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ANA To Buy 30 MRJs (Mitsubishi Regional Jets)  
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8443 times:



Quote:
TOKYO, Jan 9 (Reuters) - All Nippon Airways (9202.T: Quote, Profile, Research) and some affiliated airlines are looking at buying about 30 regional jets made by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (7011.T: Quote, Profile, Research), Jiji news agency reported on Wednesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...sUtilitiesNews/idUST20167420080109

The market is getting crowded these days...


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37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2980 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8296 times:



Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
The market is getting crowded these days...

But it will be most advanced design when it does come out.
We'll see if Mitsubishi can finally market this thing or go to same way as the YS-11.

Also this makes ANA a launch customer for another aircraft.
Japan Airlines Group will probably follow suit. This is will probably mean a short life span for the Embraer 170s in JL colors, but unless the economy goes to the crapper, they will find good second-homes.


User currently offlineSirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 386 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8210 times:



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 1):
Japan Airlines Group will probably follow suit.

The MRJ70 will offer an 13% improvement in COC per seat over the EMB170, so it would make sense for JAL - especially if fuel costs are going beyond what we see now...what does not seem unlikely.
Also the MRJ saves a lot of money in noise fees, especially on intra-japanese flights.


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8144 times:



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 1):
Japan Airlines Group will probably follow suit. This is will probably mean a short life span for the Embraer 170s in JL colors, but unless the economy goes to the crapper, they will find good second-homes.

Yup. Would there perhaps be some negative effects for JL on the domestic market if they don't buy the MRJ?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineFlysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7781 times:

Are there any artist's concept of the jet anywhere?

User currently offlineYanksn4 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1404 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7712 times:



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 1):
But it will be most advanced design when it does come out.
We'll see if Mitsubishi can finally market this thing or go to same way as the YS-11.

I don't think the problem with the YS-11 was with marketing, instead it dealt mainly with the committment shown by NAMC and the government. From the start, NAMC was a total failure. With Mitsubishi, Fuji, and other aerospace companies in this group, no company took charge and committed the time and investment needed for the program. With research and development being scattered about and not centrally focused towards the project, there was no way for YS-11 to gain success. In addition, intra-government feuds in MITI and the Defense force left potential customers without a resource for post-sales support. Now has Mitsubishi / the Japanese government made any headway in correct the problems of the past is still in question. In order for the MRJ to be profitable, Mitsubishi is counting on the government to help bail out at least one-third of the cost for research and development. However, form rreports I've read, it seems there is still very much questioning by some politicans as to whether the program is viable. While one of the main arguments from supporters within the government for the project remains focused on that the project helps to keep Japan technologically ahead of China, in the end it is hard to say that this argument will win over critics. Although the technollogy Mitsubishi is using looks pretty good, there remains many doubts as to whether the proper support is there to win over foreign customers - the true measure of success for the program.

Matthew



2013 Airports: EWR, JFK, LGA, LIS, AGP, DEN, GIG, RGN, BKK, LHR, FRA, LAX, SYD, PER, MEL, MCO, MIA, PEK, IAH
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7677 times:



Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 4):
Are there any artist's concept of the jet anywhere?

http://www.mrj-japan.com/

Tom.


User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7678 times:



Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 4):



http://www.mrj-japan.com/main_e.html


User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1672 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7656 times:

This is the Lufthansa order for Dornier 728s, the Aeroflot/Sibir order for SuperJets, chinese airline order for the ARJ-21 etc. Market wise it is meaningless.

[Edited 2008-01-09 09:25:42]

User currently offlineFlysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7500 times:

Thank you ENU. That is a good looking bird!!!  Smile

User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6460 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7346 times:



Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 8):
This is the Lufthansa order for Dornier 728s, the Aeroflot/Sibir order for SuperJets, chinese airline order for the ARJ-21 etc. Market wise it is meaningless.

Could very well be... however, FD was in financial disarray and the ARJ is not "cutting edge"... not the MHI situation at all.

BTW, they had a segment on the MRJ on MSNBC yesterday.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7307 times:



Quoting ENU (Reply 7):

Where have I seen that plane before??? Hmmmmm...looks a bit like the E190.  scratchchin 



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineGeekydude From China, joined Apr 2004, 401 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7306 times:



Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 11):
Where have I seen that plane before??? Hmmmmm...looks a bit like the E190.

You beat me to it. I was thinking exactly the same thing.



FLIB 152 'heavy' low approach...Caution wake turbulance!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7074 times:

I sure hope Mitsubishi MRJ has a better safety record than the Mitsubishi MU-2!

User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13552 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7036 times:
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Congradulations to the MRJ! And to Pratt (for the GTF engine).  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 5):
Although the technollogy Mitsubishi is using looks pretty good, there remains many doubts as to whether the proper support is there to win over foreign customers - the true measure of success for the program.

I agree that export orders will determine the merit of the MRJ. But do recall it will be the only airframe in this size range with transcon range. How? An advanced supercritical wing (a la 'superjet' and ARJ) and those lovely GTF's  cloudnine 

But it will also be service and support. QR has asked for a bid... but I wonder if they'll be ordering any new airframes soon. (Just a hunch.) The range is the MRJ differentiator. Let's see how that works out!

Quoting Sirtoby (Reply 2):
The MRJ70 will offer an 13% improvement in COC per seat over the EMB170,

Do you have a link? I'd love to see a breakdown of the projected cost savings.  hyper 

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 8):
This is the Lufthansa order for Dornier 728s, the Aeroflot/Sibir order for SuperJets, chinese airline order for the ARJ-21 etc. Market wise it is meaningless.

Maybe... but other airlines have shown interest in the MRJ. Give it time.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10):
ARJ is not "cutting edge"... not the MHI situation at all.

I'm very disapointed in the ARJ proposal. I've yet to hear of anything other than its wing aerodynamics to make it 'stick out' in this crowded field. I've already explained in other threads why I'm not a fan of tail mounted engines (weight).

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 11):
Where have I seen that plane before??? Hmmmmm...looks a bit like the E190.

Naaa... its another A320 knock off!  Wink  duck 

On a.net I've been a big fan of the E-jet concept for a while. I see a demand for a small jet with good economy to provide frequency in many markets. The only 'ding' that I think the E-jets have is their engine. Seriously, everything else is a good fundamental design. (Yea... I know about the software issues... past tense, so lets move on.) In today's world of $96/bbl oil, the CF-34-8/10 is a bit dated. Before the E-jets were launched Pratt saw a large opportunity in that market. After they were launched, Pratt still (obviously) sees an opportunity in the 'large regional' market.

So I'm excited to see this order. I'm going to admit I would be twice as excited if this order had been announced with export launch customers. I'm a big believe in using 'rules of thumb' to evaluate airframes. An airframe needs over 400 of one size to stimulate an aftermarket (both for the airframes and for airframe service). An airframe also needs to get into the hands of about 20 different airlines before the resale market becomes reasonably liquid. The E-jets have done that (for both 'rules of thumb'). Thus the MRJ has a slippery slope to climb. Can it be done. Heck yes. Easy? No.

Whom else is looking at orders in this size range? 9W? IT? Quite bluntly, India seems to be the most open market right now. I do not see a US opperator looking to order this size in 2008. Later? Sure. But the launch will have to be stimulate outside North America. That makes the job a little tougher.  Sad Don't get me wrong, I really want the MRJ to do well. But Mitsubishi has to know that China will keep its market effectively closed... So this will be an Asia/Europe launch.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineTwincommander From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6426 times:



Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 11):
Where have I seen that plane before??? Hmmmmm...looks a bit like the E190.

but be just as fun and easy to work on as the MU-2...


User currently offlineA380forana From Japan, joined Jan 2008, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6036 times:

Good News for the MRJ program...
When I visited them at the last Paris Air Show, I was thinking that the Japanese airlines could a little more back up this interesting program. This order is indeed nice news, as I was wondering if this aircraft would ever fly... This is the first step.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
there remains many doubts as to whether the proper support is there to win over foreign customers - the true measure of success for the program.

Mitsubishi needs definitely to find customers among airlines outside Japan.
This won't happen unless the politics "help" selling it outside as European or American do...
Moreover, the unit cost of the aircraft itself might be pretty high compared to Embraer or Bombardier, which won't attract airlines that only need good economics.
But the fact that this aircraft might the first "regional" size aircraft to fly transcon, that might obviously interest the business jet market, should Mitsubishi build a specific version.

Anyway, let's wish them a better success than YS-11...

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
I sure hope Mitsubishi MRJ has a better safety record than the Mitsubishi MU-2!

me too! Big grin That would 'nt be that tough!


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5853 times:



Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 5):
In order for the MRJ to be profitable, Mitsubishi is counting on the government to help bail out at least one-third of the cost for research and development.

I look forward to multiway fights at the WTO regarding regional jet subsidies.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
But Mitsubishi has to know that China will keep its market effectively closed...

Will be interesting to see if anyone takes China to the WTO over such defacto trade barriers.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineSirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 386 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5383 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
Do you have a link? I'd love to see a breakdown of the projected cost savings.

Sorry, no link! Just own calculations - but the numbers are close to what Mitsubishi is claiming.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
I'm very disapointed in the ARJ proposal. I've yet to hear of anything other than its wing aerodynamics to make it 'stick out' in this crowded field. I've already explained in other threads why I'm not a fan of tail mounted engines (weight).

Forget the ARJ, at least the -700. Too heavy! But let's see if they are really doing something good with Bombardier on the -900, then they could have an interesting "family", together with the C-Series...although the -900 would need a much better engine to compete.


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6460 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5287 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
I agree that export orders will determine the merit of the MRJ. But do recall it will be the only airframe in this size range with transcon range. How? An advanced supercritical wing (a la 'superjet' and ARJ) and those lovely GTF's

Yes, those lovely GTF's are responsible for at least 99% of the MRJ's capabilities...  Wink

BTW, there is a small cross-section view of the engine on the website.

I would perhaps also add the CFRP construction, only 4-abreast cross-section, and advanced systems, etc.  Smile

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
Do you have a link? I'd love to see a breakdown of the projected cost savings.

From the website...

"Advanced aerodynamics, weight reduction achieved by cutting-edge technology like composite technology, and a newly developed fuel-efficient engine all contribute to an approximately 30% reduction in fuel consumption compared with current products."

Quoting A380forana (Reply 16):
But the fact that this aircraft might the first "regional" size aircraft to fly transcon, that might obviously interest the business jet market, should Mitsubishi build a specific version.

They would have there hands full for a while without trying to break into the biz jet market which is even more difficult than the commercial market. IN addition, there would be some conflict with the GX series as MHI builds several GX components including the central fuse and wings, for example.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineGeekydude From China, joined Apr 2004, 401 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5269 times:



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 17):
Will be interesting to see if anyone takes China to the WTO over such defacto trade barriers.

Hopefully by the time this Japanese jet hit the market, the tariff imposed on imported regional jets will be substantially reduced. As far as I know, China has basically eliminated its tariff on large jets.

And speaking of trade barriers and WTO disputes, developed countries should lead by examples and not by bullying and lecturering others. Just to cite one example. the US and the European Union have both been subsidizing their agricultural sectors big time. This pretectionist practice basically prevents market access by many developing countries suffering from dire poverty whose livelihood heavily depends on exports of agricultural products. There are quite a few cases where the WTO ruled against the US, but we have yet to see the US seriously comply to any.



FLIB 152 'heavy' low approach...Caution wake turbulance!
User currently offlineSirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 386 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5265 times:



Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 11):
Where have I seen that plane before??? Hmmmmm...looks a bit like the E190.

If you look on the X-section in detail, you see that the MRJ does not have the double bubble profile. The main cargo compartment is in the aft. That saves a lot of drag because the X-section is smaller vertically, although the cabin is almost as wide as in the E-jets.


User currently offlineSirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 386 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5257 times:



Quoting Geekydude (Reply 20):
Hopefully by the time this Japanese jet hit the market, the tariff imposed on imported regional jets will be substantially reduced.

For historis reasons I doubt that a chinese airline will ever buy a japanese aircraft (an vice versa), no matter what the tariffs are...


User currently offlineGeekydude From China, joined Apr 2004, 401 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5248 times:



Quoting Sirtoby (Reply 22):
For historis reasons I doubt that a chinese airline will ever buy a japanese aircraft (an vice versa), no matter what the tariffs are...

You know things have never been that bad. China has been happily importing Japanese electronics, automobiles, heavy machinary, cartoons... you name it...for decades. So why not a jet this time?



FLIB 152 'heavy' low approach...Caution wake turbulance!
User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1672 posts, RR: 49
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5157 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10):
not the MHI situation at all

Correct, but this order in no way means that they have managed to break into the market with the MRJ - yet.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
Give it time

That's all I'm saying.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 17):
I look forward to multiway fights at the WTO regarding regional jet subsidies.

So do I. Embraer is a third party in the current Boeing vs Airbus spat over the 787 and A380. Reciprocally, it is very possible that the two bigs would enter this WTO knife fight as well (at least as third parties), since this plane threatens their product line (737/A320)...


25 Planemaker : I agree. However, with the new runways coming on stream in Tokyo over the next couple of years, and the increase in slots, I can see this order possi
26 Sirtoby : Right! Boeing is an advisor to Mitsubishi in that project. I talked to the Mitsubishi people in Paris and they confirmed that they won't go for more
27 Post contains images Lightsaber : I agree. But that has kept MHI into what is now a crowded field. But I agree that the new airports coming on line will drive demand for more RJ's. Wh
28 Flysherwood : Because they are building their own.
29 Post contains images Planemaker : Not really if you break down the competition's offerings vs the MRJ. Don't forget that Haneda will have another runway operating in 2010 that will re
30 Post contains images Lightsaber : Thank you. I didn't realize the slot increase was that substantial. In general, I think this size of jet will dramatically increase the viability of
31 Connies4ever : It may get even more crowded if BBD launch the C-series.. I'd bet my left nut that marketing people are talking to either or both LH & NW on what cou
32 Planemaker : No it won't... the MRJ as has been pointed out would compete against the CRJ700 and CRJ900 or the E170 and E175. The CSeries would be up against the
33 Post contains images Lightsaber : They both have Pratt GTF's, so where do I lose? But as Planemaker notes, they compete in two different size classes. I think they'll both do well. Th
34 Aussie_ : If the range is that amazing, it would seem like a good fit for the Australian market - open up more trans-con, trans-tasman and pacific island opport
35 Sirtoby : Range is not THAT great - up to 2200nm for the -70, 2000nm for the -90. Although these numbers were for the required engine SFC. And as the SFC of th
36 Connies4ever : According to the BBD website, Cseries range for both models is 2,700 nm. for comparison purposes with the MRJ. So it may be better suited for ops in
37 Planemaker : No, the C130 goes up against the 73G while the C110 goes up against the 736.
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