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Pinnacle Sues Pilots  
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1520 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4564 times:

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/01/08/ap4508706.html

Quote:
Pinnacle Airlines Corp., a regional passenger carrier headquartered in Memphis, filed suit in federal court Tuesday, accusing its pilots' union of unnecessarily dragging out contract talks for three years.

And things heat up...


Long Live Memphis!
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4581 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4470 times:

Couldn't the pilots in turn say the company is negotiating in bad faith? Are they wanting a deadline where the pilots are legally obligated to accept whatever offer they were given? If it has taken three years it sounds like the two sides just aren't budging. It takes to sides to reach an agreement. Not one.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 788 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4422 times:

There is no way that this suit should go through. Just as management cannot be forced to make certain contract offers the pilots can not and should not be ordered to sign whatever comes their way. In the history of labor contracts three years isn't that long. We opened our talks early and I still don't expect to have an agreement until years after our amendable date. Obviously I will push to have an agreement in place on time but not at the expense of a decent labor contract. Further, if both sides end up in a deadlock eventually it goes to mediation. Considering the complexities involved this should take some time. Contracts aren't negotiated over night.

User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

Kinda sad when a company sues their own employees. I can't imagine many people are in good spirits there.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21804 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

I hope this gets thrown out. If Pinnacle wins, it's going to set a very nasty precedent.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineCaboclo From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3976 times:

What is it about the aviation industry that consistently brings out the very worst in people? That's a new low for humanity as a whole.


Freight dogs have more fun
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3921 times:
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Quoting Caboclo (Reply 5):
What is it about the aviation industry that consistently brings out the very worst in people?

All too often, it's a matter of management refusing to face certain realities. Realities like employees opting not to work below a certain standard of living.

In most cases, management would do well to adjust their own standard of living to more realistic levels. The disparity between management/executive compensation and that of their employees has reached ridiculous levels.

For example, fighting to maintain a standard of living in order to afford health insurance for one's family is not greedy. Fighting to maintain a standard of living that allows one to afford a third vacation home, at the expense of the aforementioned group, is.

The upside - in cases like this, the people in charge have a wonderful opportunity to lead by example. Adjusting their own levels of compensation would ultimately be a much more productive and sustainable solution than attempting to wring even more compensation from already depleted employee groups.

All it takes is normal levels of respect and lower levels of greed.  yes 

2H4



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User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3856 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
The upside - in cases like this, the people in charge have a wonderful opportunity to lead by example.

Do you actually believe that there is a proverbial snowball's chance of this happening at Pinnacle or any of the regionals or legacies who are their meal tickets? There are at least three major obstacles standing in the way: 1) corporate greed, 2) corporate greed, and 3) corporate greed -- on the part of both the people in charge at Pinnacle and the legacy airline who provides their meal ticket.

If there were even a remote possibility of Pinnacle's management leading by example in the manner implied, it would have happened long before now.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
I hope this gets thrown out. If Pinnacle wins, it's going to set a very nasty precedent.

Unfortunately, some rather nasty precedents have already been set. Such as U.S. airlines have learned that they can unilaterally break legal contracts with employees to which both parties have duly agreed; but woe be unto employees if they should even think about walking off the job (strike, if you prefer) in response to the company's court approved violation of contractual agreement. Pinnacle is simply taking already established precedent to the next logical step.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3833 times:
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Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 7):
Do you actually believe that there is a proverbial snowball's chance of this happening at Pinnacle or any of the regionals or legacies who are their meal tickets?

Touche. I suppose it's not as much an upside as a pie-in-the-sky daydream.  Sad

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3802 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
All too often, it's a matter of management refusing to face certain realities. Realities like employees opting not to work below a certain standard of living.

More often, it's a matter of employees refusing to face certain realities. Realities such as the market dictating the pay range for a skill set.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3778 times:
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Quoting TWFirst (Reply 9):
More often, it's a matter of employees refusing to face certain realities. Realities such as the market dictating the pay range for a skill set.

This implies executive management is powerless to influence a pay range for a skill set, which is certainly not the case.

I maintain that fighting to maintain a standard of living in order to afford health insurance for one's family is not greedy. Fighting to maintain the standard of living commonly enjoyed by current executive management, at the expense of the aforementioned group, is.

2H4



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User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4224 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3757 times:



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 9):
More often, it's a matter of employees refusing to face certain realities. Realities such as the market dictating the pay range for a skill set.

So, FO's making under 20,000 dollars a year and 24,000 dollars a year second year is acceptable?



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1618 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 9):
More often, it's a matter of employees refusing to face certain realities. Realities such as the market dictating the pay range for a skill set.

Same goes for management. If they can't make it work with the minimal wages they pay now they shouldn't be in business. End of story. It's the law of the jungle and it's the same reality you are referring to.

Contrary to popular belief, the employees are not getting rich and they are used extremely inefficiently. How do I know this? I work for a so-called "regional" carrier too.

Before they sue the employees maybe they should look at productivity already allowed by the contract? Are the pilots being used efficiently? I doubt it.

Many, many of our schedules are made for less than the contractual minimum. And very, very few are up to the contractual maximum. Start using the assets more wisely and then we can talk business. Until then it's just a sham.

[Edited 2008-01-09 11:18:35]


smrtrthnu
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3667 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 10):
This implies executive management is powerless to influence a pay range for a skill set, which is certainly not the case.

Oh they can influence them, but that doesn't mean the market will support that. If a 50% increase in wages could be instantaneously paid for by an appropriate increase in revenue, then that would happen... but it doesn't... and the comparison between upper management wages and line wages is comparing apples to oranges. I know it sucks, but the reality is management skills are worth more, whether you or anyone else believe that's fair or makes sense.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 11):
So, FO's making under 20,000 dollars a year and 24,000 dollars a year second year is acceptable?

Define "acceptable". Evidently the FO in question "accepted" the wage in return for employment. That's my definition of acceptable. Teachers make crap pay as well... IMO, teaching should be the top-paid profession in the country... but it isn't. Although one similarity is... both teachers and FO's aren't working a full 2050-hour year either.... so if you calculate the wage per-hour, it's higher. If labor became scarce in the airline industry, wages would increase, and the market would be forced to pay higher fares. But labor is plentiful, and market is putting downward pressure on line wages.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3636 times:
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DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 13):
Oh they can influence them, but that doesn't mean the market will support that.

Well, then, as management, it's their job to find ways to solve the issue. Constantly undermining employee groups addresses problems in the short-term, but it just creates even larger problems long-term. Creating and fostering an environment of animosity and disrespect does not benefit the long-term health of a business, and as managers, the long-term health of the business is their responsibility.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 13):
If a 50% increase in wages could be instantaneously paid for by an appropriate increase in revenue, then that would happen

Based on the priorities and management philosophies demonstrated by management groups year after year after year, I'm not sure it would. If their past decisions are any indication, that 50% increase in wages would be used to benefit themselves with little to no regard for their employees.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 13):
I know it sucks, but the reality is management skills are worth more

I've never argued that management skills aren't worth more. The problem is that management thinks they are worth so much more. There's a point at which their levels of compensation become so greatly inflated and out of tune with the sacrifices made by other employee groups that they lose all respect from the people under them.

It's not impossible to fix. Southwest execs are (last I checked) paid far less than their counterparts at other airlines. The spread between their pay and the pay of the rest of the employees isn't nearly as large, and the employees see and respect that. The resulting lack of animosity and hatred directly affects productivity and the bottom line. It's really not rocket science.

Even if upper-level management was worth the inflated compensation we're seeing at most of these airlines, their performance certainly isn't. For that kind of money, I would expect (as a shareholder) to see a cohesive, synergetic, productive, and respectful work environment.

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3587 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
Creating and fostering an environment of animosity and disrespect does not benefit the long-term health of a business, and as managers, the long-term health of the business is their responsibility.

Well NW has been around for what, 80 years? Their "environment of animosity and disrespect" hasn't yet done them in... and won't. Their overall market position/business model/route structure may. The long-term "health" of a business is primarily defined as its financial health and sustainability and the necessary management decisions supporting that unfortunately often clash with employee desires.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
Based on the priorities and management philosophies demonstrated by management groups year after year after year, I'm not sure it would. If their past decisions are any indication, that 50% increase in wages would be used to benefit themselves with little to no regard for their employees.

That's one P.O.V.... and one consistent with most union P.O.V.s.... of course, union management is completely selfless and doesn't have any self-serving agenda, right??

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
The problem is that management thinks they are worth so much more.

No, the boards do. And shareholders do. The pay scale starts at the top... and guess who determines that.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3549 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 15):
Well NW has been around for what, 80 years? Their "environment of animosity and disrespect" hasn't yet done them in... and won't.

At the same time, though, I'm willing to bet that environment hasn't maximized their potential with regard to efficiency and productivity.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 15):
The long-term "health" of a business is primarily defined as its financial health and sustainability

I agree....and one of the most, if not the most financially healthy and sustainable airlines happens to be the one with the best relationship between their management and work force. That's not a coincidence.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 15):
of course, union management is completely selfless and doesn't have any self-serving agenda, right??

No need to be sarcastic, TWFirst. Your overall maturity has, thus far, made you a really enjoyable person with whom to debate the issue.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 15):
No, the boards do. And shareholders do.

Well, my point was that the value of upper management is, in my opinion, greatly overestimated....particularly considering the working environments they've cultivated.

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3531 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 16):
At the same time, though, I'm willing to bet that environment hasn't maximized their potential with regard to efficiency and productivity.

Yes, and NW should be free to fire all the underperforming deadweight but can't because... well I think we know why.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 16):
I agree....and one of the most, if not the most financially healthy and sustainable airlines happens to be the one with the best relationship between their management and work force. That's not a coincidence.

Perhaps... but the fact that airline has a completely different business model and did from the beginning is not a coincidence either.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 16):
No need to be sarcastic, TWFirst. Your overall maturity has, thus far, made you a really enjoyable person with whom to debate the issue.

Who said I was being sarcastic... and are you calling me old?  Wink

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 16):
Well, my point was that the value of upper management is, in my opinion, greatly overestimated....particularly considering the working environments they've cultivated.

Angela Merkel agrees with you. I may too... but that's not going to get the Pinnacle rank and file a 50% increase in wages... or even 20%.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineD328 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3468 times:

Pilots are over worked and under paid in most cases, people need to realize this.
They pay so much to learn to fly, spend countless hours studying, days away from home and only to get raped by the companies they work for. The CEO's make ton's of money they waste on themselves, oh and the Million dollar bonus they decide to take every quarter if they want. I would like to any CEO of an airline to live in the life as a pilot for a year, I bet they would not make it.

Would you trust a doctor/dentist that makes 20000-24000 a year with your life? Hell even the sell out pro athletes will not even work for that little money; and they do absolutely nothing to the general public(some may give to charities and do community service, but I bet its only a few). Why should a pilot settle for that amount of money?
A pilot flying 50 pax a flight up to 6 times a day should be paid more having 300 people they are responsible for and for the risk they take everyday to carry very ungreatful people to where they "have" to be.

No pax care about their pilot or flight attendants they just want the cheapest fare they can find and then complain about the lack of service they get. Well they get what they pay for and I like hearing people complain if they don't get a first class product on a low cost carrier price.

What if your pilot went postal and decided on climb out or approach to fly the plane into the ground?

Next time you fly how about you say thank you to your cabin crew. I do every flight. I hate seeing the crew say good bye to pax and they just walk by and not even acknowledge them. People these days are just to into themselves to even give a crap about anyone these days.

Pilots should make more, it is simple as that. Another way to help the wages is a few airlines need to go away. Fares should be raised as it is a privilege to fly.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3426 times:
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DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 17):
Yes, and NW should be free to fire all the underperforming deadweight but can't because... well I think we know why.

I agree that the deadweight is a serious problem, but the reality is that the deadweight sees no incentive to go out of their way for a greedy and disrespectful company....and if the past is any indication, any efforts to improve will be largely ignored by the folks in charge.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 17):
Perhaps... but the fact that airline has a completely different business model and did from the beginning is not a coincidence either.

But that's the best part....respect doesn't care about route structure, equipment selection, or business model! The effects of treating your employees with respect, ending the greed, and leading by example apply equally to all companies!  yes 

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 17):
Who said I was being sarcastic... and are you calling me old?

Well, around here, when it comes to discussions of management and unions, respectful attitudes have a way of making one stand out from the crowd of airline-expert college students.  biggrin 

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 17):
but that's not going to get the Pinnacle rank and file a 50% increase in wages... or even 20%.

The wage increase would be great, but first, I'd like to see them bring working conditions and benefits up to the standard enjoyed by hourly workers at Starbucks.

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineDsuairptman From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3412 times:

I hope the pilots burn that s--- hole of a poor excuse for an airline all the way to hell


GEAUX SAINTS!
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23227 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3375 times:



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 7):
Pinnacle is simply taking already established precedent to the next logical step.

Perhaps, but they don't have a chance of succeeding (assuming, as the article indicates, that all they want is an injunction directing the pilots to bargain in good faith). According to management, the pilots aren't negotiating in good faith. There seems to be a growing consensus in contract law that a duty to negotiate in good faith does exist, but there is a problem with the relief 9E seeks. Injunctions are a form of equitable relief, and courts will generally decline to grant equitable relief to a party that has "dirty hands," meaning that it, too, has engaged in what the court considers "bad" (very loosely defined) behavior. I don't think 9E can credibly argue that they are blameless in this, and they are thus unlikely to get the injunction they seek.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2716 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3316 times:



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 13):
both teachers and FO's aren't working a full 2050-hour year either

What are the FOs working then?

Four 4-day trips a month at 75 hours time away from base each would be 3750 hours at work per year.

Please, enlighten us. Tell us how the FOs are not working a full 2050 hour year.


User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 940 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3203 times:



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 9):

More often, it's a matter of employees refusing to face certain realities. Realities such as the market dictating the pay range for a skill set.



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 13):
If a 50% increase in wages could be instantaneously paid for by an appropriate increase in revenue, then that would happen... but it doesn't... and the comparison between upper management wages and line wages is comparing apples to oranges. I know it sucks, but the reality is management skills are worth more, whether you or anyone else believe that's fair or makes sense.

We're not really talking about the economic position 9E management is taking. This whole thing of pilots making $20,000 a year or below is all ethics.

And to answer your economics question...First off, the revenue increase could not possibly be instanteous. That's not possible, as you said. Management would have to project how long it would take for revenue to increase and decide if it's worth it to raise wages. Which it probably would be...speaking in terms of opportunity cost, guess what not negotiating with their pilots cost them? Oh yeah, their contract for 17 of their aircraft, according to their lawyers. Hey, down the road that could be equal to the cost of if they had just paid the pilots more.

Yes, management gets paid more, and yes, that is inherent of capitalism, but this is America--we have to think beyond the scope of what CAN be done in the free market and start thinking about what SHOULD be done. 9E Management is being unethical and unreasonable with their pilots.

I am not saying we need to pay management the same as the 1st year FOs, but let's face the facts here, shall we? My sources (Yahoo Financials) say that from Q3 2006 through Q3 2007, Pinnacle has made a profit of close to $65 million, which includes the financial burden that Colgan has initially tendered. This is significantly more than other regional airlines have made recently. Yes, if 9E was doing terribly financially the pilots should be willing to make some sacrifices, but Pinnacle is running an efficient machine right now, and the pilots still picket.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3180 times:



Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 22):
Four 4-day trips a month at 75 hours time away from base each would be 3750 hours at work per year.

Illogical. The very nature of this profession is that you are doing something that moves you from one locale to another. What you do when you're out of the cockpit is your business (unless it affects your time in the cockpit... such as drinking... but that's not unique... I can't show up to work drunk either). "At work" = ass in plane. Sorry, but that's the nature of the beast... there was no bait and switch after you agreed to join your carrier. You cannot claim your expectations were misaligned. Truckers get paid for how many miles they drive (or some other similar structure). Similar for operators of other types of mass-transit machinery.... they get paid based on some metric of operating or moving the thing (bus, subway, etc.)... and you do too...not for picking up women in bars in Louisville on your layover.

If you have 75 hours away from base each 4-day trip, that's a lot of free time... plenty of time to easily generate some additional revenue through an online business or perhaps medical transcription. Even with three full-night's sleep at 8 hours each, that's 51 hours of free time.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
25 XFSUgimpLB41X : It if very obvious you have little to no understanding of the way a trip is built or the way a pilots schedule works...especially at Pinnacle. Pinnac
26 Flyf15 : Hahaha! Wow, that couldn't be more wrong. I average 95 hours of flying per month. I do roughly 60 legs per month. THE MOST IMPORTANT STUFF I do for a
27 Buddys747 : And who is usually on the boards ? Gee, I think usually execs from another company or other high ranking people, certainly not you or me! I read in t
28 D328 : Perfectly put!
29 Saab2000 : Well, even when my ass is in the airplane I don't always get paid. Anytime the door of the airplane is open I am getting paid a Per Diem of $1.50/hou
30 Aggieflyboi04 : In all actualty, a trip with 75 hours away from base for 4days with a avg of 12 hour duty days would only give someone 27 hour a free time and if do
31 TWFirst : Nope, I don't think that. Personally, I don't do work for which I don't get paid. If you choose to be in a profession where that's required... whose
32 Post contains images Saab2000 : Actually, I don't hate my job. What I hate is the ignorance that suggests that it is easy. I am not asking for much. But when I hear someone suggest t
33 Post contains images GoBoeing : TWFirst - Thanks for replying to my question. I do see what you were thinking but I must inform you that you are mistaken in many ways. There is not
34 TWFirst : SO... what's the real issue then? Pay rate/scale/structure? Or work rules/scheduling/efficiencies? If the latter, as it seems to me, then that's wher
35 2H4 : Well, for one, employee groups being forced to live up to their end of legal contracts while management weasels out of their end in one way or anothe
36 TWFirst : I see. So, can one assume you prefer the other option then... namely liquidation?
37 2H4 : It's false to assume that liquidation is the only other option. Unfortunately, it's an option for lazy management lacking in morals or decency. The p
38 GoBoeing : The primary reason I replied to the thread was to make it clear to you that pilots do indeed spend the full 2050 hours a year at work, and in fact mo
39 CBPhoto : GoBoeing, Amen to that, I could not have put it any better! Yet here I am waiting for call backs from regionals that do just those things, all to go l
40 2H4 : It may not be too late to ditch your loans and fly floatplanes in the Caribbean for the next few decades... 2H4
41 Cubsrule : A lot of other service sector industries are starting to see the light on this; I wonder if air travel will. It seems that few if any carriers have t
42 2H4 : Exactly....and it's not limited to service sector industries. Well, change of this caliber has to start at the top. It's just a shame that so many of
43 Cubsrule : I'm not sure I agree with you, actually. In the field I'm most familiar with (law), most of the change from a profit-centered mentality to a worker-c
44 2H4 : You make good points. I suppose what I'm getting at is that without a demonstrated effort from those at the top....if they don't lead by example, in
45 Cubsrule : Agreed, definitely. Management could make it happen if they wanted to.
46 CBPhoto : Hmmm.....actually not too bad of an idea!!
47 KaiGywer : So what do you think about pilots conveniently timing out right before takeoff? The plane was delayed and they were close to timing out, so we rushed
48 WingnutMN : You can't blame the pilots for timing out. You need to look at what happened throughout the day of that pilot or crew to see where to place the blame.
49 Cubsrule : It takes 2 to negotiate something in to a contract, right?
50 GoBoeing : I think you need more information about the schedule, the airport, EDCT times, weather en route and destination, flow control and departure fixes, AC
51 Flyf15 : If you are on a plane where the crew is timing out, especially a regional airline, be glad the flight cancelled. With the schedules we work, it can be
52 KaiGywer : The crew was trying to find a reason not to go. That's why 9E sent their station rep to the gate to make sure the plane pushed on time and to make su
53 BR715-A1-30 : Does anyone think that it won't be long before Pinnacle goes under? I mean, with the way they treat, and pay their crews, as well as some of the tacti
54 AirCop : Prime example = Mesa, which is why Pinnacle isn't going anywhere as long as the $$ continue to roll in from NW.
55 CV640 : Forget the arguments about how many hours a pilto works. A couple years ago Pinnacle FedExed us all a letter and copy of the contract they wanted us t
56 Fleet Service : I was going to respond to this tripe, but GB summed it up perfectly.
57 SNCntry32 : I have a trip with 6 coming up... Kai, if they timed out, they timed out. They just cant fake timing out. Crew sech sure as shit makes sure everyone
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NWA Pilots Victory Could Limit Growth For Pinnacle posted Tue Mar 7 2006 20:50:39 by KarlB737
Any Pinnacle Pilots Here? posted Thu Mar 24 2005 21:02:59 by Saab2000
OU Pilots Open Letter Complaint posted Sat Jan 5 2008 06:23:33 by TripleDelta
Any Qantas Pilots Here? posted Fri Dec 21 2007 13:52:47 by Christiaan
Opps - Pilots Given Nitrogen Instead Of Oxygen posted Sat Dec 15 2007 18:19:02 by Peh
AA Eagle Pilots: May Cut 250 Routes posted Fri Dec 14 2007 16:58:52 by BigGSFO
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
OU Pilots Open Letter Complaint posted Sat Jan 5 2008 06:23:33 by TripleDelta
Any Qantas Pilots Here? posted Fri Dec 21 2007 13:52:47 by Christiaan
Opps - Pilots Given Nitrogen Instead Of Oxygen posted Sat Dec 15 2007 18:19:02 by Peh
AA Eagle Pilots: May Cut 250 Routes posted Fri Dec 14 2007 16:58:52 by BigGSFO
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
Opps - Pilots Given Nitrogen Instead Of Oxygen posted Sat Dec 15 2007 18:19:02 by Peh
AA Eagle Pilots: May Cut 250 Routes posted Fri Dec 14 2007 16:58:52 by BigGSFO
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
Opps - Pilots Given Nitrogen Instead Of Oxygen posted Sat Dec 15 2007 18:19:02 by Peh
AA Eagle Pilots: May Cut 250 Routes posted Fri Dec 14 2007 16:58:52 by BigGSFO
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
Pinnacle Suspends AZO To MSP-To Hire/Train Pilots posted Sat Apr 7 2007 15:47:39 by KarlB737
NWA Pilots Victory Could Limit Growth For Pinnacle posted Tue Mar 7 2006 20:50:39 by KarlB737
Any Pinnacle Pilots Here? posted Thu Mar 24 2005 21:02:59 by Saab2000
OU Pilots Open Letter Complaint posted Sat Jan 5 2008 06:23:33 by TripleDelta
Any Qantas Pilots Here? posted Fri Dec 21 2007 13:52:47 by Christiaan
Opps - Pilots Given Nitrogen Instead Of Oxygen posted Sat Dec 15 2007 18:19:02 by Peh
AA Eagle Pilots: May Cut 250 Routes posted Fri Dec 14 2007 16:58:52 by BigGSFO
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
Any Qantas Pilots Here? posted Fri Dec 21 2007 13:52:47 by Christiaan
Opps - Pilots Given Nitrogen Instead Of Oxygen posted Sat Dec 15 2007 18:19:02 by Peh
AA Eagle Pilots: May Cut 250 Routes posted Fri Dec 14 2007 16:58:52 by BigGSFO
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
Any Pinnacle Pilots Here? posted Thu Mar 24 2005 21:02:59 by Saab2000
OU Pilots Open Letter Complaint posted Sat Jan 5 2008 06:23:33 by TripleDelta
Any Qantas Pilots Here? posted Fri Dec 21 2007 13:52:47 by Christiaan
Opps - Pilots Given Nitrogen Instead Of Oxygen posted Sat Dec 15 2007 18:19:02 by Peh
AA Eagle Pilots: May Cut 250 Routes posted Fri Dec 14 2007 16:58:52 by BigGSFO
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
Any Pinnacle Pilots Here? posted Thu Mar 24 2005 21:02:59 by Saab2000
OU Pilots Open Letter Complaint posted Sat Jan 5 2008 06:23:33 by TripleDelta
Any Qantas Pilots Here? posted Fri Dec 21 2007 13:52:47 by Christiaan
Opps - Pilots Given Nitrogen Instead Of Oxygen posted Sat Dec 15 2007 18:19:02 by Peh
AA Eagle Pilots: May Cut 250 Routes posted Fri Dec 14 2007 16:58:52 by BigGSFO
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
NWA Pilots Victory Could Limit Growth For Pinnacle posted Tue Mar 7 2006 20:50:39 by KarlB737
Any Pinnacle Pilots Here? posted Thu Mar 24 2005 21:02:59 by Saab2000
OU Pilots Open Letter Complaint posted Sat Jan 5 2008 06:23:33 by TripleDelta
Any Qantas Pilots Here? posted Fri Dec 21 2007 13:52:47 by Christiaan
Opps - Pilots Given Nitrogen Instead Of Oxygen posted Sat Dec 15 2007 18:19:02 by Peh
AA Eagle Pilots: May Cut 250 Routes posted Fri Dec 14 2007 16:58:52 by BigGSFO
Mandatory Retirement For 121 Pilots Now 65 posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:01:48 by Dispatchguy
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
Apperently Korean Air Is Using Unqualified Pilots! posted Wed Dec 12 2007 08:06:42 by KE086
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747
US Airways Sues State Of New Mexico posted Tue Dec 11 2007 02:43:17 by ABQ747