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Pardus/Bethune Say DL/NWA Too Messy  
User currently offlineLowecur From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 585 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12605 times:

Pardus along with Bethune as advisor feel a DL/NWA airline merger would attract too much criticism from both regulators and unions to be viable. Even though this combination could save $1.5B with the closing of CVG/MEM, an approx $600M savings through the merger of DL/UAL would transition much smoother. This from todays NYT:


"Delta was urged in November by a large shareholder, Pardus Capital Management, to seek a merger with United. Pardus argued the two carriers would save $585 million a year by combining. Pardus said a merger with Northwest could save $1.5 billion a year, largely by shutting two hubs.

The most likely candidates would be the Memphis operation of Northwest and the Cincinnati operation of Delta. But doing that inevitably would attract political and union opposition. Thus, Pardus favored a deal with United.

Whatwe were doing is trying to make something that is civilized, said Gordon M. Bethune, a former Continental Airlines chief executive who is advising Pardus."

I guess Pardus/Bethune would advocate a DL/UAL merger as they wouldn't need to close any hubs.  Smile

[Edited 2008-01-11 06:12:31]

203 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4676 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12485 times:

Nothing like an unbiased statement  Yeah sure


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12468 times:
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Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 1):
Nothing like an unbiased statement

Exactly. Being a benifactor of the hedge fund that stands to make millions in a less practical merger



Made from jets!
User currently offlineLowecur From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12443 times:

Does Bethune actually believe that a DL/UAL combination is viable without shuttering some hubs? I think he feels that let's get the merger done and then we can shutter some hubs slowly as the economic toll would make it inevitable at some point. But the same can be said for DL/NWA.

User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12392 times:

I guess a DL/CO merger would also amount to closing the EWR or JFK hubs. Fleet wise it would make more sense though. Or a DL/AA merger. But that would create an unbelievable mega-airline. (not that the DL/UA would be small).


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12214 times:

DL and UA would create a far too large airline and would likely be rejected by the DOJ.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineFrontierflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12217 times:

I thought the whole purpose of consolidation was to save money. The airline business is "messy", if you can't handle the heat, don't get in it. Even rosy WN not to long ago was looking to shed older higher payed employees through buy outs. What about SLC DEN in the event of a merger with UA, who goes or do they keep both? I understand the concern for the folks at CVG and MEM, it's just reality. World War 3 is raging at SFO, IAD, Chicago area, and the atom bomb is about to fall on DEN, does DL really want that? MSP is so far imune to threats from LCC, DL has FL in ATL at bay with little chance of the likes of WN coming in. Its going to be messy no matter what happens.

User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3483 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12151 times:

Anyone who actually listens to Pardus about their favorite merger candidate between NW and UA is sipping something. The synergies from a DL/NW merger are almost three times those of a DL/UA tie-up, not even taking into account the redundancy of IAD/JFK, ORD/CVG, and DEN/SLC. They think DL/NW won't get regulatory approval but DL/UA will? Pure lunacy.

Jeremy


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5685 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12113 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 4):
I guess a DL/CO merger would also amount to closing the EWR or JFK hubs.

JFKwould be the one to go, Newark's Terminal C and associated infrastructure CO has built around there is far larger than DL's operation out of the old Pan Am Worldport.

Quoting Frontierflyer (Reply 6):
What about SLC DEN in the event of a merger with UA, who goes or do they keep both?

I think SLC would be shuttered in favor if DEN, if speaking in terms of size and ability to grow after the merger. However, SLC doesnt have a smuch LCC presence as DEN does.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 7):
They think DL/NW won't get regulatory approval but DL/UA will? Pure lunacy.

Does anyone else here think everyone is trying to put UA on the butcher block?



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12106 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):
DL and UA would create a far too large airline and would likely be rejected by the DOJ.

The DOJ doesn't get to "reject" anything. If they decide that the merger violates anti-trust laws, they can choose to file a lawsuit to stop the deal. For the record, the DOJ has never won a similar suit.

Usually it is the political quagmire that does these deals in. Some of that can be triggered by the lawsuit, but ultimately, the DOJ can't reject the deal. They can decide not to file suit, which pretty much clears the deal, however.

Frankly, given the DOJ's own standards, there is very little market concentration as a result of either of these deals. Size alone is not a criteria of market concentration and, therefore, not a concern of the DOJ. It is, however, a political concern. These deals will ultimately be decided on Capitol Hill, not by the DOJ.


User currently offlineRJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12045 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 9):
These deals will ultimately be decided on Capitol Hill, not by the DOJ.

And politicos from PA, WVA and MO will happy to give testimony to what happens after a merger...STL is still pissed and that guy from PA, jabs US Airways every chance he can get regarding PIT!.. Ohio and Tennesee wil chime in too, with the hubs pending shut down!


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12012 times:

This is starting to look more like:

DL takes NW/YX
CO takes UA
AA takes AS
US takes B6/F9
WN takes AirTran

Sprit, ATA, and Sun Country fold.

Checkmate... We all lose our traveling asses in terms of fares.


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11982 times:



Quoting RJNUT (Reply 10):
And politicos from PA, WVA and MO will happy to give testimony to what happens after a merger...STL is still pissed and that guy from PA, jabs US Airways every chance he can get regarding PIT!.. Ohio and Tennesee wil chime in too, with the hubs pending shut down!

Yeah, but airfares have fallen in argue that the consumer has really been hurt?

Of course where will be damage to someone of these mergers happen. But there is always damage to someone when a merger happens in ANY industry, The question is, does the proposed venture violate the law? If not, then only political pressure can stop it. I'm not sure the will is there this time. I'm not even sure most labor groups would oppose a DL/NW or DL/UA merger! If labor doesn't oppose, good luck with finding the support in congress to oppose.


User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11967 times:



Quoting Lowecur (Thread starter):
Pardus along with Bethune as advisor feel a DL/NWA airline merger would attract too much criticism from both regulators and unions to be viable.

I think they have it backwards. From a regulatory standpoint, very simply, the size of a UA/DL versus a DL/NW would tend to indicate regulators would have a bigger problem with UA/DL than NW/DL. Either one will be scrutinized heavily but at the end of the day, particularly in the western part of the country, a UA and DL merger would effectively eliminate a significant percentage of competition because Salt Lake City and Denver would no longer compete against each other as hubs and one (SLC) may go away completely. (Yes, the arguments about WN and F9 in Denver would offset this somewhat but the fact would be, UA and DL which are both the largest carriers in those two hub markets would now be one and the same. Not good for competition in the small to medium cities in the western US that currently have service through both DEN and SLC for connections.

As for the unions, NW has been set up for this and UA has not. NW has outsourced much of the maintenance, UA has not. NW has outsourced most of the stations, UA has not. Seems to me that it would be a lot easier for DL to assume in house many of the functions that NW outsourced than to add all the current UA employees. In essence, with UA, you have the Pilots, Flight Attendants, Ground Crew and Maintenance staff to combine. With NW, it is really just the Pilots and Flight Attendants since so much of the rest of NW functions have been outsourced. 2 large groups and 2 smaller groups are easier than 4 large groups. If Bethune was paid by anyone else, his recommendations would likely be different.


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3295 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11925 times:



Quoting Frontierflyer (Reply 6):
Even rosy WN not to long ago was looking to shed older higher payed employees through buy outs.



Actually it was any employee who had been at the company for 1 year or longer. It was geared more towards reducing headcount than it was at reducing the number of senior employees.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
This is starting to look more like:

DL takes NW/YX
CO takes UA
AA takes AS
US takes B6/F9
WN takes AirTran

Sprit, ATA, and Sun Country fold.

Checkmate... We all lose our traveling asses in terms of fares.

And just why are any of these mergers needed? I have a hard time believing that in a market the size of the USA that there isn't room for the current mega carriers and a number of niche airlines.


User currently offlineFFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11894 times:



Quoting Frontierflyer (Reply 6):
World War 3 is raging at SFO, IAD, Chicago area, and the atom bomb is about to fall on DEN, does DL really want that?

Frontierflyer, can you see the feds on your door already? That sentence of yours has a few key words that will alarm the government terrorist hunters, and their search-engines immediately. Hah.  Wink


User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11874 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):
DL and UA would create a far too large airline and would likely be rejected by the DOJ.

Care to explain what size has to do with anything?


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11779 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 14):

And just why are any of these mergers needed? I have a hard time believing that in a market the size of the USA that there isn't room for the current mega carriers and a number of niche airlines.

Because the long-term financial strength of the U.S. carriers is awful. And there is very little room to grow in a mature market. If U.S. carriers want to participate in the inevitable globalization of the airline industry, they need to get stronger FAST.

This isn't about the U.S. market anymore, this is about the world. If we don't look to the future, we get left behind. It's already happening. Look at the world's most dynamic carriers. They aren't American.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5685 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11680 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 17):
Look at the world's most dynamic carriers. They aren't American.

If you also look at said carriers, they dont have domestic systems nowhere near the scale ANY of the US airlines do, either.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11656 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 14):
Actually it was any employee who had been at the company for 1 year or longer. It was geared more towards reducing headcount than it was at reducing the number of senior employees.

Believe it was more Ten years, you had to have minimum 10 years or topped out pay scale I believe.

Reducing headcount sure, but more so the higher paid people, regardless of their senority.


But anyhow..so no official release about who's merging with who?!

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11631 times:



Quoting Stapleton (Reply 13):
If Bethune was paid by anyone else, his recommendations would likely be different.

Bethune is a talking head who will say anything his employers tell him to say.

Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 16):
Care to explain what size has to do with anything?

Yeah, cause my wife said size doesn't matter.


User currently offlineSpencerII From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11573 times:

Quoting Frontierflyer (Reply 6):
What about SLC DEN in the event of a merger with UA, who goes or do they keep both?

The scuttlebut is the SLC hub would go, the combined 2 would keep DEN as an Intermountain Hub.
My guess would be that F9, AS or FL or B6 would create a new hub in SLC if that should happen.
&

[Edited 2008-01-11 15:15:04]

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9449 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11560 times:



Quoting Lowecur (Thread starter):
Whatwe were doing is trying to make something that is civilized, said Gordon M. Bethune, a former Continental Airlines chief executive who is advising Pardus."

ok lets note (even though most on here think he is a god) anyone who says trying to save the employees is stupid(in the event of a merger).........i don't listen to him

to me Gordo=stupid (sorry to piss folks off)

(he said this when he tried to get CO and DL to merge but DL wouldn't have it because CO would be in control)

also note i like UA and DL if DL buys and sells off the UA name rights and keeps Atlanta HQ
if not then i say buy NW



yep.
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2391 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11550 times:

How much "smaller" would any combination get? How smaller is US/HP combined now? What hubs went? What cities got screwed and who stepped in?

Everyone talks about hubs going, but creating "huge" airlines. Were will all that hugeness go? If they stay huge, they will need more hubs, not less, or more point to point. All I can see are some smaller hubs being combined like CVG/MEM. But JFK/EWR? Customers are not going away and it's OVERcrowded already.

It's not about planes and airlines, it's about flying customers. Under what scenerio are a lot fewer people flying now and into the future?


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9449 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11539 times:



Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 23):
How much "smaller" would any combination get? How smaller is US/HP combined now? What hubs went? What cities got screwed and who stepped in?

i would say got screwed pretty dam good

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 23):
Everyone talks about hubs going, but creating "huge" airlines. Were will all that hugeness go? If they stay huge, they will need more hubs, not less, or more point to point. All I can see are some smaller hubs being combined like CVG/MEM. But JFK/EWR? Customers are not going away and it's OVERcrowded already.

ok wait what are you talking about JFK/EWR? look at CVG/MSP or CVG/ORD and SLC/DEN



yep.
25 TVNWZ : Who? How bad, overall? Nobody stepped in with more seats anywhere they cut back? What was the overall net results? I don't know, do you? Refering to
26 Okie73 : actually, Leo Mullin and Delta were trying to pull off that merger, and Bethune killed it when Delta would not make assurances they would protect the
27 Silentbob : If you consider the taxpayer to be a consumer, yes we have been hurt bailing out most of the majors.
28 DeltaL1011man : sorry i saw a article about it and it said both Leo and Ron were asked by CO and they said the same thing the current CEO so said and they is "Delta
29 N867bx : How about if NW buys DL.
30 DeltaL1011man : pointless who is asking there BOD if they can merge(aka buy) an airline (hint it aint UA or NW) (note its a buyout not a "merger" the US/DL deal was
31 N867BX : I think it makes DL look somewhat desperate to hook up with someone. Its really not a bad thing because I think the last legacies to merge will be th
32 WesternA318 : Perhaps even CO... I thought that was Ron Allen?
33 Okie73 : nope, Allen was gone by then. He may have been approached by CAL earlier, but when DL/CO were almost a done deal and it was shot down late at night i
34 WesternA318 : Oops...my bad!
35 WorldTraveler : There is also damage to the economy if airlines start bleeding again. It would be far better for the country for airlines to be allowed to combine in
36 LAXdude1023 : I can see them keeping one, but I doubt they will keep both. My guess is that ATL will remain the HQ, but the UA name would remain. Pardus has made i
37 SLCUT2777 : Wrong! SLC would be shuttered in favor of DEN. As I pointed out on another thread, DL right now controls any LCC growth at SLC since the facility is
38 DeltaL1011man : they will make a crap load off of DL/UA...........and as for the name i think if they offer them in a deal to say CO or US we would see a new UA and
39 Breaker1011 : Bethune disappoints and casts shadows over a very respectable history of leadership in the airline industry. Sad to know his will can be bought by the
40 SLCUT2777 : What Bethune is thinking more than anything is capacity reduction. Pardus also thinks this as well, and Doug Parker was thinking this with his propos
41 Silver764 : Pardus is just pushing what is going to make them the most money back the quickest. I haven;t looked at the numbers of which potential merger would be
42 Post contains links AirRyan : Other analysts say DL+NW makes the most sense and the two arguments I think that make the most sense for their merger would be that they both are alre
43 Jano : At that time Anderson was NWA CEO and Steenland was NWA President.
44 CALMSP : one would think an aquisition of AS would be much easier than that of such a large carrier as NW/UA/CO/DL/US. AS has something that many of hte legaci
45 B737100 : How about AA/NW? Route systems would mesh nicely, the labor part is another matter.
46 Jetlanta : Four hubs in the Midwest is not a nice mesh, either is MEM/DFW. The only thing this pairing offers AA is NRT slots.
47 Boeing7E7 : That was my point.
48 Jetlanta : Because the domestic market is not growing. It is fully mature and only expands at roughly the rate of the economy. If our companies are to expand th
49 Bucky707 : The two statements above are contradictory in my opinion. Why would you want to merge Delta and United in order to eliminate capacity when you know d
50 Lowecur : Are you correcting me?
51 DeltaL1011man : i will CVG or ORD,SLC or DEN and DCA or IAD(DCA is just a focus city for DL but the other airlines would cry over having both DCA and IAD)
52 Lowecur : Just what is it you're correcting?
53 DeltaL1011man : this:
54 Boeing7E7 : What? Perhaps the number of destinations are mature, however, as the demand between two points tied to a hub increases over time so too does the dema
55 Bobnwa : There has never been a merger in the US airline industry, ie: stock swap> They have all been buyouts.
56 FlyASAGuy2005 : Not with this adminsitration. I would come to believe that they are pushing for it now because any later, they will have to wait until the next guy i
57 Lowecur : If either you or the other person had bothered to see the smiley at the end of the statement, you should have understood it was a cynical afterthough
58 Lowecur : I don't want these guys insinuating that I agree with Pardus/Bethune, and that's why the smiley at the end of my statement. It's that simple.
59 KensukeAida : Well, an a WN fan, I'm hoping for DL+NW. It would mean UA will continue to wither on the vine and WN can sweep through DEN like a tornado. DL+UA would
60 WorldTraveler : Jetlanta has a great deal of experience and is absolutely correct in saying that the domestic market is mature. Not sure what you consult in but I su
61 Post contains links Jetlanta : You clearly have no idea what the concept of market maturity means. It does not mean there are no markets left or no growth left. It means that the d
62 SLCUT2777 : Which is exactly why I think DL/NW is a better merger. This capacity elimination part of the equation was a big keystone block of Doug Parker's argum
63 DeltaL1011man : which is what i was saying o my bad i thought you meant it
64 Post contains links KensukeAida : Okay, I'll bite. Even though you were addressing 7E7. Michael Boyd says you're full of crap: http://www.aviationplanning.com/Predictions2008.htm Scro
65 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : SLC will never become PIT, STL, or RDU. If DL/UA leaves SLC or even makes it a focus city someone will move in. F9 and B6 would be both be ideal canid
66 Jetlanta : I know Mike Boyd personally. His opinion is just that. Mine is mine. I objected to being preferred to as an idiot. And, by the way, a lot of people i
67 KensukeAida : B6 would be somewhat ironic....you know....with the Mormon thing and all.... - John
68 DeltaL1011man : true MEM wants NW and CO not DL/NW agreed this why i can see SLC staying over DEN to a.net O&D= everthing
69 Ca2ohHP : What kills me is US was willing to pay $11 billion? a year ago for DL, which has a market value of what, $4 billion now? Sucks for those shareholders.
70 DLPMMM : US was largely going to pay with LCC stock, which has dropped in value from $60 to $12.
71 DeltaL1011man : must suck when it was 8 bill in stock and well US stock is doing sooooooooo great right now i bet there just so pissed also it was only 10 bill the 1
72 Post contains images Breaker1011 : Market cap is a comparative measurement so let's not be too hasty - as of Friday, DL's market cap was more than AMR, UAL, LCC, NWA, and CAL, and in f
73 BAW716 : I strongly disagree with Pardus and Mr. Bethune. This is a hard thing for me to say, considering that I think that Mr. Bethune is one of the smartest
74 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Which is why anyone with any credibility 14 months ago was calling BS on Parker and company. Isn't it so poetic! Couldn't be better said considering
75 Ca2ohHP : Hate to break it to the DL cheerleaders, but if you're excited about merging with UA/NW you have another thing coming. Northwest and Republic are sti
76 Breaker1011 : Hmm, that's an interesting statement. Can you elaborate?
77 Bucky707 : there is no one fighting that acquisition. It's been a done deal for a long, long time. Now, if you want to say there are still some employees unhapp
78 Jetlanta : ALPA contracts, as are, preclude this.
79 Boeing7E7 : There is ample proof that economic expansion or contraction on a macro scale has little impact on micro expansion of an airline route between two poi
80 UAL777UK : Gordon Bethune....the same man that said whilst UA was in CH11 that they were a company with AIDS and would die a slow death, then went on to say that
81 Boeing7E7 : If you have no idea how Southwest and the Network Carriers compliment each other to provide a comprehensive air transportation system, then your leve
82 RJNUT : I need to add you to respected user!!!
83 Lemurs : Based on what most CO employees who worked with him through the dark days in the 90's say, he actually does give a crap about employees more so than
84 FlyPNS1 : I hope this type of "the sky is falling" drama isn't what you sell to your clients. The legacies are already competing with WN (and/or other LCC's) i
85 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 84): The legacies are already competing with WN (and/or other LCC's) in almost every large market they serve. For starters, I d
86 UAL777UK : I think you have misinterpreted my post, you should read it again. Bethune, clearly makes his mind up to suit him and not others, hence why all of a
87 Post contains images Boeing7E7 : Likely because he stands to make a fortune????
88 FlyPNS1 : While I have no doubt that PNS would probably lose some capacity in consolidation, I doubt it would be that much that everyone would abandon it and d
89 Boeing7E7 : How was service in 1980? You making a reach there. Yes peopel travel to both hubs, but it doesn't explain why or where they go beyond the hub. Simply
90 FlyPNS1 : Why does consolidation make carriers less competitive in major cities? Do you really think DL will slash service in ATL just because they merge with
91 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : DING DING DING!!! I said it from day one. Gordo isnt going to recomend what will be best for either airline or their employees, hes going to recomend
92 FlyPNS1 : Wrong. You might want to tell the folks in ERI that recently lost ALL DL service. Or the folks in TUP that lost all DL service. Or the folks in BGR t
93 FlyPNS1 : Except the airlines aren't making money on most of these customers. What good are record passenger numbers if you can' t make money on them. You igno
94 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 90): Why does consolidation make carriers less competitive in major cities? Major carriers benefit from nationwide connectivity
95 Jetlanta : I won't address every point you make, because I don't have the time nor the patience. I will simply say this...your regurgitation of the Mike Boyd's
96 Jetlanta : See, FlyPNS1, our friend thinks that everything would be fine with the network carriers if they were operating airplanes no smaller than a 757 into l
97 Boeing7E7 : Nor the knowledge base. Uh... Right. I don't really care what you presume to know about Delta or the industry, you do nothing but trumpet consolidati
98 FlyPNS1 : Do you really think a merged NW/DL will have route structure like an LCC? If you do, you are a terrible analyst. Again, the airlines aren't going to
99 Jetlanta : You got me.
100 Boeing7E7 : I didn't say widebodies. But Delta, United, and American do just that. Do you really think a merged NW/DL will result in an expanded route structure?
101 Jetlanta : You said it. I work with airports everyday and I see it all the time. Boyd has something to sell them, of course. I mean, I agree with a LOT of what
102 Boeing7E7 : I think if you saw the larger picture you might think differently and when you see the results, you won't be able to do anythign to rectify it. My oh
103 MrLurker : Bingo! I think you hit the nail on the head with this one FlyPNS1... Sorry Jetlanta. All of the CEO's and their staffs (including myself) are complet
104 FlyPNS1 : No one said consolidation was necessarily good for the free market. You don't seem to understand the concept that airlines exist to make money...not
105 Boeing7E7 : Really, and how is that. I promote a free market, misguided airlines see major congested airports as cash cow LCC free airports. Ignorance of what dr
106 FlyHoss : I had Mr. Bethune onboard recently and I mentioned his work for Pardus. He explained Pardus' motive in pushing the DL/UA merger as an effort to "reinf
107 MrLurker : Well, having come back from class already, I think it would be best for us to just agree to disagree. I do not feel that consolidation is necessary.
108 Jetlanta : Glad you got it all figured out, and us, for that matter. Questions for you... Did the C&S merger make Delta a stronger carrier? Did the Northeast me
109 Jetlanta : I couldn't agree more.
110 DeltaL1011man : right and when he told both Ron and Leo over at Delta that they were STUPID for trying to protect the non-union workers sounds like someone who reall
111 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 108): Did the C&S merger make Delta a stronger carrier? Did the Northeast merger provide Delta with significant long-term gain
112 DLPMMM : I think you have the percentages backward. Pardus is a significant UA shareholder, but not so significant DL shareholder. Cheers
113 Jetlanta : Well, with your mindset, you'll be a great chairman of the new CAB. Too bad the rest of the world is moving in the opposite direction. Have fun reliv
114 Boeing7E7 : You're the one preaching consolidation and a decrease in the competitive environment. The rest of the world is moving toward deregulation and an incr
115 Jetlanta : Deregulation means letting the market lead its course. You'd like to stunt that development. Re-regulation is what you literally called for. Hardly t
116 DeltaL1011man : dude your jumping sides rp111 "This will be the last great rape of the airline industry and unfortunately, re-regulation will be the end game because
117 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 115): Deregulation means letting the market lead its course. You'd like to stunt that development. Re-regulation is what you l
118 Jetlanta : Holy crap. You say the industry has some sort of "non-existent" problem? If you really believe that, you are utterly clueless. This industry is a tra
119 FlyPNS1 : I guess FedEx, DHL and UPS should be expecting regulation anytime now. There's only the three of them (plus the USPS), so using your logic they shoul
120 Jetlanta : Exactly. The market is speaking. Are we listening?
121 DLPMMM : Do you understand anything about economics? What is wrong with some people curtailing travel? The people that will curtail their travel in this situa
122 Boeing7E7 : And there is that magic word... "potentially". Assuming the market is of sufficient size. And a merger solves this how? The market wants reasonably p
123 Post contains links SLCUT2777 : It looks as though Reuters/USAToday is reporting most analysts "think a DL/NW deal is less risky: I have to agree that this would be the safe road. ht
124 AirFrnt : We should point out that this is almost exactly what DEN will be after WN's latest shift upwards. F9 has surpassed CO's traffic at DEN, WN has passed
125 Jetlanta : Every single existing hub market is plenty big enough to support significant LCC service. Surely you acknowledge that. By eliminating them and their
126 DLPMMM : The market wants FREE air travel, not reasonable priced air travel. "You can't always get what you want". Most would say that we already have reasona
127 Boeing7E7 : Because this has worked so well in the past and in every industry consolidation since. Right? You just spent half a web page advocating consolidation
128 Post contains images SNCntry32 : SY wont go anywhere. There are enough people in the Twin Cities to fill up those 738's. I think DL will keep the name of who ever's brand is stronges
129 Boeing7E7 : From an economic standpoint, the loss of a hub at CVG would be devastating irrespective of LCC growth potential. Not to mention the infrastructure in
130 DLPMMM : Devastating to who? The airport employees? The airport consultants? There is no reason for the current large number of hubs. The customers of CVG wil
131 DLPMMM : It has worked quite will in a lagre number of industries. You are the one in for a rude awakening. You still don't seem to understand the concepts of
132 DeltaL1011man : alot of people want Delta to stay Delta plus the overlapping of routes wouldn't even be funny and yet know has told me how DL is not stronger than UA
133 SNCntry32 : Your picking at hairs at this point. Northwest Airlines Contential Airlines, United Airlines etc etc.. Easy mistake. DL will grow in Asia. It is anyo
134 Post contains images AirFrnt : By merging with a different set of carriers? PT. Barnum was right evidently.[Edited 2008-01-15 14:17:15]
135 Jetlanta : Well, since you have yet to share a rational argument as to why the legacy carriers WON'T see profit growth via consolidation, I'm not too concerned
136 Boeing7E7 : Just what the re-regulation doctors are ordering. Its already begun with allowance for peak hour pricing. Where have we heard this before? You may be
137 LAXdude1023 : Well as far as Atlanta is concerned, FL has their big hub there so I would say that ATL already has a nice prescence of LCC. Chicago has a big hub fo
138 WorldTraveler : ATL is gate constrained. More gates can be built but for many times more than what the present ones cost. Chicago could easily mean ORD which is a muc
139 DeltaL1011man : bud I'm sorry ether way I'm pretty sure Atlanta will stay as you said Richard has also made it clear Delta Will be the name period UA,NW,B6,AS any of
140 Jetlanta : Peak hour pricing does nothing to change the status quo in terms of carrier shares at major airports. In fact, the recent agreements regarding NYC vi
141 Boeing7E7 : LCC's are decimating revenue streams on major city pairs where they opt to compete, this, not small markets is what is draining your coffers. If you
142 Jetlanta : What don't you get about what I said? If WN can't get NYC access, they can't drain anything in the NYC market. The network carriers have enormous adv
143 Boeing7E7 : Yes, they do. Incredible. You don't want competition. That'll work wonders in the future. Unreal.
144 Jetlanta : LOL. Sure, on the cost side it is expensive. But you take no consideration of the revenue advantages they gain from limiting competition. The whole p
145 Boeing7E7 : I see, so you want airlines to be able to choose their neighbors. Got it.
146 SNCntry32 : Dont call me bud. Yes, I know this. No need to apologize. Just like the DLH maintaince base? Major* Consolidation is enviable. It will just be intere
147 Jetlanta : Again, I'm talking about what helps this industry get its act together. Not what is best for consumers. You, on the other hand, live in a fantasy wor
148 Boeing7E7 : Now your true colors are showing...What helps the industry get its act together is a shuddering of profiteers because there isn't any real profit to
149 Jetlanta : Will somebody else please address this? I'm done.
150 Breaker1011 : Well - I do agree with one point that 7E7 makes: As an industry, the USA's airline business is one of the most dismal, most ill-fated places to inves
151 Jetlanta : Which is exactly why something needs to change. 7E7's answer is to do nothing. It's OK for the industry to make no money. Look at his last post. He l
152 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 151): 7E7's answer is to do nothing. No, my answer is for airlines to make a fundamental shift in the way they approach the bu
153 Post contains images Ualcsr : Welcome to my RU list!! They love to bash us, but we know better Don't forget that UA's also been paying down more of its debt than other US airlines
154 Breaker1011 : I do agree that doing nothing isn't the smart thing to do at this time. Something needs to be done. From an investment standpoint and future stability
155 DeltaL1011man : just trying to make you feel a little better about this hole thing no need to be an ass about it........Don't shoot the messenger my bad typo
156 Airlinespotter : Hummm and Delta stock is doing soooooooo great right now that they desperately seeking for a merger.
157 Post contains images NW748i : That's fine. While that is going on, the other carriers can learn from the mistake and promptly step up to the plate once the dust settles. - I think
158 Bobnwa : The BOD can be anywhere. The DL BOD is not in Atlanta now. They hold meetings in various places.
159 FlyPNS1 : What is this fundamental shift? You keep saying consolidation is wrong, but you don't seem to have a better answer except a vague expression like mak
160 Hiflyer : They, the DL BOD, has had a month to review the Pardus proposals on merger as engineered by Bethune. Now they give the DL mgt 14 days to get an agreem
161 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : Aww, come on! This is going to get interesting. More than likely the HQ will remain in Atlanta. I wonder what effect it will have on the MSP area if
162 Bobnwa : Can you produce any reliable source for that statement? Believe me Anderson was not fired. Where did you get that piece of fiction? Give you give any
163 Post contains links Hiflyer : The day following the first 'leak' by Pardus there was quotes from informed mgt sources that headquarters for a combined UA DL deal would remain in Ch
164 Boeing7E7 : Focus on the product you are good at and deliver. No, I'm pointing out the fact that an airline that focuses on its employees and product produces a
165 TWAGuy : You get what you pay for...
166 Jetlanta : They don't work on the network/revenue management side of the business. clearly.[Edited 2008-01-16 14:10:41]
167 Post contains links Jetlanta : Since all your experts think that me and the CEO's of pretty much every carrier are off our rocker...here is a column from today's WSJ. http://online
168 Post contains images TWAGuy : But do they know the difference between ICAO and IATA
169 Post contains images FlyPNS1 : Again, more vague platitudes that mean nothing. You sound more like one of those TV self-help gurus than someone who actually understands airline ope
170 Post contains images Jetlanta : What does Gary Kelly know anyway?
171 DeltaL1011man : see here we go he said "What kills me is US was willing to pay $11 billion? a year ago for DL, which has a market value of what, $4 billion now? Suck
172 Post contains images TWAGuy : According to some here - not as much as Mike Boyd
173 DLPMMM : Some people here like to voice unfounded platitudes about "profiterers" and how Focussing" on the employees will cure the aviation industry. HOGWASH!
174 DeltaL1011man : 9 EA and PA was still around at the time(both went out in 1989-1991)
175 DLPMMM : You are correct. It should also be noted that of these 9, several were reigonal in nature such as DL and EA in the east/southeast, and US was non-exi
176 WorldTraveler : actually, no. Many network carriers still generate some of their highest profits in LFC competitive markets. It's called revenue management. Network
177 DLPMMM : Feel free to disagree. For clarification, the survival I am talking about is not due to LCCs eating the legacy carriers lunch. The aviation market ha
178 NW748i : I'm not terribly interested in what happens to MSP--I'm a native Detroiter. As anyone who payed attention during the recent primary knows, Detroit (a
179 Bobnwa : Your sources were ambiguous at best and did in no way prove your statements. There was no agreement to keep HDQ in ORD. Anderson was in no way fired
180 Cjpark : What is interesting about this whole conversation about airline consolidation is the idea that by picking off the low hanging fruit of the Legacy carr
181 RJNUT : Brilliant!! American Airlines wrote the book and has been VERY successful in this arena!
182 DLPMMM : Not quite. The legacy and LCC markets are distinctly different. While there are certain cases where they compete directly, LCCs GENERALLY do not fly
183 Jetlanta : If the LCC's can't add capacity into the major airports because the public sector is inept, how do you figure they are going to do that?[Edited 2008-
184 Post contains links SNCntry32 : http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...s-hearing-on-delta-northwest-deal/ http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...feed=ACBJ&date=20080117&id=8057933 h
185 DeltaL1011man : happens everytime when there is a merger.......... between the Delta PRs and the AJC along with our government (seems like) has something everyday ab
186 LAXdude1023 : Someone is going to get screwed, whos it going to be?
187 SNCntry32 : Then it seems NW is not DL's dancing partner. MAC has bent over backwards for NW. The state of Minnesota has given tax breaks to NW and helped them o
188 MKE22 : Some things are going to be made clear by February, because thats when the 2 are expected to make some sort of announcement. MSP will remain a hub, j
189 LAXdude1023 : I think this is the most likely scenario. I dont think MSP is in any danger of losing the amount of flights that it currently holds (they might actua
190 Boeing7E7 : The public sector is inept? So when an airport proposes expansion or a new facility and the major carriers don't support the measure because a conges
191 SNCntry32 : If they merge. However, I think you will still see a lot of political opposition in Minnesota about the HQ's. If, they merge.
192 LAXdude1023 : I dont doubt that. However I still think ATL will win out.
193 DeltaL1011man : no has said they will leave the NW all together but all the shots will be called from Atlanta MSP will not go anywhere agreed going to see that with
194 Cjpark : The LCC and Legacy carriers compete head to head for those O&D passengers all over the country, regardless of the differences in business models the
195 Jetlanta : I'm saying that the legacies are rather protected in the biggest, most lucrative markets in the country. In places like LGA, JFK, EWR, DCA, BOS, ATL,
196 MKE22 : Agreed.
197 Cjpark : You miss the point that the extra infrastructure is not needed. It has nothing to do with excluding airlines. There is more air service concentrated
198 MKE22 : What does New York have to do with MSP? DL will keep the JFK hub, JFK isn't going anywhere.
199 DLPMMM : Absolutely! Most of the publc sector employees don't have a clue. NK is trying, but the LCC model just doesn't work as well in the international mark
200 Jetlanta : I miss nothing in this case. Air service is concentrated in New York because demand exists there. My point it that LCC's will not find space to grow
201 MKE22 : Indeed, unless you talk about White Plains which is still pretty far.
202 Cjpark : Like I said competition only exists when carriers want to compete. Amazing enough Jet Blue can fly out of BOS, JFK and LGA what is different about th
203 Jetlanta : JetBlue got into to each airport at an opportune time in the past. I'm clearly referring to the future. In BOS and JFK they got enough space to make
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