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Questions On Pan Am In The 1980s  
User currently offlineTranStar From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 530 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6153 times:
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Just a few questions about Pan Am circa the 1980s:

1. Before Pan Am introduced the billboard titles, it utilized a modified logo on its 747s that had a broader cheat-line and larger titles that the original delivery colors. When was this modified livery introduced. Also, they stopped painting the nose-cones of the 747s, I assume that was a cost-cutting measure?

2. What were their cabin colors in the 747s like in the 1980s. I flew them in 1991 (727 from IAH-JFK-IAH), and I believe it was corporate blue. But was that the case in the 1980s for the 747s? I have seen timetable inserts that show a patterned seat cover, but they are in black and white so I cannot tell color differences.

Would appreciate any Comments.

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6107 times:

I first saw the broader cheatline at SFO in Dec. 83 on a 747.

PA had nosecones painted cream/tan on some of their 747s in 77/78. But they went back to the "painted tip" all the way until 1986.

Seat colors in 1983:

First Class seats all red or all blue then dark blue leather in 1986

Clipper Class All grey with grey/blue pattern......1985 seats in upper deck all royal blue

Y class seats either all blue/red/orange seats


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

You'll find some videos of PA's F and Y cabins here:

http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/PanAm/Menu197.html


User currently offlineDc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Dtw interesting link. In the '89 clip you'll see Clipper Beacon Light at the gate. Boy was that plane a lemon!! I had two mech delays with that ex AA 747.
Both delays lasted hours and the first which occurred in June'84 i saw #3 blow a huge shaft of flame when reversing at FCO. I sat in Clipper Class and was looking right at the engine when it went.
That plane had to be PA's hangar queen.


User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5852 times:

Very interesting link indeed Dtwclipper.

I remember a PA timetable or magazine insert in which they announced the retrofitting of their entire 747 fleet with new and wider seats in First and Clipper Class and the new "superbins" the larger bins on each side of the cabin (now standard on all 747 versions).

However in both videos there are still the old standard 747 bins both in the center as well as on the side.

I thought all of PA's 747's were retrofitted by 1987/88.

Does anybody know something about this?

Best regards

L1011Lover


User currently offlineTranStar From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5787 times:
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How many of the 747s ultimately got the billboard? All of them?

My confusion from my memory that the Lockerbie 747 still had the cheatline in 1989. I guess it took quite a while to get the fleet painted to the billboard look.

Also, what was the SCD designation mean. The Lockerbie was a 747-100SCD. what did that mean?


User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3761 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5731 times:
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Quoting TranStar (Reply 5):
I guess it took quite a while to get the fleet painted to the billboard look.

It probably did. The billboard livery was unveiled in 1985 with the delivery of the first Airbus A300 and A310 which were new at that time. After the sale of the Pacific Rim routes to United, Pan Am didn't have quite a large fleet, the DC-10's, L-1011's and 747SP's all left the fleet at that time. Only one 747SP was repainted in the new livery. Like you say, in late 1988, the 747 that was involved in the Lockerbie disaster still had the cheatline with the thin Pan Am titles.
I also remember seeing in 1988 a 727 in the old cheatline livery.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5640 times:



Quoting TranStar (Thread starter):
1. Before Pan Am introduced the billboard titles, it utilized a modified logo on its 747s that had a broader cheat-line and larger titles that the original delivery colors. When was this modified livery introduced.

The revised titles were introduced in the mid 1970s. The titles with this scheme were also less angular than in the delivery scheme:

Old Scheme:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Garrard



Mid 70s Scheme:


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Photo © Ken Rose



In 1977, KISS chartered a 747SP for their Japan tour - Pan Am gave the aircraft a special name:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



The wider cheat line was adopted in the early '80s:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © M.Oertle




Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10699 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5583 times:



Quoting TranStar (Reply 5):
How many of the 747s ultimately got the billboard? All of them?

My confusion from my memory that the Lockerbie 747 still had the cheatline in 1989. I guess it took quite a while to get the fleet painted to the billboard look.

Also, what was the SCD designation mean. The Lockerbie was a 747-100SCD. what did that mean?

To answer your questions:

Almost all PA 747s carried the Billboard livery in the end. Only one or two were still in the old livery when the airline shut down. In 1988, when the Lockerbie desaster occurred, about 10 Jumbo Jets were still in old colours. If you send me your email-address I can post you a jpg or pdf depicting the whole, 38-strong PA 747 fleet at the time of the Lockerbie desaster.

The Lockerbie Jumbo still carried the wide cheatline when it was downed.

SCD means Side Cargo door. About a dozen were converted in 1986-89, as much as I know paid for by the Government because Pan Am promised to provide these aircraft in case of national emergency. Strange is that some aircraft which were converted still carried the old livery afterwards. The airline was so financially desparate already that only the area around the freight door was painted!


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5560 times:

There was also this "test" billboard livery.




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Photo © Bill Sheridan



User currently offlineDc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5510 times:

I flew on one without the billboard scheme from LGW-MIA in Aug '91. By then the morale of the entire staff was at a new low.

User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5461 times:

Some more F and C pics.



User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5430 times:



Quoting TranStar (Reply 5):
How many of the 747s ultimately got the billboard? All of them?



Quoting Dc863 (Reply 10):
I flew on one without the billboard scheme from LGW-MIA in Aug '91. By then the morale of the entire staff was at a new low.



Quoting NA (Reply 8):
Almost all PA 747s carried the Billboard livery in the end. Only one or two were still in the old livery when the airline shut down.

This appears to be one of the PA 747s without the billboard livery at the time of their shutdown.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5265 times:
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Quoting TranStar (Reply 5):
How many of the 747s ultimately got the billboard? All of them?

I am fairly confident of this list of 747s that never got the billboard livery:

747-100:

N653PA Clipper Pride Of The Ocean (wide blue cheatline)
N725PA Clipper Mandarin (wide blue cheatline)
N731PA Clipper Ocean Express - left fleet late '80s (wide blue cheatline)
N734PA Clipper Champion Of The Seats (wide blue cheatline)
N748PA Clipper Crest of The Wave - in another interim livery of wide blue cheatline BELOW windows
N755PA Clipper Sovereign of The Seas - left fleet late '80s (wide blue cheatline)

747-200:

N724PA Clipper Fairwind - same interim livery as N748PA
N729PA Clipper Wild Wave (wide blue cheatline)
N730PA Clipper Gem Of The Ocean (wide blue cheatline)

747SP:
All except one were in the old livery when they were sold to UA.


User currently offlineDc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5216 times:

It seems that the wide cheat was applied to the ex SIA and ex AA 747s that PA received.

User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1985 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5133 times:

I heard from my friend that Pan Am first B742 or 741 had 2 x 4 x 3 seats in the Y class section. Is that true?


The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5120 times:



Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 15):
I heard from my friend that Pan Am first B742 or 741 had 2 x 4 x 3 seats in the Y class section. Is that true?

Yes, all early 747s including Pan Am's had 9-abreast Y class seating (3-4-2 from left to right). By the end of the 1970s almost all of them had been converted to today's standard 10-abreast 3-4-3 layout. The original 9-abreast seating was very spacious and comfortable. It was comparable to the original 2-4-2 layout on DC-10s and L1011s during their early years of service, which later became 2-5-2.


User currently offlineEastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5001 times:

I flew SCL-EZE-MIA on PA 747 on Y as a kid back on 1988. All seats were blue, with Pan Am logo on them. Actually we got bumped from Eastern as their DC-10 did not come in that day from MIA and EZE.
I was treated like a king as a kid. Flight almost empty on SCL-EZE leg, then it got more crowded on the EZE-MIA sector.



AA will Rise Again!
User currently offlineArgonaut From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2004, 422 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4962 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 8):
SCD means Side Cargo door. About a dozen were converted in 1986-89, as much as I know paid for by the Government because Pan Am promised to provide these aircraft in case of national emergency.

 checkmark 

I think the programme was referred to as the Strategic Reserve Air Fleet (or something like that), and that it also included some TWA 747s. IIRC, the a/c involved also had strengthened floors to enable them to carry cargo on the main deck, plus localised airframe strengthening (and, no doubt, stronger u/c) to cater for the higher weights. The pay-off for Pan Am and TWA was presumably that in effect the work extended the life of some of the earliest 747s at no cost to the airlines other than down-time.

The Lockerbie a/c happened to be one of the toughened airframes, which is interesting in its own way.

I don't know if the Strategic Reserve Air Fleet concept (converting a/c at gov't/military expense in return for committing them to military transport use in time of war/emergency) still exists.



'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4898 times:



Quoting Argonaut (Reply 18):
I don't know if the Strategic Reserve Air Fleet concept (converting a/c at gov't/military expense in return for committing them to military transport use in time of war/emergency) still exists.

It's Civil Reserve Air Fleet (CRAF) and yes it still exists. Following description from USAF site:
http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=173


User currently offlineArgonaut From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2004, 422 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4876 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
It's Civil Reserve Air Fleet (CRAF) and yes it still exists.

Thanks! The memory cells ain't what they once were  blockhead 



'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
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