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NW Build Up In IND After Terminal Complete?  
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3254 times:

Heard a crazy rumor today, can't say I've got much to substantiate it though.

Rumor has it that when the new terminal in IND is complete, NW is interested in building up their operation there drastically, at the expense of MEM. The rumor went so far as to say that almost the entire mainline operation of MEM would be moved to IND and MEM would be left as mostly an airlink focus city.

Anyone heard anything like this? IND is really close to DTW, but seems a much better city to hub in than MEM.

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

This rumor has been around for a few years now, starting around the time when NW built up their IND focus city.
Like most rumors in the industry, there is no solid basis to support this claim.

First of all, a vast majority of MEM is already flown with Airlink. A good portion of the markets that are mainline out of MEM already have some type of service from IND (mainline/Airlink).

The new terminal doesn't change anything. As you said, IND is too close to DTW (and even MSP) for that matter to become a viable connecting hub. Any attempt at such would canabalize DTW. NW will add & subtract from IND as they see fit to serve the O&D needs of the airport.

You can argue that the primary reason for NW's initial build-up at IND was to keep the LCC's from gaining another foothold in the Heartland, the bread & butter region of NW's domestic operation. IND was part of a larger strategy, but in the end was the really the only successful market out of the bunch.

NW will continue to do just that - maintain a large enough presence to keep a hold on the primary business & leisure markets out of IND. They are too entrenched at MEM to simply pick up and move to IND. The only reason MEM can support such an operation is due to its legacy.


User currently offlineBAKJet From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
The new terminal doesn't change anything.
Yes it does. It will have a better customs facility, more gates and I could be wrong, but I believe it will have a Worldclub, or whatever NW calls their lounges. I doubt that IND will get all, or even most of MEM's NW mainline, but I think that NW will definently increase their operation at IND when the new terminal opens.

[Edited 2008-01-07 11:26:49]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2922 times:



Quoting BAKJet (Reply 2):
Yes it does. It will have a better customs facility,

What does that change? The FIS facilities at both MEM and IND are drastically under capacity now.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
The only reason MEM can support such an operation is due to its legacy.

...and, arguably, due to its relative geographic isolation from the NW strongholds at DTW and MSP. IND-BTR isn't going to support 2 daily mainline flights.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLHboyatDTW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2898 times:

cue the comments of a flight to AMS

in 3...2...1

 duck 


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2897 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Thread starter):
Heard a crazy rumor today, can't say I've got much to substantiate it though.

What is the source of the rumor?

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
The new terminal doesn't change anything. As you said, IND is too close to DTW (and even MSP) for that matter to become a viable connecting hub. Any attempt at such would canabalize DTW. NW will add & subtract from IND as they see fit to serve the O&D needs of the airport.

It is a non issue. The new terminal doesn't provide enough capacity for NW's IND operation to cannibalize DTW. If they 20 mainline flights a day from DTW it wouldn't really even been noticeable. I'm not sure NW will have enough gate space to pick up 20 additional flights. What will get added will likely be Compass stuff to markets that are a little too small for current mainline stuff. No matter what happens it won't impact DTW.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
What does that change? The FIS facilities at both MEM and IND are drastically under capacity now.

The FIS is a joke at IND because their is no jet bridge. Thats the issue.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2890 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
The FIS is a joke at IND because their is no jet bridge. Thats the issue.

Doesn't BDL FIS lack a jet bridge? Seems like NW doesn't think it's an issue...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2879 times:



Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 4):
cue the comments of a flight to AMS

No thanks. Not tonight. I have a headache. lol.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
Doesn't BDL FIS lack a jet bridge? Seems like NW doesn't think it's an issue...

I have no idea.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2847 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
Quoting Flyf15 (Thread starter):
Heard a crazy rumor today, can't say I've got much to substantiate it though.

What is the source of the rumor?

Just a pilot buddy of mine that flies the red-tails. Pilots are horrible with rumors too, so I'm not banking much on it.


User currently offlineBAKJet From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2827 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
Doesn't BDL FIS lack a jet bridge? Seems like NW doesn't think it's an issue...

I believe it does. But I've finally been convinced that BDL does have a little more reason for a flight to AMS than IND*.

*But IND still has alot of reason see my thread -IND Service to Europe-is it possible (don't know how to post a link to a thread)

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 4):
cue the comments of a flight to AMS

in 3...2...1

there you go. Big grin I'll probably turn this thread into an IND-AMS thread tomorrow.  Smile


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2818 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
Just a pilot buddy of mine that flies the red-tails. Pilots are horrible with rumors too, so I'm not banking much on it.

I had heard the same type of rumor but that was based on pre bankruptcy rumors. Right now NW has 8 jet bridges. They place 2 jets at 4 of the jet bridges basically giving them 12. I'm not sure if they'll be able to do that at the new terminal. Have you seen IND in the morning the way it is now? There are red-tails everywhere. I think I've seen as many as 17 of them in the morning. For any significant expansion NW will have to lease I'm thinking 12 to 15 gates at the new terminal. I don't think they are going to make that kind of financial commitment here. The new terminal would be nice. It would help their image when you compare it to MEM. The new concourse would be more DTW-like. But I don't know where they would send flights to that would make up the kind of numbers that have been passed around in the past. At best they keep SEA year round and add PDX, SAN and bring back AUS. Off the top of my head I can't think of where to even place 20 flights right now. I'd probably have to get creative and really stretch things especially if we are talking mainline.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineMke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2465 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2811 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
Doesn't BDL FIS lack a jet bridge? Seems like NW doesn't think it's an issue...

I'm guessing by FIS you mean the international arrivals terminal at BDL? In that case, the international terminal at BDL does have a jetbridge.

Anyways back to the topic at hand...I could see NW adding more service to IND (Any chance for MKE-IND!?) but I don't think at the same time that MEM will get any cutbacks.



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineRW170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2796 times:



Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 11):
Any chance for MKE-IND!?

Probably not since Midwest Connect already flies the route and can be covered by a codeshare.



319/320/321/712/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/763/CR2/CR9/DH8/135/145/170/175/190/D9S/D94/D95/M82/M83/M88
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

This is really tough.

Keep LAX 2x daily.
Keep SFO 1x daily.
Keep SEA 1x daily.
Keep DEN 1x daily.

That would keep 4 mainline year round.

Take LAS to 2x daily.
Take MCO to 3x daily.
Take TPA to 2x daily.
Start 1x to SAN
Start 1x to PDX
Start 1x to PHX

That is 6 new mainline flights. So we are up to 10. Really 6 + 4 seasonal converts to year round. Thats all I can think of. Pinnacle or Compass service could add to that.

What would be doable? DFW - 2x, CLT - 2x, AUS - 2x, MSY - 1x, YYZ - 1x

Extreme stretches: BNA, JAX

That is about the best I can come up with and keep it under their LCC type plan they run out of IND. The pax would be heavy o/d but adding those frequencies and destinations would increase connection opportunities which would make IND a great reliever for DTW in the event of bad weather. But thats as far as it would go. Again many of those I listed would be pushing it as far as being able to fill the seats and break even. Unless NW can get some good cargo contracts to help supplement the routes.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2787 times:



Quoting RW170 (Reply 12):
Probably not since Midwest Connect already flies the route and can be covered by a codeshare.

So far the codeshare is a one way deal. You can book NW flights from IND on YX's website. But you can't book YX flights from IND on nwa.com.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2768 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Start 1x to PDX

I think if you want an idea of what might work for NW at IND, you should look to AA at STL. While St. Louis is larger than Indianapolis, WN is much bigger at STL than at IND, and AA has a lot of frequency on many routes; NW would be able to have somewhat less frequency. I highlight PDX because PDX is a rather glaring hole in AA's west coast route map ex-STL, and I've looked at numbers on that route some and it's just too thin to work. I can't imagine IND is much different.

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):

What would be doable? DFW - 2x, CLT - 2x, AUS - 2x, MSY - 1x, YYZ - 1x

Extreme stretches: BNA, JAX

Sounds like someone's been looking at the YX route map for a number of those cities... seriously, I think those 'doable' cities are mostly doable, but I wonder about BNA and JAX. I know WN flies IND-JAX, but it's a really oddball route, and BNA-IND is probably too short/thin for NW to try. It would work well 2 weekends a year, but that's true for a lot of cities in the southeast...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineNwAflyer07 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

Building up IND at the expence of MEM dosent seem to make sence. As it is, NW has DTW and MSP which are, in my opinion, a bit close togeather considering the magnitude of operations there. Not to mention they must be pretty expensive hubs with all the costs incurred due to the winter weather (de-icing, delays, extra fuel usage for longer taxis, ground stops, holding patterns, diversions, etc...). Two, close northern hubs is enough. NW has the north (dtw/msp), midwest (msp/ind/mke), east (dtw), and south (mem) covered nicely. What they need is a more western focus city sort of like DL's SLC. But, then again, NW execs and marketers know better than i do so i'll stand corrected if im wrong.

User currently offlineMke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2465 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2752 times:



Quoting RW170 (Reply 12):

Oh that's right, I forgot about the codeshare.



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2738 times:



Quoting NwAflyer07 (Reply 16):
Building up IND at the expence of MEM dosent seem to make sence. As it is, NW has DTW and MSP which are, in my opinion, a bit close togeather considering the magnitude of operations there. Not to mention they must be pretty expensive hubs with all the costs incurred due to the winter weather (de-icing, delays, extra fuel usage for longer taxis, ground stops, holding patterns, diversions, etc...). Two, close northern hubs is enough. NW has the north (dtw/msp), midwest (msp/ind/mke), east (dtw), and south (mem) covered nicely. What they need is a more western focus city sort of like DL's SLC. But, then again, NW execs and marketers know better than i do so i'll stand corrected if im wrong.

I think MSP and DTW serve two different operations for NW. I think both markets have big O&D, especially DTW, that this market is the primary gateway hub for NW. Many European routes and a few flights to Asia depart from this hub if I am not mistaken. MSP is mostly a domestic function, kinda like what CLT is to US. There are, I think I would say, "token" international routes out of here to Europe, but again, DTW is the primary international hub, while MSP is domestic.

Regarding the winter months, MSP and DTW don't seem to have the traffic and congestion that airports along the NE corridor experience on an almost day-to-day basis, but heck, I could be wrong about that.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2726 times:



Quoting NwAflyer07 (Reply 16):
Not to mention they must be pretty expensive hubs with all the costs incurred due to the winter weather (de-icing, delays, extra fuel usage for longer taxis, ground stops, holding patterns, diversions, etc...).

Not any worse than the others. Much better than ORD.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2726 times:



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 18):
Regarding the winter months, MSP and DTW don't seem to have the traffic and congestion that airports along the NE corridor experience on an almost day-to-day basis, but heck, I could be wrong about that.

Absolutely correct. DTW and MSP both function surprisingly well even in relatively poor weather. Recent runway additions at both airports just make them better.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2686 times:



Quoting NwAflyer07 (Reply 16):
Building up IND at the expence of MEM dosent seem to make sence.

It does in a way. I mean if you are going to provide o/d from IND versus feeding people into MEM it makes sense. MEM and IND will have one huge advantage over MSP and DTW and that will be taxi times. But thats it. The new IND will be a MEM/DTW hybrid. MEM taxi times and DTW type concourses. NW isn't going to take mainline out of MEM and make IND into a hub. That won't happen. Forgetting where IND sits physically in the NW network it just doesn't have the terminal space to handle the traffic. It really is designed perfectly for the type of operation NW has here. A legacy/lcc blend.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
Sounds like someone's been looking at the YX route map for a number of those cities

Actually no I haven't been to the route map. Those came off the top of my head.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineAmtrakGuy From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2675 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 13):

While there are many RJ and hopefully E-jet, I wonder if I could make a connection flights in IND?

I remember two years ago, I could save almost 100.00 if I made the connection flight. NWA has changed all flight schedule since then. Now I can't find any connection flight on nwa.com.


User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2667 times:



Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 22):
I remember two years ago, I could save almost 100.00 if I made the connection flight. NWA has changed all flight schedule since then. Now I can't find any connection flight on nwa.com.

try multi-city search with a stop in IND. It might work...



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

They seem to offer more connections during slower months. Its harder finding them during the summer. They really don't need to offer it. The loads out of IND are good.

Try MCI-MCO on June 19-26th. You'll see connection opportunities there.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
25 MAH4546 : Expansion? I wouldn't be surprised if they start cutting back at IND in 2008 if fuel prices don't improve. I think it will be general trend for airlin
26 Indy : With rising fuel prices that would be the absolute worst thing to do. Why on earth would they do something that increases their fuel costs? P2P servi
27 SNCntry32 : The Metropolitan Airports Commission (MAC) and DTW both run a pretty tight ship during the winter months. I think anyways. It takes a lot to slow dow
28 MAH4546 : It doesn't increase their fuel costs. It cuts them. They can cut routes. It's not like they will replace the capacity. Domestic airlines have already
29 IndyWA : Keep in mind that the new terminal isn't going to be much bigger than the current one..and if everyone else keeps the same number of gates, there won'
30 Indy : How does flying a passenger more miles cut fuel costs? If I fly IND-DTW-SAN I go 231 miles further than if I flew IND-SAN. Its 72 miles further going
31 Indy : It will have 6 new gates and I think double the square footage. The greatly reduced taxi times and fuel hydrants at each gate should speed up the tur
32 MAH4546 : You are looking at this way too simplistically. In the end, it cuts costs, especially because I don't think it's as if they would move the capacity e
33 Indy : When you are getting great loads and you have improved taxi times it is that simple. And if you change now you will have to double handle the passeng
34 PSU.DTW.SCE : Indy, MAH4546 is correct on is statement. As for right now, IND is relatively safe from this but if it continues to be a problem or if IND's yields de
35 Indy : If they were to cut service it would be to the benefit of FL. But I do disagree with your fuel logic. If fuel costs are higher the best way to minimi
36 Chase : Yes. I flew #498, MSP-IND yesterday, and we were delayed an hour. The captain made an announcement that an IND-MCO flight would be held since 12 pax
37 Steeler83 : Off topic, but I guess it would be the end of PIT in this regard. US only has RJs for the most part out of there anymore... Back to the topic, I supp
38 Indy : I personally wish NW would pull those CRJs from here. I can't stand flying in them. They are just too cramped. I can't wait to give one of the e-jets
39 PSU.DTW.SCE : If a) passengers are willing to pay a premium and b) enough to cover the segment cost on an RJ The economics start change, and some of the potentiall
40 Post contains images Steeler83 : I had the privilage of flying on an E170 between PHL and PIT a couple of times. They're a very nice bird for an RJ.
41 Post contains images Indy : Maybe for you . If I am flying IND-FLL and NW is running the CRJ on that route I will do one of two things. I will either make a connection in DTW an
42 RwSEA : The problem is that most of these cities would struggle to fill the plane on O&D alone. So in order to add all those destinations west of IND, you'd
43 Afitch7881 : BDL's FIS sure does have a jetbridge. The buidling was built in 2003 and has 1 jetbridge with the ability to 1 more. It handles 300 pax/hour with 747
44 Post contains links Indy : Here are the specs for the new international arrivals part of IND which opens with the new terminal in November. http://www.newindairport.com/stats.sh
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