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Why No First Class For US Airways Express CR9's?  
User currently offlineAA767LOVER From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2007, 609 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9868 times:

I am wondering why US Airways Express doesn't market First Class availability on CR7 or CR9's? More so, I think that the CR9 would be better candidate for the First Class cabin installation in US Airways Express flights because of the length of the aircraft. Lots of business flyers on the Eastern seaboard, and I'm sure they would love to have that option available to them, a quieter cabin to chat with colleagues they fly with, or maybe higher tier members of Star Alliance could get more tier points even on shorter flights if F was available just as much on a 733/734/319/320/321 as on a CR9.

They could offer it also on their E170, E175 and E190 jets too!

This is just my thoughts. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a hot market though.


J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineM180up From El Salvador, joined May 2006, 403 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9848 times:

Just dont want to sound harsh in here, but the point of being express is that they are only coach class, and they are not operated directly by the airline but operated by other airline in behalf.

They would have to be operated by the airline to have first class, I find also a lot of guys complaining about Mesa product, they are the ones operating the CR9, I just dont think US would like them operating first class.

Just my 2 cents.  twocents 



Werner from SAL
User currently offlineRW170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9833 times:



Quoting M180up (Reply 1):
the point of being express is that they are only coach class

Actually the point of being Express has nothing to do with class, it has to do with flying smaller aircraft at a lower labor cost to communities that can't support mainline service.

Quoting M180up (Reply 1):
They would have to be operated by the airline to have first class

Tell that to United Express and Delta Connection.



319/320/321/712/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/763/CR2/CR9/DH8/135/145/170/175/190/D9S/D94/D95/M82/M83/M88
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8912 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9826 times:

US Airways is all about getting revenue - getting 86 fare paying customers on the CRJ-900s most likely provides more revenue that 70 seats on the plane with F being mostly upgrades.

Many other airlines have scope clauses on their RJs limiting the number of seats on them, but this does not appear to be the case with US Airways...thus they can operate them in an all-coach layout.

As for regionals with first class, it's becoming a more popular trend. Mesa does operate RJs with First Class with their DL CRJ-900s (operated by Freedom) and I think with United Express and their CRJ-700s. All depends on what the carrier really wants - these planes generally operate with only one regional at a time (there are some exceptions out there such as some Shuttle America EMB-170s that are just plain white with a blue tail that can be used for both DL and UA flights; same with the SkyWest EMB-120s that are not in United colours).


User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9825 times:

Can't speak for the Ejets but HP used to have a F class section on the cr9s that flew in the express fleet.. after a couple years they removed the section and installed extra coach seats citing that it was revenue negative to maintain the F class...


Why do I fly???
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9821 times:

Weren't these CR9s initially delivered with F seats? Isn't that the reason for the window/seat misalignment?

Quoting M180up (Reply 1):
Just dont want to sound harsh in here, but the point of being express is that they are only coach class, and they are not operated directly by the airline but operated by other airline in behalf.

Tell that to United, Delta, and Northwest. Lots of United Express aircraft (some CR7s, E70s) have F (and E+). NW's and DL's CR9s have F.

Quoting M180up (Reply 1):
They would have to be operated by the airline to have first class,

Why? Is this something in the America West or US scope clauses?

Edit: Argh! All of my points were addressed by posts made between reading the thread and posting. Oh well.

[Edited 2008-01-06 20:39:50]

User currently offlineAA767LOVER From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2007, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9809 times:

Well put! Don't forget NW's Mesaba is also operating First Class on their CR9's. Anyways, those planes look good, and contrary to what most think, your comfort level is really subjective. Even as a big guy, I can fly YYC-PHX on a CR9 and be more comfortable than on a 737 from YYC-YVR on the old CP Air or even Westjet. Odd enough huh? Still, I would appreciate the GoFirst option. It is not necessarily that a airline operate it that can have F. Air Canada is an exception where its' CR7's are integrated into the fleet just as their E75 and E90s are, and contain Executive Class. United has F on a regional? I thought it was just Economy Plus.


J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
User currently offlineRW170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9806 times:



Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 6):
United has F on a regional?

Yeah, on the Shuttle America E-170's. Not sure about any of the other Express carriers.



319/320/321/712/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/763/CR2/CR9/DH8/135/145/170/175/190/D9S/D94/D95/M82/M83/M88
User currently offlineM180up From El Salvador, joined May 2006, 403 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9787 times:

I know other carriers have regionals flying first for them, I think I couldnt express myself clearly, I just dont think US Airways would let one of the regionals operate first class for them, not because of any clause.
If they wanted first class I think they would do it on the express flights operated by the airlines in the US Airways Group: Piedmont or PSA.



Werner from SAL
User currently offlineBahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1824 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9787 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 3):

Many other airlines have scope clauses on their RJs limiting the number of seats on them, but this does not appear to be the case with US Airways...thus they can operate them in an all-coach layout.

US has similar scope clause. The only regional partners that can fly aircraft more than 70 seats have to be wholly owned regionals: PSA and Piedmont. In this case, the aircraft are PSA 's.



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineRW170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9782 times:



Quoting Bahadir (Reply 9):
US has similar scope clause. The only regional partners that can fly aircraft more than 70 seats have to be wholly owned regionals: PSA and Piedmont. In this case, the aircraft are PSA 's.

That's incorrect. Republic Airlines (not wholly owned) flies Embraer 170's and 175's with 76 and 86 seats operating as US Airways Express. Mesa also flies regionals with more than 70 seats.



319/320/321/712/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/763/CR2/CR9/DH8/135/145/170/175/190/D9S/D94/D95/M82/M83/M88
User currently offlineM180up From El Salvador, joined May 2006, 403 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9773 times:

Quoting RW170 (Reply 10):
That's incorrect. Republic Airlines (not wholly owned) flies Embraer 170's and 175's with 76 and 86 seats operating as US Airways Express. Mesa also flies regionals with more than 70 seats.

Yes, Mesa is operating the CR9 in the west coast.

Edit: as they replied they also operate in the east coast. They were originally based only in the west coast but some of them were transferred to the east.

[Edited 2008-01-06 20:59:14]


Werner from SAL
User currently offlineRW170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9750 times:



Quoting M180up (Reply 11):
Yes, Mesa is operating the CR9 in the west coast.

They also fly them on the east coast.



319/320/321/712/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/763/CR2/CR9/DH8/135/145/170/175/190/D9S/D94/D95/M82/M83/M88
User currently offlinePHXmd80 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9737 times:



Quoting RW170 (Reply 7):
Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 6):
United has F on a regional?

Yeah, on the Shuttle America E-170's. Not sure about any of the other Express carriers.

on UA express, all ejets and all crj-700, regardless of operater, have F class.

www.unitedexplus.com

PHXmd80


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9707 times:



Quoting AA767LOVER (Thread starter):
They could offer it also on their E170, E175 and E190 jets too!

The EMB-190 does offer First Class.

Quoting M180up (Reply 11):
Yes, Mesa is operating the CR9 in the west coast.

There are more than a few on the east coast as well.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23225 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9687 times:



Quoting M180up (Reply 1):
Just dont want to sound harsh in here, but the point of being express is that they are only coach class, and they are not operated directly by the airline but operated by other airline in behalf.

You have to separate two reasons that carriers put F on RJs, I think. For a carrier like NW, it's as much about scope clause issues as anything. When they were operating RJ-85s, they had the same number of F seats as a 320 simply in order to have the number of seats low enough to comply with their pilot contract.

For a carrier like UA, it's about revenue generation, and UA markets Ex-Plus very, very hard. UA does a ton of product differentiation (P.S., Business 1, Ex Plus, Ted), and with the possible exception of Ted, it works. However, that does not mean that simply throwing F on an RJ is effective. It makes economic sense for some carriers and doesn't make economic sense for others. IMO, the fact that we haven't seen a lot of carriers change their minds (either pro-FC or anti-FC) is telling. AFAIK, no carrier has placed F on an RJ only to subsequently remove it.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9672 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
It makes economic sense for some carriers and doesn't make economic sense for others. IMO, the fact that we haven't seen a lot of carriers change their minds (either pro-FC or anti-FC) is telling.

I believe it makes sense for some ROUTES and not for others.

A CR9, which usually doesn't serve MCO or LAS, often hits business markets. At PVD or RDU or something, first class makes a difference to premium frequent fliers. An airline like NW or US is employing the CR9 to replace prior mainline capacity on such routes.

So I believe NW made the smart call on this, with 76 seat CR9 including First Class. US should have done that, and someday I believe they may switch. Customers do not enjoy an 86-seat CR9 experience, and would likely prefer the NW experience. 10 extra seats may come in handy, but those platinum customers should come first. A business route needs an F cabin in today's market.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23225 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9665 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
So I believe NW made the smart call on this, with 76 seat CR9 including First Class. US should have done that, and someday I believe they may switch. Customers do not enjoy an 86-seat CR9 experience, and would likely prefer the NW experience. 10 extra seats may come in handy, but those platinum customers should come first. A business route needs an F cabin in today's market.

It's a scope clause issue at NW as much as anything... IIRC, mainline must operate anything above 76 seats.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9532 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
AFAIK, no carrier has placed F on an RJ only to subsequently remove it.

Yes. HP did it.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
At PVD or RDU or something, first class makes a difference to premium frequent fliers. An airline like NW or US is employing the CR9 to replace prior mainline capacity on such routes.

No, US is largely deploying the E90 to those places, with First Class service, not so much the CR9.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9479 times:

There are a few UAX CR7s that don't have F, but as far as I know, they're trying to convert them all to having First Class and E+.

-A



What now?
User currently offlinePgtravel From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 446 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9358 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 5):
Weren't these CR9s initially delivered with F seats? Isn't that the reason for the window/seat misalignment?

I don' t know that the CR9s actually had F class, but the CR7s did. Originally, YV was going to operate the CRJ and the CR7 for HP. They started taking delivery of the CR7s with F, but then they did an about face. They decided they didn't want the CR7s anymore and only wanted CRJs and CR9s. The CR7s went to the UAX operation, and I flew at least once on a UA/YV CR7 that had the F seats from the HP operation in them. (For awhile, those were operated with F/Y and no Y+).

The determination was made that HP could make more money with all Y seats onboard, so they did it.


User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9272 times:

US scope permits Express carriers to operate an unlimited number of aircraft up to 86 seats (this is the least restrictive of all legacy carriers scope), that's why there's no F class. Back when HP had F on the CR9, it was a 74Y/6F setup. Now the idea is to put as many seats in as possible.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23225 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9244 times:



Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 21):
Now the idea is to put as many seats in as possible.

Why have they decided that this is the best way to go?

Quoting A330323X (Reply 18):
Yes. HP did it.

What was the timing of that? Was it related to the merger or prior to the merger?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9123 times:



Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 21):
US scope permits Express carriers to operate an unlimited number of aircraft up to 86 seats

That's not at all true.

Only 93 large RJs (E70/E75/CR7/CR9) can be flown per the US/ALPA Transition Agreement.

(It also doesn't matter if they're outsourced to Mesa or Republic, or if they're kept in-house at PSA.)

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
What was the timing of that? Was it related to the merger or prior to the merger?

It was several years prior to the merger.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9099 times:



Quoting A330323X (Reply 23):
That's not at all true.

Only 93 large RJs (E70/E75/CR7/CR9) can be flown per the US/ALPA Transition Agreement.

Thanks for the correction. My mind was on the former HP/West scope clause.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
Why have they decided that this is the best way to go?

From my own experience, about 90% of the time the people sitting in front were getting it for free (FF, day of upgrades, etc...). I think the cost per seat mile was probably reduced by adding 6 more seats as well.


25 Cubsrule : I'm not persuaded that selling day-of upgrades is really such a bad economic deal. To install 9 F seats on a CR9 at reasonable pitch, US reduces tota
26 AlexPorter : By the way, the CRJ9s aren't the only RJs at NW to have first class, as the new Compass E175s also have it. Back when they had the RJ85s those had fir
27 Ca2ohHP : We were told internally at the time that HP was able to generate more total revenue per flight by pulling the F seats. Also, those aircraft were prim
28 HPAEAA : Problem is, when I was there, it was all the elites, there were usually never any left for sale..
29 GSPSPOT : To me, it should be an "either you do it, or you don't" proposition. I understand US trying to push its LCC idea, but then, why offer FC on mailine a/
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