BA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 6155 posts, RR: 52 Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 20087 times:
This is not unexpected at all, really Boeing should have played the reality card when creating the EIS for this new plane, so many unknowns, give yourself room, error's as problems are bound to occur.
You would have thought they learnt from the issues Airbus had with the 380.
MSYtristar From United States, joined Aug 2005, 5429 posts, RR: 55 Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 20034 times:
Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 4): Boeing should have played the reality card when creating the EIS for this new plane, so many unknowns, give yourself room, error's as problems are bound to occur.
I agree. New technology + new production methods = good chance for delay.
UA's 744 Y-class seat is more comfortable than DL's new 77L Y-class seat.
Ncfc99 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 462 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 19953 times:
Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 4): You would have thought they learnt from the issues Airbus had with the 380.
This is what dissapoints me the most, not that the plane is late(take the time to get it right), its that they seem to not have learnt a thing from Airbus and the almighty balls up that was the announcments of the delays. Get it out in the open.
But, then again, does it really matter too much to anyone other than the A.net membership.
Nycbjr From United States, joined Aug 2007, 339 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 19948 times:
Not entirely surprising but a big disappointment none the less.. I really want to see this lady fly! I really wish they had kept more production in house (and so does Boeing I bet lol)..
oh well.. keep at it, this time announce a more realistic time table.. even I admitted during the last delay that it was too ambitious..
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 1602 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 19784 times:
Maybe they will announce delays but they haven't yet. So far, Boeing has not announced a thing so the title of this thread is incorrect and misleading. At this point, we have an article, based on an unnamed source, that suggests Boeing may announce further delays. That's not quite the same as "Boeing Announce Delays"
Accuracy may be a bit much to ask for but we can try, can't we...?
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18424 posts, RR: 60 Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 19747 times:
Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 4): You would have thought they learnt from the issues Airbus had with the 380.
And do what exactly? They believed the new schedule would work. They were wrong. So was the answer to announce a 9 month delay when they only thought it would be 6 months? Or do you think they were lying about only thinking it would be 6 months? I'm not sure the answer. But it's not like Boeing waited until March 31 to announce this. They announced it in the middle of January as soon as they were sure the schedule would slip again. Something is obviously wrong with something. I wonder if the fire had any impact...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Singapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13606 posts, RR: 25 Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 19697 times:
Has anyone got a delay timeline?
01 OCTOBER 2009: This user has retired from aviation to the status of lurker. Thanks Airliners.net for some great times
Singapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13606 posts, RR: 25 Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 19518 times:
For those of us who are annoyed at not having a WSJ subscription:
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18424 posts, RR: 60 Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 19404 times:
But the question remains: what kind of delays. Remember that Boeing was willing to postpone power-on by 3 months at first and still make their flight test deadline by compression.
When they announced the 6 month delay, they "uncompressed" the schedule. With this delay at "up to 3 months" but reported more like 2, does that mean it's 2-3 months late on delivery, or a shorter delay after "recompressing" the test schedule?
We won't know until Boeing says something I guess. But it's the worst kept secret out there, especially since CaptainX only shows up to spew doom and gloom when a delay is pending...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Virgin747LGW From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 220 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19348 times:
hmmm any chance they are burying the bad news while everyone is soon to be talking about airbus' 2007 sales?
PlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 500 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19302 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16): But the question remains: what kind of delays.
I am not entirely sure whether that answers your question, but the Seattle PI online article states that power-on will likely be pushed back from January to March, with the first flight expected around June.
So, for all I understand we are talking about delays in the entire development schedule.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18424 posts, RR: 60 Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19127 times:
Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 16): I am not entirely sure whether that answers your question, but the Seattle PI online article states that power-on will likely be pushed back from January to March, with the first flight expected around June.
But based on previous Boeing claims, once the birds are actually flying, they feel they can compress the flight schedule to as short as 6 months if needed.
So, does this mean that if the FF is Late May or June, and you add 6 months, you still get November/December, or will they push EVERYTHING back 2 more months.
That's my question.
But if the stock is dropping, seams like a good time to buy.
On good news, you buy on the rumor, sell on the news. With bad news, you sell on the rumor, buy on the news.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
EvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 18924 times:
If they do announce yet another delay I think they will also have to admit they are not going to deliver 112 aircraft either first year. That will affect cashflow significantly, as well as penalty payments. Wall Street isn't going to be happy.
PlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 500 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 18926 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17): But based on previous Boeing claims, once the birds are actually flying, they feel they can compress the flight schedule to as short as 6 months if needed.
So, does this mean that if the FF is Late May or June, and you add 6 months, you still get November/December, or will they push EVERYTHING back 2 more months.
I do not have the faintest idea. On the other hand, I assume even Boeing can only make educated guesses at this point. I was quite shocked to hear that there hasn't even been power-on yet (I didn't follow the developments closely). More than half a year after roll-out! Even power-on is expected to be at some rather ill-defined moment in the future (around March), and first flight is normally quite a while after that.
Overall, I am quite skeptical about compressed schedules and the idea that they can somehow regain a significant portion of the lost time. Frankly, it would probably be wise for Boeing to finally start settling on a more conservative schedule.
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 3978 posts, RR: 46 Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 18890 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17): But based on previous Boeing claims, once the birds are actually flying, they feel they can compress the flight schedule to as short as 6 months if needed.
That - in all honesty - is the problem. Nobody really believes that a) Boeing will pull it off and b) it is wise to compress the flight testing by such a margin. Tight time schedule = pressure on people = too much pressure on people = mistakes happen = big dodo.
SRT75 From United States, joined Jul 2005, 214 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 18792 times:
I hope everyone who was putting Boeing on a pedestal and talking about all those NW and CO (etc., etc.) 787 routes they were certain they were going to fly on in 2008 when Airbus was having delay after delay with the A380 are eating a nice slice of humble pie.
BestWestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 5062 posts, RR: 62 Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 18746 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17): So, does this mean that if the FF is Late May or June, and you add 6 months, you still get November/December, or will they push EVERYTHING back 2 more months.
Help me out here, does this push boeing into compensation claim territory for the 2008 / early 2009 deliveries that are the most affected?
Rheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1552 posts, RR: 47 Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 18700 times:
IMO the best case scenario is an unspecific delay of first flight, fair to assume sometime in 3Q 2008, and new guidance for production ramp-up down to ~60 aircraft until end of 2009. There may be an announcement by one of the engine OEMs as well...
Keep On Doing What You're Doing But Make It Funky
26 DAYflyer: When it flies, it flies I guess. If they are having such serious issues with the suppliers, why aren't they all over these guys and making THEM pay th
28 BestWestern: This is a Boeing project and the airlines have a contract with Boeing. When companies outsource to save money it often comes back to bite them...
29 RedFlyer: That, to me, is the biggest disappointment of all because their credibility, if this story is true, is now in tatters. So when they announce a revise
30 CFMitch56: Does anyone know how Boeing is doing with the Alcoa fasteners that were in short supply and contributed to a previous delay? The search on FlightBlogg
31 BestWestern: People should listen to the podcast. Interesting commentary about the Boeing announcement tomorrow happening on the same day that Airbus release thei
32 Petera380: Time to switch orders to the A350! Peter
33 RedFlyer: From the WSJ article: Any guesses who might be a defector if these problems are not resolved quickly?
34 Stitch: They told the customers over the weekend and they will tell the world tomorrow. Where is the "conspiracy of silence"? The whole program is mighty "flu
35 BestWestern: An airline with way too much capacity, or a business model not working... Globespan... This wont be a 787 problem, but an airline problem...
36 Thorben: Indeed, everybody knows it before Boeing finally announces it. Can't their executives get into legal trouble for that? Stock market laws are very har
37 WingedMigrator: The A380 made its first flight with minimal delays (2 months, IIRC). This is clearly an entirely different set of issues.
38 Stitch: Whoever has only chosen 787-9s, I would guess, since the A350-800 would work.
40 Tdscanuck: What exactly were they supposed to have learned? They made their best guess based on the info available at the time, same as Airbus. It turned out th
41 EvilForce: Well this delay sucks. I was hoping to be able to fly some of my Transpac flights on 787s next year via NWA. Bummer.
42 Stitch: At this point, take the two years to get it right. It certainly did not hurt the A380 and it will not hurt the 787. Fly it around for a year on demons
43 EvilForce: There are a number of suppliers that will be hurt by this. In fact Boeing may need to help the suppliers out. These suppliers who have performed well
44 Brendows: What exactly do you mean here? Could you elaborate?
45 RedFlyer: Not to split hairs, but I think Shanahan is too new to the program to take much of a hit on his credibility. He pretty much fell into this after the
46 Stitch: At this point Boeing should just cull the weak ones, get the good ones up to speed, and re-launch production late next year to support 20 frames a mo
47 Astuteman: We (on Astute), after 2 or 3 attempts at "optimistic re-scheduling", eventually got to the stage where we "over-egged" the bad news, and from then on
48 Ikramerica: Hmmm, considering CO was a 2009 customer from the start and STILL will be unless the delay is 9 more months, I think you should get your facts straig
49 Danny: The problem with that is that they are obliged by law to inform NYSE. If customers were notified during the weekend and the official statement comes
50 RedFlyer: Very sensible. Unfortunately, too much shareholder pressure for them to just unilaterally delay the program 24 months. They'll never allow such a gap
51 Stitch: Well I am sure if the SEC feels shenanigans went on, they will formally call "Shenanigans" on Boeing.
52 Ncfc99: To announce delays as soon as they know about them, don't have your PR deptartment spouting about still being on schedule, then a week or two later a
53 Stitch: At this point, far better for Boeing to choose an artificially long delay then get caught out on yet another artificially short one. That way, when t
54 BoeingBus: Hey fellas... for every adversity there is opportunity. Tomorrow afternoon will be a great day to buy BA stock.
55 Nycbjr: John is reporting on this over at flightblogger.. http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/
56 ScrubbsYWG: i notice he says dreamliner 2 is currently further ahead than dreamliner 1. What exactly has boeing been doing since july with dreamliner 1? When did
57 CygnusChicago: One month ago: (12/07/07) Guess either something's changed, or it's normal for companies to deny before they announce. Either way, I'm sure this won't
58 Stitch: Trying to get it together and completed. It arrived in kit form. Soon after. Boeing has been holding the parts at the suppliers. They, too, were tota
59 Tdscanuck: Not really, unless they did something incredibly stupid (like sold shares yesterday). If they hadn't outsourced, the plane would have cost more (much
60 HawkerCamm: I'm uncomfortable with rapid FT/certification from points. a) I dont think all the required testing is doable in 6month. It'll take 2 months for LN1
61 GBan: Actually that is the only point that makes me worry: apparently they do not know, in other words: they are not in full control of the situation. To b
62 MasseyBrown: Might as well call them Nightmare 1 and Nightmare 2. "Dreamliner" was always a little too cute.
63 Stitch: Neither was Airbus with the A380, and yet it worked out okay. Three years from now, we'll all be marveling out how cool and successful the A380 and 7
64 GBan: It will be an excellent aircraft, but it can't be done in the time they predicted.
65 Avek00: Won't happen. Boeing will simply cough up some 777s as short-term or permanent replacement to anyone who gripes loud enough. And given some of the ch
66 GBan: Exactly, but only after they took enough time to get in full control of the situation.
67 CygnusChicago: Unlikely. I don't see anyone jumping ship. The prevailing thinking will be, "well, if Boeing is struggling, the risk is high that Airbus will struggl
68 Tdscanuck: They never have, nor was there any expecation, that they'd be in full control of the situation. You can't make a product with this many parts and sup
69 EvilForce: I guess this answers all the people blasting Airbus for needing 5 years to launch the 350, vs. Boeing's 4 years. I can't imagine the level of complexi
70 Ncfc99: I cannot confirm or deny if they are annoncing delays when they know about them. If they are announcing the delays as they come up against them, they
71 GBan: I do assume that Boeings management is supposed to be in full control of the situation, probably they are even paid for that. Are you suggesting: "We
72 PlaneInsomniac: With all due respect, but I have to agree with GBan: this opinion is one of the weirder posts I have read on A.net. How can Boeing management not be
73 Georgiabill: I think Boeing,like Airbus and the A380 want to make sure their airliners meet or exceed promised results. It would be ridiculous to proceed without a
74 Sphealey: "Held accountable" is not the same thing as "be in complete control of"; it is possible (and common in complex projects) to have the former without t
75 Scipio: The customers who are most affected are presumably those with early delivery slots. But why would you give up a 2010 delivery slot for a B787 in favo
76 Beta: If the news is true, very disappointing, but not wholly unexpected. I raised the question before, but now with this further delay, I'd ask whether Sco
77 Azhobo: I bellieve the A350 is closer to 7 years. This is disappointing if new delays are true. Not doubting they are either. As a Boeing fan it hurts to say
78 WingedMigrator: Boeing will be fine as long as there have been no Shanahanigans such as excessive Forgeardening of the schedule.
79 Vega9000: The most worrisome thing is that all these delays are announced BEFORE the airplane has even begun flight testing. Any problems there, and you can jus
80 Stitch: Even with a 2010 EIS and 10 deliveries a month and the A350 tracking 100% to plan, Boeing will drop off ZA400 before Airbus can drop of MSN001. And w
81 Tdscanuck: What else are they supposed to tell the PR people? Every project has a schedule that they're trying to achieve. At some point, obviously, you think y
82 ER757: The answers to both of these questions are known only to those with the contracts. On the 2nd one, the suppliers would most certainly not pay compens
83 Scbriml: They'll probably be as many defectors as Airbus saw with the A350 redesign. Currently zero.
84 Dougbr2006: Airbus has 7 years until EIS I think they can probably learn a lot from this with regard to farming out work too late for the first sets to be comple
85 Speedbird128: I make my best guess when I take a lotto ticket. Boeing, by now -after all these years of manufacturing some great aircraft- should be a little more
87 Revelation: Eh? The Wall Street Journal published the article. Do you think they did that as a service to the a.net community or the investing community? Big dod
88 Speedbird2263: " target=_blank>http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=BA That cant be good.
89 Spkyflyer: I confess to have been an ardent Boeing fan, and will fully admit to a touch of schadenfraude during the A380 project, which I felt silly about, but w
90 RedChili: I hope that one result of all these delays is that the ardent Airbus and Boeing fans on a.net will realize that no company is perfect, and that both c
91 Osiris30: Yet, here we are an Airbus hasn't even selected suppliers yet (for good reason.. i.e. internal turmoil).. we'll be going through this again in 5 year
92 Stitch: Sure, but they not only kept the ones they ordered, they bought more. And why? Because even though the plane was late, Airbus used that time to drive
93 Sphealey: >> Stock is going down faster than [ahem] > That cant be good. Wink Keep in mind that the US stock market is trying to process the absolutely horrendo
94 Stitch: The people who claim Boeing management are incompetent or clueless about running a distributed supply chain are either just lashing back in petty reve
95 Lightsaber: Ghad! We're talking an 11 month delay?!? That only matters because... Have you tried to price a trans-pacific ticket lately? In particular with conne
96 RedChili: I believe the 5th and 6th SQ A380 will fly SIN-HKG-SFO.
97 RedChili: I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere on a.net yet... I read a blog entry with the following information: - Parts for ZA002 are expected in Everett a
98 Legoguy: Unfortunate for Boeing but I imagine it is best for them not to rush the aircraft at such a stage. I guess delays were inevitable however Boeing will
99 Sxf24: The 737 fuselage is manufactured by Spirit Aerosystems. Northrup is not a supplier to any Boeing commercial programs.
100 Philly65: I bet Scott Carson's days are numbered. I want to see Boeing succeed with the 787 (less farming out 80% or more of the work).
101 AutoThrust: I'm sure Boeing will overcome this delays without big penaltys. Crazy times where the market and competition does force the OEM's to reduce the develo
102 Osiris30: AutoThrust: I think there may be ALOT more truth to that statement than many here realize. Even though it's currently a seller's market, I think both
103 Socalfive: I'll say it just like I said it back when the A380 was delayed, where new technology is concerned, THEY ALL WIND UP DELAYED, big surprise. The whole m
104 Stitch: That's right. They used to be built at Boeing Commercial Airplanes Wichita, which is now owned by Spirit. They used to build part of the 747-400 fuse
105 RedFlyer: A comforting thought, I'm sure, as your observation is factually correct. However, how many potential orders did the A350 lose to the 787? As things
106 ZKEOJ: I don't prefer Airbus (I love aircraft, period), but when I read this I was just laughing. All the B-nuts trashing Airbus when they had the A380 probl
107 Philly65: I heard rumors (again just a rumor) that NWA is seriously considering canceling their 787 order. Has anyone else heard this as well? (And I don't thin
108 IAD787: Confirmed: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...confirmed-boeing-to-delay-787.html "Boeing will delay first flight of its 787 Dreamliner three more
109 RedFlyer: Any word on when expected first customer delivery will be, or are we to assume that, too, is pushed back 3 months?
110 IAD787: I think we can safely assume we're looking at EIS will be late 1Q09 or early 2Q09. The flight test program can't really be compressed that much, espec
111 Rigo: Well let's hope they at least made sure that everybody is using the same version of CATIA
112 RedFlyer: That's exactly why I asked. If the existing test program schedule is already compressed, and since they have to bite the bullet and get egg on their
113 FlyingAY: Is it possible under US laws to tell the customers first and the shareholders only a couple of days later?
114 Charles79: I wouldn't bet on it, as without the A vs B war, what fun would a.net be? Just kidding, of course! As for the delay, not a surprise but not the end o
115 5YKQW: Not really surprising. We all seem to make a huge fuss when a new aircraft model is overdue yet if were something small like a new DVD or iPod or car
116 Milan320: I didn't know that the 2010 Olympics were sponsored by Boeing
117 Swallow: Where is Joe Sutter when you need him? Best wishes to the next generation of 'The Incredibles'
118 Lightsaber: I would be very happy if I was wrong and you were right. Lightsaber
119 Ebbuk: Well well well, I would never have thought it of Boeing. It is clear that even with the best design, best track record and best intentions, things don
120 Chiad: I agree. A big delayed order-book is almost like a curse. Hopefully only the first 100 planes or so will be delayed and compensated. However I expect
121 Art: Why do you say that? If initial deliveries of dozens of aircraft are (vague guess) up to a year late, why would Boeing not be paying a lot of penalti
122 Scbriml: Without any contacts inside Boeing, I have no additional information here, but I do have my experience on many projects. The real concern will be tha
123 Planemaker: He said winter not the summer games! And the fact that he said the over flight should be led by AC should have tipped you off as to which country is
124 Astuteman: But the A350 is on a far more sedate timeline....... Out of interest, have you ever worked on a staggeringly huge project, in a staggeringly large, m
125 BestWestern: Will this become the sacrificed 748i pax variant - the aircraft with bugger all interest shown by the airlines.
127 Art: I wonder what price Boeing sell the BBJ version for. Margins are better on those than on larger orders from airlines, aren't they. Half a dozen BBJ o
129 Danny: This still assumes almost problem-free and compressed testing phase which, lets be honest with ourselves, is not going to happen.
130 Alessandro: Hmm, anyone thinks the shotout in Lebanon 2006 has contributed to the delays, with IAI as subcontractor to the B787?
131 Joni: I'm still grappling with this use of the word "aggressive". The image of an "aggressive aircraft" I get is either a B-52 carpet-bombing Cambodia, or
132 Alessandro: A big downturn due to high fuel price only benefit those who got fuel efficent planes, other reasons like SARS and terrorism will be another story.
133 Milan320: ???? Yeah, where did I say Summer. The 2010 Olympics ARE the winter games, where did I say summer? And I well know that they are in Vancouver, CANADA
134 Rigo: I'm neither an Airbus Aficionado nor Anti Airbus, but i think that even if the situations of the A380 and of the 787 are equally disappointing, their
135 BestWestern: At least Boeing has some good and bad news today - Good news being their winning of the 2007 orders race, and bad the delay in the 787. Every cloud ha
136 Slz396: Now that the news about a second round of delays on the 787 program is almost official, it is time to look ahead and revise the 'best guess' forward s
137 Brendows: The first part can't be right. Fuselage sections for LN5 and out haven't been flown to CHS (as far as I know,) unless the LCF is now capable of flyin
138 Revelation: I don't get your logic. Are you saying that SQ needed two more years of convincing, even after they had placed their orders? Are you saying that cust
139 Scbriml: I don't know about that, but for me, here's a telling quote from Flightblogger: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...confirmed-boeing-to-delay-787.
140 Carls: Airlines will turn their heads to the A330 family before they get any 777. Cheaper, better performance for short and medium range, the A330 has no co
141 NYC777: Well Boeing is going to be taking a lot of blows on the chin today and frankly they deserved to have their b@lls raked over the coals. I'd love to hea
142 Scbriml: I think that's a bit of an exaggeration! The original schedule was always ambitious. Clearly now we can all see it was far too ambitious, but Boeing
143 NYC777: Not unless it's the execs of affected airlines or the partners who are talking ot the press about the new delay.
144 BestWestern: Except customers who shouldnt have ordered the aircraft in the first place....
145 NYC777: No I don't think so. You're supposed to have managers to make sure that operations flow apprpriately and they should have been talking to the small s
146 Zeke: I think that is unfair, I think they have some very very good managers. The 787 was ambitious, but this is business, technology companies need to set
147 DAYflyer: Well said NYC777. You would think they would have learned something from Airbus' experience with the A-380 issues. It does appear that the program is
148 Astuteman: Great, great post, Zeke! (And here's you a dyed-in-the-wool Boeing basher too ) Heartily agree with your comments and sentiments. Regards
149 CaptainX: SST Link http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi...127686&slug=boeing16&date=20080116 Yahoo LINK: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080116/aqw079.html?.v=33 Ea
150 BestWestern: And America wouldn't exist, and we wouldnt be having this conversation as neither would boeing. To come to think of it, imagine if Adam & eve didnt t
151 Osiris30: Sorry I wasn't referring to systems.. more thinking actual hull manufacturing. I don't think Airbus has settled much on that front. Heh.. the beauty
152 Zeke: Just because I prefer white chocolate, does not mean I dislike milk of dark chocolate, I am just a chocolate connoisseur with a preference. Thanks fo
153 Manfredj: Not really, I admire ambition on the part of Boeing. Let's wait and see the official announcement from the company itself. With Boeing's ability to p
154 Slz396: I don't know... Is there an new airport opening deep south on the southern hemisphere to do cold soak tests somewhere in summer 2009 then? Starting t
155 Alessandro: "Schedule changes" nice way to put it, http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q1/080116a_nr.html
156 Ckfred: Hopefully, Boeing has learned its lesson about outsourcing and keeps more work in-house, when it starts on the replacement for the 737NG/757-200 line
157 Planemaker: That your original comment to Stitch is obviously pointless!
158 RedFlyer: If worst case is a loss of credibility and reduced earnings, then it looks like worst case has happened. By the way, there are some great business st
159 Stitch: Boeing outsources a ton on the 737, 747, 767 and 777, with a supply chain all over the world. They earned a 4.0 GPA in that lesson. The lesson Boeing
160 PW100: I'm unsure if Boeing can just select new partners, and dump the non-performing ones. I believe that by outsourcing Boeing not only outsourced the prod
161 Tdscanuck: You're right that you need to say something to get money, program approval, etc. But to say "you MUST stay on top of things" implies that this is som
162 NYC777: Here's asyopsis of the Boeing conference call. SOrry if I left somethings so feel free to fill in any missed information and blanks: Boeing January 16
163 Flysherwood: I predict that the CEO of BCA will be fired. The Board of Directors are going to be forced to look like they are taking action. A 5% drop in the price
164 Scbriml: I would agree, but it seems to be less of an issue in an aviation duopoly. Many Airbus critics took delight in telling us Airbus had zero credibility
165 Osiris30: Wow talk about over the top.. 5% in one day is not cause for firing a CEO.. 5% a day for 10 days is.. You're about an order of magnitude out of line
166 Thorben: Given they delivered 75 last year, wouldn't that take 300 new orders in 2008?
167 Pnwtraveler: Everyone keeps singling out Boeing during a period when all stocks are down. The Toronto Stock Exchange was way down on Monday. Do you think any of th
168 Scbriml: Shouldn't happen. Instead of just looking at Boeing's stock, why not look at the market as a whole? The company I work for has dropped 8.5% in two da
169 Flysherwood: As I said, it is my prediction that Mr. Carson will lose his job. Considering the fact that Boeing just had another record year in sales, yet its sto
170 Dubliftment: acccording to the press conference linked above http://web.servicebureau.net/conf/me...m=was&u=/w_ccbn.xsl&date_ticker=BA Boeing still has an ongoing
171 RedFlyer: Perhaps. But I'd be willing to bet Mike Bair will go first. I know he's no long associated with the program since he was replaced by Shanahan, but th
172 HawkerCamm: I think LN1 has to fly first. LN1 will be a heavy loads instrumented FT aircraft task initially to open the flight envelope for LN2-3-4-5-6. For this
173 Tdscanuck: As previously noted, a chunk of that drop was the general drop in the market. The stock actually went up 2.5% immediately following the call this mor
174 Flysherwood: It will become meaningful as soon as the news hits the streets when all of those airlines begin asking for their delay compensation. This delay will
175 Tdscanuck: Not going to happen yet. Boeing stated flat out that the current slide won't change their 2008 financials and won't materially affect 2009. That mean
176 Moo: Well, the very basis that they are getting paid later for their product as its being delivered later should certainly change their 2008 financials -
177 RedChili: Alternative 3: The October 2007 plan was for first delivery in November/December 2008, so they already knew that they would only be able to deliver a
178 Stitch: Sounds about right. The impact on 2008 might not be that severe, overall. Not saying it will be insignificant, but if your revenues are $30 billion,
179 RedChili: I just checked the Boeing web site and found out that you've got the years mixed up. Boeing said, So this new delay -- will not impact 2007 finances
180 Flysherwood: You are absolutely correct. Boeing is on very solid financial footing. However, the impression being given by their incremental delays is that the pr
181 Rheinbote: Are you sure? As far as I understood from what was said during the webcast, the fuselage is still not structurally complete - I have no other explana
182 Stitch: That is not the impression I am getting from listening to the conference calls, but to each their own. Because they did not expect it to be nine mont
183 Tdscanuck: Good catch...yes, I was out by a year. So '07 is fine (which makes sense) and the change in '08 is "not significant", but there obviously much be som
184 Sphealey: Yes, but... It isn't supposed to take the OEMs 7 months to complete an empty barrel either. I understand that executing tasks out of order and in sub
185 Stitch: Well the shipsets for ZA002 and later are in a more complete state then ZA001's were and they continue to be worked on at the suppliers to be even mo
186 Rheinbote: Didn't Boeing prepare a modification center at San Antonio for completion and rework of the first dozen or so aircraft coming off the line?[Edited 20
187 Flysherwood: Precisely. That is the reason that he is on thin ice. These investments funds will pull out of a stock if they don't think that management has their
188 Tdscanuck: You're right it's not supposed to take 7 months...it's not supposed to happen at all. The Everett factory was never designed or built to complete emp
189 RedChili: Or even better: Bring a cow into McDonald's and ask the staff to slaughter it and start preparing hamburgers...
191 Rheinbote: Not for BBJ's, it's for the initial batch of vanilla aircraft: http://www.thenewstribune.com/business/story/107393.html
192 RedChili: Care to elaborate? I'm sure everybody's all ears for more info on this.
193 IAD787: Ask yourself this question: If Boeing gets the tanker and the 767 line is alive and well into the next decade, where do you put a second line? 40-21/
194 Osiris30: Ship the '67 work down to the old MD Facility. Sure it's a PITA, but less so than expanding Everett.
195 Trex8: haven't they already sold off a big chunk of that real estate in Long Beach?
196 Osiris30: I'm not sure, but I *thought* they still had production going on there. Production that I believe is due to wind down in the near future.
197 CygnusChicago: Looks like Alan Mullaly chose a good time to cash out. $28 million. Sure he wouldn't have got that this year
198 NAV20: Just got back from a trip and reading up on the 'big day.' My impression is that both firms handled the situation very well; Boeing mixed in as much g
199 Tdscanuck: Airbus and Boeing are dueling the A350 against the 787 right now...if Boeing under promises on delivery vs. Airbus, that strengthens the A350 and wea
200 Stitch: I believe it was the first six test frames (ZA001 - ZA006) that were the only ones scheduled, because Boeing didn't want to clog-up the production li
201 Milan320: I'd be interested to hear what Aboulafia has to say on all this {sarcast Then state that in the beginning instead assuming I don't know between the wi
202 EvilForce: Oh really? Boeing is a $62 billion corporation with far more projects going on than just the 787. I find it amusing that people who don't even know t
203 Revelation: Management can't have things both ways. They chose to inflict this pain on themselves by not waiting for the subcontractors to come up to speed and d
204 Stitch: They did the math and it didn't look unworkable at the time. Hindsight is always 20/20.
205 Sxf24: The C-17 is produced in LGB. Production is anticipated to end in 2010. Why would anyone think the plan is unworkable? Initial delays are related to t
206 Stitch: When Boeing took over McDonnell Douglas, they considered using the Long Beach factories to produce the 737-700C as well as the C-40. However, the IAM
207 Joni: Qantas will be discussing late-delivery penalties with Boeing: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7193825.stm "Australian airline Qantas has said it
208 Revelation: Just like Airbus thought hand-splicing the data from one version of CATIA into the next would work out just fine. I guess the math skills aren't so g
209 Stitch: Airbus believed that their system to "munge" the V4 and V5 data would work. Not until they had actual product could they see that it actually didn't.
210 Astuteman: Wonderful thing software testing, isn't it? FWIW, Astute was designed on CADDS5, but RR, who provide the reactor systems, refused to migrate from the
211 Stitch: I have to believe they did test it. And the output probably looked fine in virtual form. It's just when it went to actual manufacturing that the prob
212 Flysherwood: Scott Carson is the CEO of Boeing Commercial Aircraft (BCA). The biggest project that BCA has right now is the 787 program. They have over $12 Billio
213 Flysherwood: Are you really going to sit there and argue that they are going to lose orders to the A350XWB because they announce an underpromised yet realistic ti
214 Scbriml: I'd say Boeing is working hard on levelling the field on that score!
215 Flysherwood: There you go; this is already starting. It is not just the 5% drop in price of the stock that works against him in the least. It will be the escalati
216 Stitch: The 787 is the fourth most-popular widebody jet-powered commercial airliner ever. By the end of the year, it will likely be the second (behind the 747
217 Brendows: That is correct, it's the refurb of the six flight test frames that will be done there. That was at least what was released in the media last spring/
218 Revelation: My understanding was that the failure of the v4->v5 munger was known fairly early on, and just wasn't reported up the chain. Those at the lower level
219 Sphealey: A counterpoint to that is that Boeing still has 800 orders for the 787 while the financial services and homebuilding entities (the drivers of the US
220 Tdscanuck: I didn't say they're going to lose orders (going into the future), I'm suggesting they would have (in the past). We can't discuss hypothetical orderi
221 WINGS: Sorry Stitch but have to set the record straight. We might see that very soon, but in reality that title still goes to the A330. with 870 sales vs 841
222 Rheinbote: No, the contract covered refurbishing, modification, and change rework of the first 11 aircraft including the 6 flight test airframes. This was suppo
223 Stitch: I was going off earlier numbers (before the A332 and A333 had their great year). But it will regain the spot soon enough, I imagine. Yes, but it shou
224 Scbriml: Hmm, you may have overlooked: DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/717 with nearly 2,500 sales And maybe the 727 with 1,800+ sales? So, by end 2009, the 787 will have do
226 Thorben: The T7 is at a very mature point of its product life, just like the A330. Production and performance are tested and proven. Who orders now knows for
227 Flysherwood: They should have underpromised (in hindsight) when they had to announce the first delay. That is what I believe will bite them now. Rolling delays ma
228 Flysherwood: They're giving it one hell of a shot!!! All I can say for senior management is, they better have first flight in June.
229 Scbriml: I know, I'm only teasing you! Boeing clearly has a winner in the 787. To be honest, even if it ends up being as late as the A380 (not that I believe
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