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Is The Cseries Suitable Replacement For The MD-80?  
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9926 times:

SAS are saying that they will announce what kind of planes that will replace the Q400, and in the longer term replace the MD-80. A wild speculation here. Could it be possible for the C130 to replace the MD-80 and NextGen CRJ for the Q400? That way SAS will save the glory of the Bombardier, and probably get a very nice discount. SAS MD-80 takes about 141-145 passenger. The C130 takes 145 in high density seating.

Could the C130 be a better replacement for the MD-80 than a 737-700/737-800 or A319/A320?

http://bombardier.com/en/3_0/3_8/img/C130_3view.gif

[Edited 2008-01-04 10:08:05]


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9908 times:

It would make sense to use smaller more efficient planes like the C130 that were built for these types of routes. But if they want more range then they would probably go with a 737 variant.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9886 times:

MD80s are larger than the C-Series. MD80s are similar in capacity to the A320. Only the MD87 is smaller, and it's still a bit larger than the C130, but SAS only has 11(20) of those, so they would be downsizing the majority of their MD80 fleet with the C130. But maybe a mix of C130s and A320 or 73Gs would be suitable?

C110 is obviously smaller, more in the 717/DC9 size, which means C series may be a replacement for the NW DC9s. Finally a suitable replacement? And in two sizes no less.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9886 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 1):
It would make sense to use smaller more efficient planes like the C130 that were built for these types of routes. But if they want more range then they would probably go with a 737 variant.

It could make lots of sense. However, SAS needs a plane for European range, and the C130ER has 2700Nm range. I believe that would be sufficient for most of their network. And if SAS buys between 75 and 100 C-series. Who knows. Bombardier might launch a C150 to replace the 738 at one time...  cloudnine 



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9882 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
MD80s are larger than the C-Series. MD80s are similar in capacity to the A320.

True. But it seems like the C-series has a better utilization of space, than the MD-80. Not having rear mounted engines and a wider fuselage seems to address the fact that the C-series has a 7 meter shorter fuselage. It seems to match the payload of the MD-80, beats the range.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9841 times:

A manufacturer may design a plane to replace an earlier model of its own, but in general, airlines aren't necessarily looking for exact size-to-size replacements when they are re-evaluating their fleets, particularly for short- and medium-haul. If they did, we wouldn't have regional jets. Airlines' fleet needs evolve.

When Air Canada started changing its fleet in the mid eighties, for example, it had the 727 and the DC-9. It replaced both types (eventually) with the A320 family, which included planes with a broader range of capacity. Post CCAA, with scope restrictions out the window, the company introduced a slew of regional jets at this regional and mainline affiliates in the 50-, 70s and 90s sizes and some of the Airbus narrowbodies have been returned to lessors.

There has been widespread talk of Northwest's DC-9s being the "only" major fleet replacement need for which the C-Series is suited. That's pure nonsense. NW could replace the planes with C-Series, or it could increase frequencies and introduce more nonstops with a mixture of 50-, 75, and/or 90-pax RJs. Similarly, the C-Series could be ideal for the fleets of many carriers that don't currently have any aircraft in that size.

In the same way that some companies used 50-seat RJs to cut down their fleets of mainline narrowbodies by increasing frequencies and bypassing some hubs, the C-Series could be used to do the same thing for a carrier currently operating 737s or A320s today.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9806 times:



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 4):
True. But it seems like the C-series has a better utilization of space, than the MD-80. Not having rear mounted engines and a wider fuselage seems to address the fact that the C-series has a 7 meter shorter fuselage. It seems to match the payload of the MD-80, beats the range.

But you'd leave 20 pax behind. That's not always the best option on these type of routes, where you are balancing frequency with CASM, and capacity at different times of day. While a route might average 125 seats per flight in a day, it doesn't mean you can replace the mix of Q400 and MD80 flights on a route with an "average" capacity CSeries and make it work.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9794 times:

The 737 and A320 are considered better replacements according to size.

The C-Series would be targeted to NW's DC-9s and airlines still flying 737-200s.

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 5):
When Air Canada started changing its fleet in the mid eighties, for example, it had the 727 and the DC-9. It replaced both types (eventually) with the A320 family, which included planes with a broader range of capacity.

I remember the MD-88 made the short list for AC's 727 replacement. Though it just wouldn't look right in AC colors...



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9768 times:

The 737 and A320 are considered better replacements according to size.

The C-Series would be targeted to NW's DC-9s and airlines still flying 737-200s.


Airlines don't make fleet decisions based on aircraft size. They make decisions based on the structure of their network and which aircraft will fit into their network in the right way to maximize overall profitability.


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9729 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
But you'd leave 20 pax behind. That's not always the best option on these type of routes, where you are balancing frequency with CASM, and capacity at different times of day.

Very true. But does anybody know what the seat pitch is when the C130 has 145 passengers, compared to when SAS puts 145 passengers in their MD-80 airplanes? With wider seats that are not as low as on the MD-80 and a narrower pitch it might just be that the passenger wouldn't feel more cramped than in an MD-80.

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 5):

You bring up some interesting points Drgmobile. When reading your reply, I believe it really could be a good MD-80 replacement.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
While a route might average 125 seats per flight in a day, it doesn't mean you can replace the mix of Q400 and MD80 flights on a route with an "average" capacity CSeries and make it work.

I believe SAS will order some RJ for short term replacement of the Q400 and started thinking about the C-series as a replacement for the MD-80. Buying all planes from Bombardier would be a brave move by SAS, and I am pretty sure they would get a good price. That is if SAS dares to launch a new Bombardier product.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineNycbjr From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9673 times:

any one else think the C-130 is a dumb name? lol I keep thinking lockheed is finally producing a civilian version  Silly

User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9653 times:



Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 10):
any one else think the C-130 is a dumb name? lol I keep thinking lockheed is finally producing a civilian version

That must be one of the reasons why they keep on writing about the C130 rather than C-130.  Smile Not that anyone would notice. By the way does the C stand for Canadair or Commercial?



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineBravo1Six From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 396 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9636 times:



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
That must be one of the reasons why they keep on writing about the C130 rather than C-130. Not that anyone would notice. By the way does the C stand for Canadair or Commercial?

Commercial.


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5925 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9594 times:



Quoting Bravo1Six (Reply 12):
Commercial.

While it may seem so, it is not...

"Bombardier Aerospace announced today the name of its new commercial aircraft family and revealed the aircraft’s distinctive black and white livery.

The CSeries, for Competitive, Continental, Connector, would target airlines operating aircraft in the lower end of the 100- to 150-passenger market, a large segment that is not well served by any aircraft in production today. Many air carriers in that category currently rely on aging DC9, Fokker 100, Boeing 737 Classic, BAe-146, MD80 and other aircraft that are scheduled to retire by the end of the decade, leaving the field open for innovative replacements."



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineBravo1Six From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 396 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9554 times:

Well, ya learn something new every day, including stuff that I should have known to begin with  Smile

User currently offlineNycbjr From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9537 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
The CSeries, for Competitive, Continental, Connector,

thats even more dumb hehehe.. I wish them luck.. I still don't see A or B abandoning the lower than 150 seat market entirely


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9517 times:
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SAS is stuffing lots of seats into their aircraft these days, the A321 has 198 seats, the A319 has 141 seats, the newly delivered B73G has 141 seats, the B734 has 162 seats, the new B738 has 180-189 seats... just like LCCs.

And why not... SAS flies lots of LCC routes and charter flights with low yields, so a 145-seat C130 would probably be more comfy than their current aircraft.

I think a 145-seat C130 will have 30 inch pitch, as the 130-seat C130 has 32 inch pitch. Not too shabby...



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9367 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
The CSeries, for Competitive, Continental, Connector, would target airlines operating aircraft in the lower end of the 100- to 150-passenger market, a large segment that is not well served by any aircraft in production today. Many air carriers in that category currently rely on aging DC9, Fokker 100, Boeing 737 Classic, BAe-146, MD80 and other aircraft that are scheduled to retire by the end of the decade, leaving the field open for innovative replacements."

Hey. Thank you for providing an answer. It says here that Bombardier sees the C-series as a replacement for the MD-80.

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 15):
thats even more dumb hehe he.. I wish them luck.. I still don't see A or B abandoning the lower than 150 seat market entirely

I think this is a clever move on Bombardiers part. With the current backlog of 737NG and A320 Boeing and Airbus do not seems to be hasty for replacements just yet. And they are now talking about 2015 to 2017 before a new replacement. This means Bombardier has time to get some traction for the C-series. And I will not be surprised if we see a C150 and C170 in the future.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 16):
I think a 145-seat C130 will have 30 inch pitch, as the 130-seat C130 has 32 inch pitch. Not too shabby...

I bet you are right. Since the C-series has wider seats it will feel better for the passenger than the current 737NG and A320 offer. Of course some airlines might put in six abreast to get a really low CASM.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9357 times:



Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 8):
Airlines don't make fleet decisions based on aircraft size.

sure they do. it's a major factor. not the only factor, but a major one. It's one reason Boeing bumped the 737-800 size to larger than the 737-400, because the 737-800 capacity was a direct replacement for the 727 capacity and replaced many 727s around the world, where the 737-400 was a direct size competitor to the MD80 series (excpet the 87).

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 16):
so a 145-seat C130 would probably be more comfy than their current aircraft.

no way. 141 seats in a 73G is not nearly as cramped as 144 seats in a C130.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 17):
Thank you for providing an answer. It says here that Bombardier sees the C-series as a replacement for the MD-80.

That doesn't make it so. Boeing said the 736 would be a good replacement for existing 100 seat aircraft of the time. But it wasn't a very good replacement for anything.  Wink

For example, AA will not be replacing their fleet of MD80s with C130s any time soon.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9302 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):

no way. 141 seats in a 73G is not nearly as cramped as 144 seats in a C130.

But the seats will be wider in the Cseries. If you put in taller seats, it may not feel as cramped.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
That doesn't make it so. Boeing said the 736 would be a good replacement for existing 100 seat aircraft of the time. But it wasn't a very good replacement for anything.

But the 736 was a much heavier plane than the plane it replaced. Whereas the Cseries will be a much lighter plane. And isn't the C110 actually built like a B736 competitor and the C130 a B73G competitor? If you look at the floor plans it may suggest that the floor area is as large on the Cseries as on the 736/73G. I know that it offers only 5 abreast seating, but it is almost as wide as the 737NG.

These floor plans suggest that the Cseries does in fact mach the seating capacity of the 736/73G. If you look at the C110 mixed seating is 100 compared to 102 in 736 mixed seating. The C130 mixed seating is 119 seats compared to 126 in the 73G. And as you can see with in this seating config business class on the Cseries counts twice as many seats as on the Boeing 737. I believe the MD-80 is closer in size to the 73G than the 738.

C110


C130


B736/737/738/739



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7027 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9220 times:

The series will be a good replacement for older MD 80 and 737 classics. SAS just said they want to replace their older aircraft and I can see the CSeries being evaluated as a MD 80 replacement.
I also can see it as a 737-300/-500 replacement with LH. LH is one of the most important customers of Bombardier and the 737 needs to be replaced soon (sadly). The EJets will replace the Avros/Bae with Cityline, Eurowings etc and I can see the CSeries being the smallest mainline aircraft.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineCEO@AFG From Norway, joined Jan 2001, 244 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9177 times:

I seriously doubt SK will get the C series as a launch customer. After the Dash 8Q400 debacle, they have a stated goal of NEVER being the launch customer of any aircraft.

Being the launch customer of another Bombardier product, seems even more unlikely!

If the aircraft is launched, I'm sure SK will look at it.

For the coming announcement later in January on SK's fleet strategy, Expect new orders of 737NGs for Norway and Sweden and A32Xs for Denmark. I'm also quite confident SK will get CRJ-700/900/1000 next gen to replace most of the Q400s.



"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue." Steven McCroskey, Airplane!
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7929 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9137 times:

I still think SAS will buy more 737-700/800's and more A319/A320 models to replace the aging MD-80 series fleet. They might seriously look at buying the ATR-72 if ATR is willing to develop a new version designed for cold weather operations.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9122 times:



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 22):
I still think SAS will buy more 737-700/800's and more A319/A320 models to replace the aging MD-80 series fleet.

I agree, at least for the majority of the planes.

MD80s are just larger than people realize or are willing to admit for this thread for whatever reason. They are larger than 733/73Gs. The 734 was designed as a direct competitor, and the A320 as a competitor/replacement, and the C130 is not as big as a 734 or A320 no matter how you slice it.

Now, could it suit A319 carriers that don't fly over 1500nm or carriers like CO with a large fleet of 733 and 735? Possibly, if they want a new/added type in their fleet...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFanfan From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9097 times:

My complimnts to all - this is an excellent discussion.

Perhaps, 2008 is the year for Bombardier to get serious at alst about the CSeries? The point about A & B backlogs particularly ring a bell. Even Embraer is sitting on a pile of orders. Where does the demand go?

Demand is for fuel efficient planes ASAP. Nobody wants to wait much after 2010 - their business could be dead by then.

So....if Bombardier hustles this year it could make some progress. For example the CSeries is the GTF launch customer. That brings down its fuel burn way below anything in its class. A crucial issues these days.

All the stars are aligned here - if only the Canadians DO something - like make a decision.

As has been pointed out numerous times on this excellent thread, there are a lot of planes the CSeries can replace.

If Bombardier misses this year, I would guess the CSeries never makes it - as postulated by Richard Aboulafia, who feels the plane will never be built.


25 PavlovsDog : I thought the Mitsubishi regional Jet was the launch customer for the GTF. It sounds like Sukhoi will probably go ahead with the SuperJet 110 which w
26 Post contains images Oykie : I believe you are right. In the start LH said the Cseries was to heavy, and not optimized for their route structure. But the latest redesign should h
27 Post contains images CEO@AFG : My compliments to the thread starter, refreshing to have a topic without the usual mudslinging. It's my understanding SAS will hold another board meet
28 Planemaker : The orders could quickly evaporate with consolidation and/or a recession. I believe that is part of the reason why both A and B are putting off launc
29 Ikramerica : come on, man. I'm not talking about the length of the freaking plane. I'm talking about actual SEATING capacity, and the MD80 (ex 87) is a LARGER PLA
30 Post contains images OyKIE : Thanks I was not aware of this. Will be interesting to see what they will announce. I will keep my eyes and ears open this day. Going a bit of topic
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