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Aerion Operated For Major Legacies?  
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1276 times:

Say the Aerion comes to physical fruition, and enters service... what do you type think of the feasibility of them operating for major Legacies (a la BA, AF, LH; and maybe even DL, CO, AA)?



I'm envisioning this supposition as something of a mix between Air Elite and PrivatAir: private company operating small-capacity high-luxury frequencies on behalf of a Legacy carrier.



I'd imagine the CASM on such an operation would be outrageous, but could the trip costs (vis-a-vis the ticket prices that could be demanded: 6-8 people paying $14,000+ each) offset such, or is there even enough information out there to even roughly determine that at this point?

10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1234 times:



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
but could the trip costs (vis-a-vis the ticket prices that could be demanded: 6-8 people paying $14,000+ each) offset such, or is there even enough information out there to even roughly determine that at this point?

...found this, to add:



Also, any information on expected ac-costs?


User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1221 times:

I don't think BA or Air France could operate it. I think they've lost that market for good. And the most of the other older legacies abandoned the whole idea of supersonic flight - it would be very difficult for them to appeal to those kinds of customers.

And the other thing that will work against it (and any other SST) is the prospect of terrorism and the onset of high speed internet and video conferencing.

The Aerion may only ever sell to a few extremely wealthy individuals.


User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

While we are at it, the horizontal stab is pretty close to the jet exhaust plume. A good recipee for buffeting and acoustic fatigue issues. The whole empennage looks a little flimsy, but my intuition may be biased towards supersonic airfames that go 9g instead of just 2,5g  Smile

It will be very interesting to see whether low-pressure sonic boom designs like the Aerion lead to a lift of the current ban on supersonic overland flights.


User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1205 times:



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 3):
While we are at it, the horizontal stab is pretty close to the jet exhaust plume. A good recipee for buffeting and acoustic fatigue issues. The whole empennage looks a little flimsy, but my intuition may be biased towards supersonic airfames that go 9g instead of just 2,5g Smile

It will be very interesting to see whether low-pressure sonic boom designs like the Aerion lead to a lift of the current ban on supersonic overland flights.

I forgot about that ban. But, surely it's possible through the wonders of modern bureaucracy to selectively apply it.  Wink

It is a shame they needed the horizontal stabs at all, but the design obviously prevents any weight moving solutions (which are the best methods to balance this kind of plane). But perhaps they are up just far enough out of the exhaust blast to not face fatigue issues.

If these were reheated engines, it'd be another thing altogether..  Wink


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13166 posts, RR: 78
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

I would love to see it, including at BA...(not that I'm biased!)

But, it would be after the basic SSBJ version was in service, proven, both in the aircraft itself and the reaction to, the crunch being if it's economic enough at high subsonic speed over a land mass that will not allow supersonic operation, even probably if a very low boom type is in operation. That just happens to include the US.

So an 'airline' Aerion would be a development, can a 'MK.2' one be stretched some to allow say 12-18 pax without sacrificing range?
Assuming it meets noise regs, I'd envisage an operation, like Private-air, Elite, Project Lauren as originally planned, offering for BA, early departures from somewhere close enough to London, but not at a major airport (RAF Northolt already has civilian biz jet traffic).
Not as fast as Concorde, but to get the mooted 'fly to NY and still do a day's business' goal, early departure from discreet, low ultiliasion fields would be needed.

I do not think it's case of 'BA and AF having lost the market', in this instance, they were the only ones who ever had it, meaning of course SST's rather than conventional airliners as BBJ/ABJ's.

To me, Aerion seems the only realistic pax supersonic that looks like a serious project, also though slower than Concorde, this does avoid many issues that would mean something unrealistic today, no need for variable intakes, skin temp/enviromental demands lower, using a well proven powerplant that is at least of a reasonably high bypass.
No need to try and build an engine that has to be a high bypass fan for take off/landing, subsonic cruise, then turns into and engine suitable for acceleration through the sound barrier then supercruise at Mach 2.


User currently offlineCygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1135 times:



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
what do you type think of the feasibility of them operating for major Legacies

I don't think we'll see them with major legacies, but we may see them in a new elite airline. Kind of a reinvention of Legend, but operating from small convenient, fields that see very few delays.



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1127 times:



Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 6):
I don't think we'll see them with major legacies

...careful with the wording: notice I didn't say "with", "by", nor "in" Legacies.... but specifically "for" them-- i.e., PrivatAir, Air Elite, etc.


User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1121 times:



Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 6):
no need for variable intakes, skin temp/enviromental demands lower

The intakes were not a very complex system. Just a pair of intake ramps creating a shockwave focussed on the intake to slow air down to M0.7, with two computers and backup manual inching switches to operate them should the computers fail. It's the kind of thing a FMC would do today.

The temperature demands could certainly be met with current materials technology.

I want the Aerion to succeed - but I want it to go up to Mach 2.0. At now, it's a serious paper design, but no more serious than the Avion de Transporte Supersonique Futur better known as Alliance. I think for airlines that have already operated a very convenient M2.0 airline service - it would be very difficult to market a new and slower service to the same customers. How would market it?

I could bet you Air France wouldn't be interested in anything supersonic these days, unless market forces dragged them kicking and screaming to play catch up. BA I think is much more progressive thinking - and that's why it did much better with the Concorde service.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13166 posts, RR: 78
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1096 times:

The intakes on Concorde were a VERY complex piece of engineering.
They also consumed a lot of maint man hours.
http://www.concordesst.com/powerplant.html
True, modern computing/electronics, have come on in leaps and bounds since the early digital sets fitted as part of the Air Intake Control System, even so, on a civil jet, such a system is a big ask.

While we would all like to see any new SSBJ match Concorde in speed, but practicality deems otherwise.
It does not take big speed increases to seriously affect structure and systems, Concorde was designed for Mach 2.2, in service, this was pegged at just over Mach 2, since the extra temp. generated could in time, cause more issues later, simply put, 10 minutes more at Mach 2 on a LHR-JFK, or maybe 10 years less service at Mach 2.2, the former of course being the wise choice.

[Edited 2008-01-07 11:35:14]

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1071 times:



Quoting Cpd (Reply 8):
The intakes were not a very complex system.

 laughing   laughing   laughing 
LOL, say that one again... certainly brightened my day!

Quoting Cpd (Reply 8):
and that's why it did much better with the Concorde service.

...the fact that the market for high yield USA-LHR is several times larger than that of USA-CDG, didn't exactly hurt either  Yeah sure


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