know these are the long-haul scheduled flights out of Berlin :

- Continental (Newark)
- Delta (New York)
- Miat - Mongolian Airlines (Ulaan Baatar)
- Qatar Airways (Doha)


What surprises me more is that a city of more than 4 mil people, capital of the most populated country in Europe, gets just 4 long-haul flights (2 of which are to the same very popular area of New York region, 1 to Arabian Peninsula, 1 to Mongolia via Moscow). I think is a unique situation in whole Europe.


25 LIPZ : Not yet, I guess they could resume TXL-PEK sometime in the future. It does make sense since there is a very large Chinese community in Berlin.
26 Post contains images HT : To what degree will TXL be able to accomodate more flights and more pax ? Into this question also the pending closure of THF needs to be taken into ac
27 PanHAM : No surprise at all. The median income in Berlin is lower than average, a big portion of the population lives on welfare and has no income available f
28 Vfw614 : Germany is pretty much decentralized, unlike most European countries. Berlin is the capital of Germany, but other than being home of government insti
29 LIPZ : To be honest I never remember Rome overshadowed by Milan regarding airline traffic. There used to be in the past and there are still nowadays more in
30 Gsosbee : You can do the same banking at Swiss banks in Frankfurt as you can do in Zurich. As noted, Switzerland is not part of the EU, but even if it were, Fr
31 PanHAM : No, it is polycentric No, the Airlift was not only from FRA, several other airports including HAJ and HAM were involved. The airlift has nothing to d
32 Breiz : There was two main reasons to adopt Flughaven Frankfurt am Main as Lufthansa home base at the end of the WW2: - its natural home, Berlin, was restrict
33 Vfw614 : If so, only be pure coincidence as the more logical choices would have been Cologne, Dortmund or Essen. Only because Dortmund and Cologne, both much
34 Gsosbee : True, but Rhein-Main AB was the American hub and were all of the heavy lifting was done.
35 PanHAM : Yes, but that was separate from the commercial operations, Up until the Cargo City South opened, the souhern side of the airport was military only an
36 Vfw614 : The fact remains that pre WWII Cologne was six times larger than Düsseldorf airport, Essen was three times larger and Dortmund twice as large.
37 PanHAM : @Vfw614 - neither Brakel nor Butzweilerhof had any potential for expansion. Also, you totally forget that air travel, as we know it today, started off
38 BuyantUkhaa : Isn't it ironic then, that there is this big airline called Air Berlin, that actually has its hub on a Mediterranean island?!
39 PanHAM : same like this big Australian airline having a hub in SIN. You have to go where the business is and linking a number of northern European cities with
40 Vfw614 : Err, yes, With hindsight. But the airport landscape in the late 1940s/early 1950s was not developed with the knowledge of today. The pre-war figures
41 Someone83 : London is still considered to be part of Europe..... even though it's not in "Continental" Europe
42 LHStarAlliance : with London
43 Post contains images LTU932 : Not to mention that for motorists, it's pretty well connected to the Autobahn network, with basically connections to most corners of the country.
44 Post contains links Concorde001 : I think you will find London is without a doubt the fiancial capital of Europe and has been for many years. London is now considered my many financia
45 PanHAM : I spend the first 10 years of my live in a city between DUS and CGN and I know that area quite well. Forget all the political "experts", they screwed
46 Glareskin : But I think you miss the point. It is not about DUS but more about why the Ruhr / Rhein region didn't make it as a hub. It is almost as central in Ge
47 PanHAM : You are absolutely right and LH had to make that choice because the local governemnt in Northrhine Westphalia missed the flight, so to speak. Many of
48 Post contains images Glareskin : It looks like this is happening thanks to the pressure from AB and the Americans. I think LH foresees enough growth in FRA even when they lose some c
49 PanHAM : No , all over Germany, mainly in FRA and MUC they said, but that figure includes 360 trainee pilots as well. it is a mix of reasons. AB has certainly
50 HT : No. Quite a share of these will be in FRA and MUC, the remainder spread out ... -HT
51 Vfw614 : I have been looking at the statistics from 1925 to 1939. While of course there has been some political influence after 1933, the decisions which dest
52 United787 : The long term affects of WWII and the Cold War on Berlin are interesting and sad. I wonder how long it will take Berlin to recover and regain its glo
53 PanHAM : What have the statistics of 1925-1939 to do with air traffic after 1955? There is no continuity whatsoever, WWII changed the game completely. Germany
54 Dazeflight : The comparisons are not valid out of the simple fact that Berlin is still the largest city and one of the largest metropolitan areas in Germany. Berl
55 Vfw614 : Well, let's see: The Ruhr valley was at the same place, conurbations were at the same place, the industry was at the same place, the geography was th
56 Incitatus : This is an interesting thread - it is added knowledge! My (foreign) perception has always been that Frankfurt developed for lack of a better choice. R
57 PanHAM : What has changed are the aircraft - before ww2, you needed a round grass field with roughly 1000 meters diameter and many of the old airports you quo
58 Viscount724 : AC's first service to Germany was to DUS. They didn't serve FRA until the late 1960s if memory correct. I think poilitics were involved. The Canadian
59 Post contains images N1120A : Not to mention that FRA, as noted, is better situated geographically. I think it was 1990, after the wall came down. Well, I wouldn't go that far. Re
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