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Would A Chicago/Gary(GYY) Based Airline Work?  
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6564 posts, RR: 20
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

I know GYY has been used by a few “weirdo” carriers….Southeast, Sky Value, Hooters, Pan Aint….but they used GYY for a few flights to sun destinations.

I was wondering if an airline could have a focus at GYY. With flights to major destinations like PHL, EWR, MIA. LAX, SEA…….do what Midway did for MDW.

Say a business plan that would start with a few leased (at good rates) 733s. Not dirt cheap fares like Skybus, but reasonably low fares, say 21-day advanced $200 rt to MIA, or 3-day $480 rt.
Oh, and have a business class, not on the scale of SQ or EK, but more like FL.

This may be moot with oil at $100 a barrel, but if it were at $70-$75.

I cannot believe that an airport that is within 25 miles of the 3rd largest market’s centre could not support this.

Change the name to Greater Chicago Int’l Airport.

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Photo © Gabriel Savit - AirTeamImages



How about a name.

Air Loop

Quality Airlines

Heartland Airways

Windy Airlines

No ORDeal Airlines

Shitcago Airways

Obama Airlines

OK, some of those are real. Big grin


Now I understand the airport is in an industrial area. If you have a successful airline, the airport , in turn, will be successful. I could see hotels popping up nearby in the next 3 years, and also food chains. Wasn’t there literally a cow pasture around IAD in the 60’s & 70s? And if successful, who thinks AA or UA will show up, suddenly eager to "support" the small underused airport?  Yeah sure


Could it happen?
Will it work?



Your 2 cents?


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3491 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

The Gary area has no real draw to it. There is not growth of any kind. People aren't flocking to live there or start businesses there. It's a stagnant, dead place. For an airport to thrive, there needs to be a commercial draw to it. With that commercial draw also comes plain tourist traffic. I'm sure the profitable clientèle are already taken care of by ORD and MDW. Nobody has told me yet in life that they want to go to Gary, IN to look around. Come to think of it, that is such a bad and hilarious idea at the same time, I might just have to go explore Gary, IN next time I'm in Chicago

I can't imagine that there is a profitable base of people who want to go all the way out to GYY to catch flights. Definitely not your business crowd, who buy the higher fares which make an airline profitable in the first place. At the end of the day, it's hard to make it on $99 seats alone. I'm sure the Jerry Springer Show may have something lined up, but that is not what pays the bills for an airline.

Come to think of it - I wonder if GYY would work well as a Chicagoland freight hub. Package freight perhaps. Packages don't care if they fly through a rough part of town...

[Edited 2008-01-08 13:56:19]


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineRJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

MIchigan CIty, Valparaiso, Portage, Hammond, Whiting, Merrillville, Highland, and extreme Southern Chicago suburbs could all support such service!
But they cant keep bringing in Crap airlines or the airport will lose crediblity , if it hasnt already!


User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3456 times:



Quoting RJNUT (Reply 2):
MIchigan CIty, Valparaiso, Portage, Hammond, Whiting, Merrillville, Highland, and extreme Southern Chicago suburbs could all support such service!
But they cant keep bringing in Crap airlines or the airport will lose crediblity , if it hasnt already!

There are 1.8 million in this area closer to GYY than to MDW.

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 1):
The Gary area has no real draw to it. There is not growth of any kind. People aren't flocking to live there or start businesses there. It's a stagnant, dead place. For an airport to thrive, there needs to be a commercial draw to it.

People would not be flying to Gary, get over that idea. The city limits of Chicago are 4.5 miles west GYY. The Chicago Loop in a 30 minute drive. They would be flying to the Chicagoland area


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3450 times:



Quoting Acidradio (Reply 1):
The Gary area has no real draw to it. There is not growth of any kind. People aren't flocking to live there or start businesses there. It's a stagnant, dead place. For an airport to thrive, there needs to be a commercial draw to it. With that commercial draw also comes plain tourist traffic. I'm sure the profitable clientèle are already taken care of by ORD and MDW. Nobody has told me yet in life that they want to go to Gary, IN to look around. Come to think of it, that is such a bad and hilarious idea at the same time, I might just have to go explore Gary, IN next time I'm in Chicago

Gary doesn't need to be a draw, it wouldn't be a destination. Gary just happened to be the shit town that the airport sits in. The draw is from a 600,000 NW Indiana, SE Chicago person population to draw from. I am tired of people saying GYY will never be successful because Gary is such a hole. The area around MDW, LAX and EWR and most other airports are industrial areas or lower income areas. When was the last time you said you want to go to Newark to vacation? Does that stop you from flying to Newark to visit New York?

You are not going draw people from the North Shore but you may draw some from downtown and you will definately draw some from Chicago's south side including Hyde Park, Kenmore and South Shore neighborhoods. Of course that is in addition to the entire NW Indiana community.

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 2):
MIchigan CIty, Valparaiso, Portage, Hammond, Whiting, Merrillville, Highland, and extreme Southern Chicago suburbs could all support such service!
But they cant keep bringing in Crap airlines or the airport will lose crediblity , if it hasnt already!

Agreed!!!


User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3451 times:



Quoting United787 (Reply 4):
You are not going draw people from the North Shore

Probably Cubs fans anyway.  Smile


User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3444 times:

Gary is actually easier to get to than ORD and MDW durring periods of high road traffic. And, there are no 2 hour waiting periods on taxiways either (ORD).


"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23223 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3329 times:



Quoting Acidradio (Reply 1):
The Gary area has no real draw to it. There is not growth of any kind. People aren't flocking to live there or start businesses there. It's a stagnant, dead place.

Ever been to CLT, JAX, BNA, STL, or a host of others? Airports tend not to be in the happiest part of town... something about NIMBYs.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12148 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3320 times:
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Here is the problem that Gary is always going to face. The offerings from both ORD and MDW will always win out. Sorry that is just the way it is. Also any carrier that is currently serving ORD and MDW is not going to come into GYY just to have a presence, they will not dilute or want to effect yields they already have out of both ORD and MDW.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCrjflyer35 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 668 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3251 times:

Just because Gary is "close" to Chicago won't make it a big draw.....(think Peotone) I'd love to see something else popup, as I live in PHX, but have family in NW IN and in Western MI, and the Sky Value flights were crazy cheap, but it ain't gonna happen, not unless they want to drive to Rockford and catch Allegiant to IWA.


Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
User currently offlineNonRev From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 59 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3184 times:



Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
Could it happen?
Will it work?

Why not? Listen, if an airport is close enough to a Metropolis/Holiday Destination and an airline flys to/from where people want to go/come from and the fares are right, then sure it can work. Speaking from a European Standpoint, who would have thought, years ago, that services from STN/LTN would be taking share from LHR? Same for HHN from FRA. Charleroi from Brussels and pretty much any other airport that FR fly to. Also, additional services = additional revenue to put into better links to the city (I have to admit I don't know what's in place currently).

GYY, or any other regional airline would fall over backwards to get a carrier in there to operate, as such airport charges etc. could be reduced to next to nothing, new carrier (by & large) = lower costbase, this could work. Sure there will be other hurdles, but the right management team could make this potentially viable.

Although another low-co in the area could upset some of the existing Low-Co's operating into (expensive) ORD/MDW...

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
Your 2 cents?

Great post BTW, gets people thinking!


User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3158 times:



Quoting Crjflyer35 (Reply 9):
Just because Gary is "close" to Chicago won't make it a big draw

"close" ? The Chicago city limits are 4.5 miles west of GYY. The Loop is a 30 minute drive on the Skyway.

Quoting Crjflyer35 (Reply 9):
.(think Peotone)

Peotone is farm fields and a VOR not an airport. It is also 45 miles south of the Loop.

Quoting Crjflyer35 (Reply 9):
and the Sky Value flights were crazy cheap, but it ain't gonna happen, not unless they want to drive to Rockford and catch Allegiant to IWA.

Whats your point?? Skyvalue had very good load factors. They shut down due to other factors.


User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3146 times:



Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
Say a business plan that would start with a few leased (at good rates) 733s. Not dirt cheap fares like Skybus, but reasonably low fares, say 21-day advanced $200 rt to MIA, or 3-day $480 rt.
Oh, and have a business class, not on the scale of SQ or EK, but more like FL.

While I don't think the airline you're proposing would succeed, I actually think Gary would be a much better basis for something like Skybus than is Columbus. When you look at successful ULCC (with Ryanair being the paradigm), they got their start by offering extremely low fares to a nearby large population base. Even PeopleExpress started in the part of Newark airport that was the most like Gary (the North Terminal) and, for a season, was wildly successful until they got in over their head with Frontier and International flights. The reason, of course, was the draw of New York.

This is the problem I've always had with Skybus - the placement of their focus cities (not hubs, as they're quick to point out). I'd be more sanguine if they had started in Gary. But, as someone has already pointed out, the current price of oil probably mitigates against anything like that succeeding.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlineSqurt29 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

Don't forget that there's also easy, if not quick, rail transportation (South Shore Line) from downtown Chicago to very close to the Gary airport.

User currently offlineCrjflyer35 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 668 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3023 times:



Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 11):
Quoting Crjflyer35 (Reply 9):
and the Sky Value flights were crazy cheap, but it ain't gonna happen, not unless they want to drive to Rockford and catch Allegiant to IWA.

Whats your point?? Skyvalue had very good load factors. They shut down due to other factors.

My point is that even if load factors are great....if the business plan sucks, or if the flying is purely seasonal/leisure, an operation like that can't be maintained.

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 11):
.(think Peotone)

Peotone is farm fields and a VOR not an airport. It is also 45 miles south of the Loop.

Apparently you missed something, I was referencing the talk of building an airport in Peotone, next time I'll spell it out..........

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20020714/ai_n12473972

http://www.garychicagoairport.com/PressRelease_detail.asp?ID=117



Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2935 times:



Quoting Crjflyer35 (Reply 14):
Apparently you missed something, I was referencing the talk of building an airport in Peotone, next time I'll spell it out..........

Why would anyone find it necessary to convert farmlands to an airport when there is already a very capable airfield so close to the city center? It's a waste of time, money, and resources.

I think GYY could really work as a hub for a business-oriented airline. I mean, It's within 10 minutes drivetime difference from downtown to ORD. The case could be made to avoid lines, traffic, etc. Such a venture focusing on the business traveler would likely bring more respectable yields in and attract the attention of major air carriers.

They now have Skybus, so perhaps the new goal of the airport should be to attract substantial service to a major hub that is not easily drivable (i.e. ATL, MSP, DEN, etc). I think Cape Air will bring some attention to GYY from the major carriers.

Something like FL to ATL would be just what the doctor ordered, because you would get a mainline aircraft with a business class section. From what I understand, FL is very receptive to revenue guarantees and co-marketing adventures. FL, however, does have a major presence at MDW - but that doesn't stop them from serving FNT in respect to DTW.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12148 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2928 times:
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Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 15):
FL, however, does have a major presence at MDW - but that doesn't stop them from serving FNT in respect to DTW.

They served FNT for YEARS before they opened up shop in DTW. They have a solid base of loyal customers who prefer FNT and they will support them.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineScutfarcus From United States of America, joined May 2000, 407 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

Oh goody. One of my favorite topics.

Short answer - GYY has PHENOMENAL potential as Chicago's 3rd Airport. in fact, it is undergoing a small expansion to serve that purpose right now. The only ingredients missing are a reliable fast train link to the loop, and the cooperation of the State of Illinois who are reluctant to support something in Indiana. (For that matter MKE has similar potential).

It would be comparatively cheap to expand GYY and put in a Heathrow Express style train to the Loop. Doing that would make it as convenient as MDW and ORD for getting downtown and for those living on the far south side, a no-brainer alternative to O'Hare and a compliment to MDW. It's only stubborn state politics that is getting in the way.

If you want to learn about the asinine boondoggle that is the Peotone proposal, here's a link:
http://www.646industries.com/mt/beyond_s/archives/000002.html

Just my two cents!


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23223 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2891 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 15):
Something like FL to ATL would be just what the doctor ordered, because you would get a mainline aircraft with a business class section. From what I understand, FL is very receptive to revenue guarantees and co-marketing adventures. FL, however, does have a major presence at MDW - but that doesn't stop them from serving FNT in respect to DTW.

I think either DL or FL could do well with ATL service to GYY. I wouldn't call their presence at MDW "major" anymore. They're down to just a few routes outside of ATL and Florida, and MSP performs terribly (sub-50% loads and lots of connections much of the time).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCcrlR From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2874 times:
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Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):

How about a name

Jackson Airways

We start out with 5 aircraft with all the names of the Jackson 5 on the first 5 aircraft.

Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 15):
I think GYY could really work as a hub for a business-oriented airline. I mean, It's within 10 minutes drivetime difference from downtown to ORD. The case could be made to avoid lines, traffic, etc. Such a venture focusing on the business traveler would likely bring more respectable yields in and attract the attention of major air carriers.

This is similar to Porter Airlines. They are doing well and are planning to go to more destinations and the USA they will fly to as well.

If you looked at the slogans of the previous airlines that served GYY, they all say no lines, no hassles, no big airports, and low fares. Living on the South Side of Chicago and having access to GYY via the Skyway, Indiana Toll Road, and Cline Avenue there is no problem. It takes an hour to get there and may sometimes gets crowded driving there during certain times of the year and Gary is a nice city. It went through some tough times when businesses like the steel mills closed up but it is a good city and the people who work the airport are nice people. It all matters to the airport authority enticing the airlines to come and the airlines to see a way to get passengers to come there and make money on the routes there. You have to advertise the airport and the airline has to advertise its service and explain why GYY is a better alternative to MDW and ORD.



"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2866 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 15):
Something like FL to ATL would be just what the doctor ordered



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):
I think either DL or FL could do well with ATL service to GYY

ALT has been one of the top requested routes in surveys done for GYY


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23223 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2848 times:



Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 20):
ALT has been one of the top requested routes in surveys done for GYY

Doesn't surprise me. DL is up to 9 flights (all but 1 S5) on MDW-ATL now; based on that, I suspect GYY could support 4x CRJ/CR7.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

With Skybus' 2x GSO and Cape Air's likely 4x to IND, it looks like GYY will actually have more truly scheduled airline flights than ever before. (Someone please correct me if ProAir or PanAm had more than 12 flights a day)

User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2805 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 22):
Someone please correct me if ProAir or PanAm had more than 12 flights a day)

ProAir never flew to GYY You are correct that it would be the largest number of daily ops.


User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2798 times:

Question, how many flights can GYY handle? It does not look like there is that much room to park planes, etc.


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
25 Post contains images CygnusChicago : Maybe at 2am. Most of the time it is an hour plus drive. As for the Metra/South Shore line. Well, it runs far too infrequently. I appreciate what Gar
26 Cubsrule : With the Ryan construction done and the Skyway much better, I can't imagine many circumstances under which it would take an hour.
27 Intermodal64 : A Chicago resident's point of view: I've lived in Chicago for 12 years; I fly several times each month for business and pleasure. I would not consider
28 Cubsrule : Porter County is what, the second richest in Indiana? You need to look at the south suburbs in Illinois too; while Harvey and the like aren't very ni
29 MOBflyer : On their virtual tour, I see two main gates and atleast one secondary gate (2A). So there are three, maybe four gates. In a news article, I think rig
30 BravoGolf : The civilized world ends at the Illinois state line. If you would look you would see airport exit signs as well as airplane trailblazer signs.
31 Steeler83 : Would it be appropriate to add PHL to this list? Nearby oil refinery, the craphole of Chester just down I-95, other industrial wastelands nearby, etc
32 Post contains images Tornado82 : But if Porter Airlines were coming to "The Region" they'd have to go to VPZ not GYY. I'm sure a few people will figure this one out. Wrong. SBN is to
33 Intermodal64 : I guess I've been distracted by all of the visual noise along that corridor -- the smoke stacks, the electrical transformer stations every 100 yards,
34 Indy : In case I missed it where did this rumor come from?
35 United787 : Exactly. GYY already has a runway longer than anything at MDW. The basic infrastructure is already there!
36 MOBflyer : It's actually quite more than a rumor, it was mentioned in one of the newspaper articles regarding Skybus's expansion. All that was mentioned was the
37 Indy : I haven't heard a bad thing about Cape Air and their sales from the news reports seem to be doing very well. What you said about 4x daily would make
38 MOBflyer : GYY is blessed with connectivity to Chicago via road (in close proximity to the loop), rail (South Shore Rail Station very near airport, called 'Gary
39 SoBe : Those getting off the South Shore Line at Clark Road, a open platform in the middle of a residential neighborhood more than a mile from the airport m
40 Chase : Okay, I'll bite: 1) True. But what if fares were even less at GYY? (I'm not saying they necessarily would be) May not attract you, but would certainl
41 B757capt : Gary has 2 jetways in place at the current moment. Both have the room to hold a 757 at each, at the same time. There is room to use Jetway 1 for a 75
42 MOBflyer : Skybus passengers endure much more at SWF where there is much more of substantial distance to the rail that goes to NYC. Additionally, with service,
43 Post contains images Indy : I wouldn't call road connectivity in Chicago a blessing At least if you are the one doing the driving. If I were pick up my bag from baggage claim an
44 CcrlR : There is room to park planes but not near the terminal and you may need a tug to pull the plane to the gate or the plane taxi under its own power. Th
45 BravoGolf : Why would they have to go to VPZ??
46 Rampart : As was mentioned, ever look at EWR and its surrounding cities? No offense, but your argument is a good example of "myopic". How many airports support
47 DAYflyer : I think it all depends on who is running it and the business model employed. If Kelleher were running it, for example, sure it would work. Or how abou
48 Rampart : To really be like Porter Airlines, they'd have to operate out of Meigs Field! Oh well. -Rampart
49 Post contains images Steeler83 : True that... The title of "world's busiest" does not mean it's necessarily "the best..." Could anyone imagine what JFK or EWR with that title? That w
50 Post contains images United787 : Well said! I could see AA and/or UA operating from GYY in the future just as UA is doing successfully from RFD. Neither AA or UA have a presence from
51 Post contains links KarlB737 : "Skybus will have to have more destinations from Gary" Some airline observers have stated their perspective in an article in the Northwest Indiana Tim
52 B757capt : You obviously have no idea what your talking about. Suggest you re-read my previous post.
53 Acidradio : I guess the point that I'm trying to make from this is that lucrative business travelers from Chicago (which make an airline profitable in the first
54 Rampart : Sorry, you misread me. Nowhere in my post did I say EWR was a secondary airport. Ask CO, EWR is as primary as you can get. EWR, JFK and LGA are all p
55 Post contains links CcrlR : I actually saw your post after I added mine. I did not know you had that information. What I posted is from what I've seen there at Gary once in a wh
56 Tornado82 : It was a joke. VPZ, despite the ID making it seem like Valparaiso Airport, is known as Porter County Municipal Airport. Hence why Porter Airlines sho
57 B757capt : Got it,.... I'm sure if you PM BravoGolf he'll give you the "tour"
58 BravoGolf : DUH
59 BravoGolf : quote=CcrlR,reply=55]saw this video from Fox news Chicago about the service and they said that they can be able to add on just east of the terminal wh
60 Cubsrule : Both UA and AA have failed at MDW. Would GYY be any different? Hard to say...
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