ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 986 times:
Say the Aerion comes to physical fruition, and enters service... what do you type think of the feasibility of them operating for major Legacies (a la BA, AF, LH; and maybe even DL, CO, AA)?
I'm envisioning this supposition as something of a mix between Air Elite and PrivatAir: private company operating small-capacity high-luxury frequencies on behalf of a Legacy carrier.
I'd imagine the CASM on such an operation would be outrageous, but could the trip costs (vis-a-vis the ticket prices that could be demanded: 6-8 people paying $14,000+ each) offset such, or is there even enough information out there to even roughly determine that at this point?
ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 944 times:
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter): but could the trip costs (vis-a-vis the ticket prices that could be demanded: 6-8 people paying $14,000+ each) offset such, or is there even enough information out there to even roughly determine that at this point?
Cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 44 Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 931 times:
I don't think BA or Air France could operate it. I think they've lost that market for good. And the most of the other older legacies abandoned the whole idea of supersonic flight - it would be very difficult for them to appeal to those kinds of customers.
And the other thing that will work against it (and any other SST) is the prospect of terrorism and the onset of high speed internet and video conferencing.
The Aerion may only ever sell to a few extremely wealthy individuals.
Rheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1956 posts, RR: 52 Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 927 times:
While we are at it, the horizontal stab is pretty close to the jet exhaust plume. A good recipee for buffeting and acoustic fatigue issues. The whole empennage looks a little flimsy, but my intuition may be biased towards supersonic airfames that go 9g instead of just 2,5g
It will be very interesting to see whether low-pressure sonic boom designs like the Aerion lead to a lift of the current ban on supersonic overland flights.
Cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 44 Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 915 times:
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 3): While we are at it, the horizontal stab is pretty close to the jet exhaust plume. A good recipee for buffeting and acoustic fatigue issues. The whole empennage looks a little flimsy, but my intuition may be biased towards supersonic airfames that go 9g instead of just 2,5g Smile
It will be very interesting to see whether low-pressure sonic boom designs like the Aerion lead to a lift of the current ban on supersonic overland flights.
I forgot about that ban. But, surely it's possible through the wonders of modern bureaucracy to selectively apply it.
It is a shame they needed the horizontal stabs at all, but the design obviously prevents any weight moving solutions (which are the best methods to balance this kind of plane). But perhaps they are up just far enough out of the exhaust blast to not face fatigue issues.
If these were reheated engines, it'd be another thing altogether..
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 12735 posts, RR: 79 Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 899 times:
I would love to see it, including at BA...(not that I'm biased!)
But, it would be after the basic SSBJ version was in service, proven, both in the aircraft itself and the reaction to, the crunch being if it's economic enough at high subsonic speed over a land mass that will not allow supersonic operation, even probably if a very low boom type is in operation. That just happens to include the US.
So an 'airline' Aerion would be a development, can a 'MK.2' one be stretched some to allow say 12-18 pax without sacrificing range?
Assuming it meets noise regs, I'd envisage an operation, like Private-air, Elite, Project Lauren as originally planned, offering for BA, early departures from somewhere close enough to London, but not at a major airport (RAF Northolt already has civilian biz jet traffic).
Not as fast as Concorde, but to get the mooted 'fly to NY and still do a day's business' goal, early departure from discreet, low ultiliasion fields would be needed.
I do not think it's case of 'BA and AF having lost the market', in this instance, they were the only ones who ever had it, meaning of course SST's rather than conventional airliners as BBJ/ABJ's.
To me, Aerion seems the only realistic pax supersonic that looks like a serious project, also though slower than Concorde, this does avoid many issues that would mean something unrealistic today, no need for variable intakes, skin temp/enviromental demands lower, using a well proven powerplant that is at least of a reasonably high bypass.
No need to try and build an engine that has to be a high bypass fan for take off/landing, subsonic cruise, then turns into and engine suitable for acceleration through the sound barrier then supercruise at Mach 2.
CygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 845 times:
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter): what do you type think of the feasibility of them operating for major Legacies
I don't think we'll see them with major legacies, but we may see them in a new elite airline. Kind of a reinvention of Legend, but operating from small convenient, fields that see very few delays.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
Cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 44 Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 831 times:
Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 6): no need for variable intakes, skin temp/enviromental demands lower
The intakes were not a very complex system. Just a pair of intake ramps creating a shockwave focussed on the intake to slow air down to M0.7, with two computers and backup manual inching switches to operate them should the computers fail. It's the kind of thing a FMC would do today.
The temperature demands could certainly be met with current materials technology.
I want the Aerion to succeed - but I want it to go up to Mach 2.0. At now, it's a serious paper design, but no more serious than the Avion de Transporte Supersonique Futur better known as Alliance. I think for airlines that have already operated a very convenient M2.0 airline service - it would be very difficult to market a new and slower service to the same customers. How would market it?
I could bet you Air France wouldn't be interested in anything supersonic these days, unless market forces dragged them kicking and screaming to play catch up. BA I think is much more progressive thinking - and that's why it did much better with the Concorde service.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 12735 posts, RR: 79 Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 806 times:
The intakes on Concorde were a VERY complex piece of engineering.
They also consumed a lot of maint man hours. http://www.concordesst.com/powerplant.html
True, modern computing/electronics, have come on in leaps and bounds since the early digital sets fitted as part of the Air Intake Control System, even so, on a civil jet, such a system is a big ask.
While we would all like to see any new SSBJ match Concorde in speed, but practicality deems otherwise.
It does not take big speed increases to seriously affect structure and systems, Concorde was designed for Mach 2.2, in service, this was pegged at just over Mach 2, since the extra temp. generated could in time, cause more issues later, simply put, 10 minutes more at Mach 2 on a LHR-JFK, or maybe 10 years less service at Mach 2.2, the former of course being the wise choice.
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