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High Speed Train In Argentina : Impact On Air Link  
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 4746 times:

Officially announced tonight, the French Company ALSTOM will build the first TGV line (High Speed Train) in Argentina.

This 710 km ( 441 mi) line will link Buenos Aires to Cordoba via Rosario. The last generation of TGV will cover the distance in less than 3 hours and will become a serious competitor to the Airlines who are offering flights between the two cities.
The service is planned to start in 3 years by 8 double decker trains per day both ways.

Another project, not yet signed, is to build a similar TGV line between Buenos Aires and Mar del Plata, and between Buenos Aires and Mendoza.

Today, the train system in Argentina is not a competitor for the Airlines operating on the domestic network (Buenos Aires - Cordoba by train takes today more than 10 hours).

It will be interesting to see what will be the consequences of these projects on Air Traffic in few years ...



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33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4548 times:

Long over due, it saves oil, reduces pollution, and saves airports slots for international expansions, a win-win situation for both sectors, Argentina has been planning this for a while and now it looks like it's going forward officially.

Countries currently have plans for HSR include:

China (massive networks covering pretty much everywhere except Tibet, Qinghai, and Xinjiang)
Vietnam (Hanoi-Ho Chih Min City)
Malaysia-Singapore (Kl to Singgapore)
India (???, put on hold?)
Algeria
Morocco
Turkey
Saudi Arabia
Most of Eastern Europe


User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4533 times:

Any news on an EZE-AEP rail link?

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23019 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4455 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
Another project, not yet signed, is to build a similar TGV line between Buenos Aires and Mar del Plata, and between Buenos Aires and Mendoza.

600 miles is probably far enough that rail won't be much of a threat to air service on AEP-MDZ... the other proposals seem more interesting.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4423 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
The service is planned to start in 3 years by 8 double decker trains per day both ways.

Anyone who's ever been to Argentina knows that this will never be done on schedule. If this line is up and running in 6 years I'd be surprised.


User currently offlineBSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 379 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4386 times:

I wonder if the traffic between Buenos Aires and Cordoba/Rosario makes this economically viable. I read somewhere that Rio-Sao Paulo (which has 80-90 daily flights each direction - a much bigger traffic) might not have the amount of pax to guarantee this investment at the moment, would BUE-ROS/COR have? 8 daily seems very few to such an expensive operation.

User currently offlineSignol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 3005 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

Rio - Sao Paulo has much more mountainous terrain, making it much more difficult, and expensive, to build a high-speed railway line. Therefore, even with a higher forecast passenger load, the cost-benefit would be lower due to the higher construction cost.
What would be good is a rail link EZE-city centre (I did it once on a suburban train, then a local bus, but I forget at which local station the interchange was).

signol



Flights booked: none :(
User currently offlineGorgos From Greece, joined Dec 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4232 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
600 miles is probably far enough that rail won't be much of a threat to air service on AEP-MDZ... the other proposals seem more interesting.

That doesnt stop the argentineans of massivly taking the bus!

During my stay in Bs As we also took the bus to Mendoza, Mar del Plata en Cordoba. Of course the busses were super luxurious (and cheap).

I think it makes sense to add HSR, but it will only compete if it stays within a certain price. If anything, maybe the HSR will compete more with busses then with airplanes, probably both.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4192 times:



Quoting Signol (Reply 6):
What would be good is a rail link EZE-city centre (I did it once on a suburban train, then a local bus, but I forget at which local station the interchange was).

Definitely. Even more so when you realize existing rail track is merely a few kilometers away from Ezeiza. However, these kind of investments are pretty difficult in Argentina, the current situation on AP1 isn't that bad when you take a taxi. However, I agree the public bus (#86) takes ages to get there, a rail line would be a much better alternative for people that need to get to work at EZE.

Quoting Gorgos (Reply 7):
During my stay in Bs As we also took the bus to Mendoza, Mar del Plata en Cordoba. Of course the busses were super luxurious (and cheap).

The bus network in Argentina is excellent, like Chile and Brazil. But don't forget tickets aren't exactly cheap. They might be for foreigners, but peso-wise they are expensive. When I unscientifically convert it to purchasing power in Euro, tickets from Buenos Aires to Mendoza are well over 100 euro's in the cheapest class over 200 euro's in the most expensive class. And that is one way! If you compare that to Europe (or the US), for those prices you would very well be able to purchase a ticket on both low costs as well as legacy airlines for a distance of around 1000km. So when you look at the entire picture, bus travel in Argentina is indeed extremely well organized, but not exactly cheap.
However, if a train can cut the necessary overnight trip of 12+ hours to say 5 hours for around the same price, I reckon there is enough demand to warrant such a route.

Córdoba - Buenos Aires is indeed a much stronger route, the AP9 is under construction at the moment and near completion if I am not mistaking, this will cut travel times by bus, so also here the train will indeed see stiff competition.


User currently offlineGorgos From Greece, joined Dec 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4098 times:

Of course PH-KLM, but when converting busfare prices to purchasing power, I would expect the airfare conversions to be even more extreme compared to EU incomes.

Im happy and surprised to hear about these developments, as I didnt expect the internal market and economy to validate such a big investment. HSR isnt the cheapest thing around. Great for Argentina.


User currently offlineGorgos From Greece, joined Dec 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7193511.stm

Bs As - Cordoba, from 14 hrs to 3hrs, at 300kph. Fabulous. Indeed directly competing with airlines.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4026 times:

Doesn't Argentina have narrow gauge (1000mm) railways? Meaning the new trains won't be compatible with existing infrastructure.

Not that that will be a massive issue.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 4005 times:



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 11):
Not that that will be a massive issue

Exactly. Alstom's TGV will have a completely different safety and power system and there is no need to run on existing track anywhere. Currently, AFAIK Argentina does not feature any electrified tracks except for the Buenos Aires Subte (metro). Furthermore, I think there is no automated rail security system in place in Argentina (only automated signals). Like many other Western systems a TGV driver cannot ignore a red signal as the train will enforce a stop on its own, so new tracks have to be built anyway.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 11):
Doesn't Argentina have narrow gauge (1000mm) railways

Both, Argentina has narrow and standard gauge railway lines. For exactly this reason the Retiro train station in Buenos Aires has two terminals, one for the narrow gauge rail and one for the standard gauge.


User currently offlineComeflywithme From Argentina, joined Sep 2006, 265 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3984 times:



Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
Anyone who's ever been to Argentina knows that this will never be done on schedule. If this line is up and running in 6 years I'd be surprised.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I have seen a sea of change in Argentina over the last few years and all for the good I might add, and one of the main reasons for me moving here on a permanent basis.The economy is improving and new developments are moving along at a fast pace.Don't dismiss it so easily.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3975 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
600 miles is probably far enough that rail won't be much of a threat to air service on AEP-MDZ... the other proposals seem more interesting.

MDZ is closer to SCL, that distancewise the high-speed train service would make more sense between those 2 cities than between MDZ and capital federal.
Rightnow, because the bus services are that good between Bs As and Cordoba, very few people take the train.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3970 times:



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 12):
Exactly. Alstom's TGV will have a completely different safety and power system and there is no need to run on existing track anywhere. Currently, AFAIK Argentina does not feature any electrified tracks except for the Buenos Aires Subte (metro). Furthermore, I think there is no automated rail security system in place in Argentina (only automated signals). Like many other Western systems a TGV driver cannot ignore a red signal as the train will enforce a stop on its own, so new tracks have to be built anyway.

Was just thinking it can be helpful to use existing tracks (with slight modifications) to offer even better connections. Like what goes on in France.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3965 times:



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 15):
Was just thinking it can be helpful to use existing tracks (with slight modifications) to offer even better connections. Like what goes on in France.

But has a well developed rail network with existing safety systems compatible to the TGV's systems. And they are electrified as well. This is not the case in Argentina: there is no "feeder network".
I think we're going a little OT here; as this is A.net and not trains.net; though I always enjoy these HST discussions.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23019 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week ago) and read 3873 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 14):
MDZ is closer to SCL, that distancewise the high-speed train service would make more sense between those 2 cities than between MDZ and capital federal.

There's a (terribly neglected) rail line at least from Santiago to the border... it runs along the road up by the Los Libertadores tunnel. I don't think there's any hope of making that corridor high speed, however, because of the mountains.

Quoting Gorgos (Reply 7):
That doesnt stop the argentineans of massivly taking the bus!

Agreed. High speed rail is certainly a threat to the bus, but I think its impact will be much larger there than on the airlines.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26495 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week ago) and read 3807 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):

600 miles is probably far enough that rail won't be much of a threat to air service on AEP-MDZ..

At 200 mph, that is only 3 hours

Quoting Pope (Reply 4):

Anyone who's ever been to Argentina knows that this will never be done on schedule.

The French tend to do train things on schedule.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 12):
Like many other Western systems a TGV driver cannot ignore a red signal as the train will enforce a stop on its own, so new tracks have to be built anyway.

The signaling is in-cab anyway.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 12):
Like many other Western systems a TGV driver cannot ignore a red signal as the train will enforce a stop on its own, so new tracks have to be built anyway.

The signaling is in-cab anyway.

Only on the LGVs I believe.

[Edited 2008-01-17 09:22:46]

User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3727 times:



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 19):
Only on the LGVs I believe

As far as I know France has its entire network fitted with automated train protection systems, TVM on the TGV lines, the dated Crocodile and KVB on other lines. The systems enforce an automated stop if the driver passes a signal that is unsafe.
The problem in Europe is that trains must be able to coop with a large array of safety systems, hence ETCS that eventually should replace all systems in Europe.
Argentina does likely not have such systems, and that is fine as rail traffic is much less dense and trains run much slower. The LGV line in Argentina can be equipped with the French system, which is basically flawless.

Back to air travel, AEP-COR is likely cut in a few years or moved to AEP-EZE for connecting pax. The same is true for Rosario - AEP. MDZ - AEP is a different animal because it requires some extensive track building and I reckon it's wise for the Argentineans to first see what the success of COR-BUE will be.

And don't say it can't happen in Argentina. It's a capable country at its roots.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26495 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3727 times:



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 19):

Only on the LGVs I believe.

That would be the case with the Argentina trains too.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23019 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3682 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
At 200 mph, that is only 3 hours

Yes, but the Cordoba corridor isn't going to run at 200 mph. At the speeds you're talking about, you're looking at something like the current train time from Chicago to St. Louis, admittedly not a perfect analog but certainly a corridor with plenty of air demand.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLV-ARG From Argentina, joined Sep 2001, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Only the BUE-COR route might have trouble, since Rosario is ony served by one airline, Sol, with Saab 340

User currently offlineFLY2LIM From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1184 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3516 times:



Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
The service is planned to start in 3 years by 8 double decker trains per day both ways.

Anyone who's ever been to Argentina knows that this will never be done on schedule. If this line is up and running in 6 years I'd be surprised.

I would not be surprised, not at all. I would be SHOCKED. And let's not forget, it won't be on time and it won't be within the predicted budget. Those of us who have grown up under the rule of inefficiency, bureaucracy, red tape, corruption, and all the things that have plagued our countries know that the likelihood is that this project will take decades, and may never happen at all.
I have watched that wonderful country called Argentina suffer through military rule, out of control inflation, economic recovery, only to return to financial ruin. Over the last 30 years it's been cycles that go up, down, up, down. If anything, Argentina is unpredictable. It's really too bad because it's one of the South American countries with the most potential and with a population that has an incredible ability to survive every disaster it suffers. I have great respect for my Argentinian amigos.

Quoting Comeflywithme (Reply 13):
I have seen a sea of change in Argentina over the last few years and all for the good I might add, and one of the main reasons for me moving here on a permanent basis.The economy is improving and new developments are moving along at a fast pace.Don't dismiss it so easily.

I would tell you not to let it "brainwash" you so easily. Latin governments are like drug addicts. Every once in a while, one of them "sobers up" and shows change, but many fall back into their old habits. No country in South America has shown more change recently than Peru, yet it continues to be a country where the poor are poor and the rich get richer, despite an incredible economy.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 16):
I think we're going a little OT here; as this is A.net and not trains.net; though I always enjoy these HST discussions.

I politely disagree that we are OT. The viability, speed, timeliness, and efficiency of the train would directly impact traffic in a country like Argentina. Just because we are discussing the train does not mean that we aren't focusing on the matter at hand.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):

The French tend to do train things on schedule.

No disrespect to the French, but they are only as good as the government they are dealing with. All around LIM stands the relic of what was once our future "metro," a project that included, among others, the French. The pylons remain all over the city but the train never became a reality. This is not an attack on the French, they sure know how to build excellent HST systems. This is an attack on the corruption facing any project in a country in Latin America.

FLY2LIM



Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
25 Post contains images MD11junkie : BUE-MDZ is ARS 128 (EUR 26.95) each leg, when bought round trip there's usually a 5-10% discount on the final price. Supposing you bought the two leg
26 Vincewy : It isn't, in fact, it's outragiously expensive, but the long term cost of not building it is even greater. Not long ago before Taiwan got its HSR, th
27 N1120A : The current train time between Chicago and St. Louis is about 5.5 hours on conventional lines, not 3-3.5 as would be a 600 mile run on an LGV line.
28 Post contains images Centrair : Certainly pissed off JL and NH when Japan Rail upped the speed of the Shinkansen. The target is 4 hours or less. If it can be done in 4 hours or less
29 Cubsrule : Correct, but again, we're not looking at a (dual track) LGV line.
30 Vincewy : This is definitely valid but for someone traveling from Shizuoka to Fukuoka, Shinkansen wins as people won't have to go through major cities to fly (
31 Cubsrule : Thinking about the U.S., I think 4 hours on the ground (either by train or by car, which is effectively the same here) is about the point above which
32 Centrair : The only NGO-Tokyo flights are to NRT and in most cases you MUST connect to an international flight. The only exception I believe is one of the NH fl
33 Post contains images RayChuang : They're really going to build a maglev Shinkansen line from Tokyo Station to (probably) Shin Osaka station? Can you imagine travel times of just over
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